The Instigator
Speedrace
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Jukebox101
Con (against)
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Is Premillennialism Valid?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 412 times Debate No: 120574
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
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Speedrace

Pro

I will be arguing that premillennialism is the plan outlined in the Bible. Specifically, I will argue that after the Rapture, There will be a 1, 000-year reign of Jesus on the earth.

The burden of proof is on both of us, And as such, I will lay out my evidence below.

The Bible says that, After the devil has been dealt with, Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years.

Revelations 20:4

"And I saw thrones, And they sat upon them, And judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, And for the word of God, And which had not worshipped the beast, Neither his image, Neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, Or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "

Amillennialism proposes that we are in the millennium right now. However, That would mean that EVERYONE, Not just those who worship God, Would be part of those thousand years. However, The scripture specifically states that it is those who worship Christ that will be there.


There really is not much else to say until you lay out your argument, So I will hand over the floor to you.
Jukebox101

Con

I will be arguing that amillenialism is taught biblically. This includes the view that we are in the thousand year period talked about in Revelation right now.

First, I would like to give my own problems with premillenialism, Then respond to yours.

1. Evil in the millenium

Lets grant for a moment that premillenialism is true. This means that Jesus Christ returns to judge the world in Rev. 19 and sets up His millenial reign in Rev. 20. But what happens at the end of Christ's millenial rule over the earth? According to Rev. 20:7-10, Satan is released from the abyss and immediately goes out to the four corners of the earth to deceive the nations (those same nations which have already been judged, According to Rev 19:15). Satan organizes them for battle against the camp of God's people and the city God loves, I. E. Jerusalem. This revolt ends when fire comes down from heaven and consumes the rebels along with the devil, Who deceived them. But this begs the question, Who are these people who are deceived by Satan, Who then revolt against God, Only to be consumed by fire from heaven?

I thought that only those who worship Christ would be there. . .

2. A rapture before the millenium is unbiblical

First, The idea of a pre-tribulational rapture seems to disagree with John 17:15. Also, Point B, Below.

Second, If the rapture is a true biblical teaching, Why was it not well known and popularized until the 20th century?

Third, the church and the wicked will continue to live together until the end of the world.

A. Matthew, Chapter 13. In this chapter, Jesus is telling a parable and teaching a lesson concerning the events of the last days and the second coming:

Matthew 13:24-30. . . 'Another parable put he forth unto them, Saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, His enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, And went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, And brought forth fruit, Then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; [NO] lest while ye gather up the tares, Ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, And bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. '

What are we told in the pre-tribulation rapture theory? We are told that Christ will "gather" His people BEFORE the tribulation and separate the "wheat and the tares" BEFORE the harvest. And yet what does it clearly state in the Bible verse above? That the separation only takes place AT the harvest.

"Oh but the rapture IS the harvest! "

Ok. So according to those who hold to the pre-trib rapture theory, The harvest takes place BEFORE the tribulation and BEFORE the end of the world. This is clearly what they believe because according to this teaching, The world continues for another 7 years and then another 1000 years AFTER the rapture. Well, What does Christ Jesus our Teacher say about this?

Matthew 13:38-40. . . 'The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. '

The church and the wicked continue to live together on earth until the END OF THE WORLD. And it is only at the end of the world that the separation takes place. The pre-trib rapture theory seems to not hold.

Please understand this point. The rapture theory teaches a separation BEFORE the end. But the Bible clearly teaches that there is NO separation before the end.

B.
Take a look at these Bible verses and you will notice that the focus is NOT about the church being taken away before the end, But rather AT the end of the world and the LAST DAY.

John 6:40. . . 'And this is the will of him that sent me, That every one which seeth the Son, And believeth on him, May have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. '

John 11:24. . . 'Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. '

John 12:48. . . 'He that rejecteth me, And receiveth not my words, Hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, The same shall judge him in the last day. '

Eternal life is given on the last day. The resurrection happens on the last day. Judgment is given on the last day.

Notice also what Jesus says in Matthew 28:20. . . "lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. " . . . Now why would Jesus reassure us that He would be with us until the END OF THE WORLD, If we were to be raptured away BEFORE the end of the world? Doesn't seem to make sense. . .

A pre-tribulational rapture is a vital part of premillenialism, So disproving that can mean the falling apart of the theory as a whole.

Also, Revelation is apoctalyptic literature. A 1000 years denotes a symbolism of a time period.


Now for your points:


The Bible says that, After the devil has been dealt with, Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years.

It is very important to note that the text does NOT say He will reign ON EARTH. If it does, Please show. Amillenialism proposes a current HEAVENLY reign. We believe that when Christ defeated death, That Satan was bound, And cannot deceive the nations now (basically, His power is limited). So, After the devil was bound, Just as Revelation says, Christ began His heavenly reign (ascension) and is reigning from heaven, Not on earth (Which, I remind you, "His kingdom is not of this world").

Amillennialism proposes that we are in the millennium right now. However, That would mean that EVERYONE, Not just those who worship God, Would be part of those thousand years. However, The scripture specifically states that it is those who worship Christ that will be there.

Unbelievers aren't part of the kingdom of Jesus. That is His church. So if Christ is reigning now, Believers are part of (spiritually) that reign/kingdom, And others are not. It is consistent.

-Juke

Debate Round No. 1
Speedrace

Pro

"I thought that only those who worship Christ would be there. . . "

I will explain this further below, But after the seven-year tribulation, Those who were born during that tribulation will still have the option to sin, And because they will have physical bodies, They will also be able to reproduce and make more people with the option to sin.

"The idea of a pre-tribulational rapture seems to disagree with John 17:15. "

Can you explain how?

"If the rapture is a true biblical teaching, Why was it not well known and popularized until the 20th century? "

This is an argumentum ad populum; the popularity of a teaching does not determine its validity.

"What are we told in the pre-tribulation rapture theory? We are told that Christ will "gather" His people BEFORE the tribulation and separate the "wheat and the tares" BEFORE the harvest. And yet what does it clearly state in the Bible verse above? That the separation only takes place AT the harvest. "

The final separation, Where believers go to heaven and non-believers are burned, Happens after the millennium, In our view. Before that, However, There is still an option to become a believer.

"Now why would Jesus reassure us that He would be with us until the END OF THE WORLD, If we were to be raptured away BEFORE the end of the world? Doesn't seem to make sense. . . "

This argument makes no sense. How does us being raptured invalidate Jesus' statement that he will be with us until the end of the world?

"Eternal life is given on the last day. The resurrection happens on the last day. Judgment is given on the last day. "

Where in the premillennialist view disagrees with this? The last day of the millennium, Then Judgement will be given on those who don't believe.

"A 1000 years denotes a symbolism of a time period. "

Can you prove this?

"It is very important to note that the text does NOT say He will reign ON EARTH. If it does, Please show. "

Isaiah 65:19-25

"

I will rejoice in Jerusalem,

And joy in My people;

The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,

Nor the voice of crying.

20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,

Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;

For the child shall die one hundred years old,

But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 Eze 28:26 Eze 45:4 Ho 11:11 Am 9:14

">jThey shall build houses and inhabit them;

They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22 They shall not build and another inhabit;

They shall not plant and another eat;

For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,

And elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labor in vain,

Nor bring forth children for trouble;

For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord,

And their offspring with them.

24 “It shall come to pass

That before they call, I will answer;

And while they are still speaking, I will hear.

25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,

The lion shall eat straw like the ox,

And dust shall be the serpent’s food.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, ”

Says the Lord. "

"My holy mountain" refers to Jerusalem specifically, As shown in scriptures such as Isaiah 11:9 and Isaiah 57:13. But why is the Bible talking about animals if everyone, At this time, Should be in heaven, According to the amillennialist view?

"Unbelievers aren't part of the kingdom of Jesus. That is His church. So if Christ is reigning now, Believers are part of (spiritually) that reign/kingdom, And others are not. It is consistent. "

It says that those who rejected the devil and accepted Jesus would REIGN during those thousand years.

Reign: hold royal office

How many believers do you know in a royal office?

Besides this, That scripture makes NO mention of any sinners, Yet if we were in the 1, 000 year period NOW, That would be inconsistent because we have sinners around us everywhere.



*My Argument*

Revelation 20:1-3:

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, A having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, The serpent of old, Who is the devil and Satan, And bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, And shut it and sealed it over him, So that he would not deceive the nations any longer, Until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. "

Now, If we are in those thousand years, That means that Satan is unable to deceive us RIGHT NOW. However, Why then would we be warned about him?

1 Peter 5:8:

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, Seeking someone to devour. "

Besides this, The point of view is of an angel coming DOWN FROM HEAVEN, Showing that the point of view is ON THE EARTH. There is no shift in point of view from here to 4-6, So why wouldn't the thrones mentioned there be on the earth?

As to Isaiah 65:19-25 that I pasted above, How would we be cursed and dying if we are in the 1, 000 year period right now? It simply does not makes sense.



To elaborate on the points I made at the beginning, People will be able to accept Jesus during the tribulation.

"An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people. ” Daniel's people are the Jews, The nation of Israel, And Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, To put an end to sin, To atone for wickedness, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. ” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, Or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years. ) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), Beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, The Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. "

https://www. Gotquestions. Org/tribulation. Html

This shows the validity of a tribulation. Because the people during that time will have the ability to have children, Do you think God is going to simply let those innocent children die? No.

Joshua 24:15:

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, Choose this day whom you will serve"

Everyone must have a chance to choose Jesus, But little children are not mature enough to do this. This shows that God cannot simply pluck the tribulation children and put them into heaven; they must make their own choice.

Over to you.

Jukebox101

Con

First, Your arguments.

Now, If we are in those thousand years, That means that Satan is unable to deceive us RIGHT NOW. However, Why then would we be warned about him?

Simple. The apostle John told us in Revelation 20 what this binding of Satan actually entails. Confined to the abyss, The devil is no longer free to deceive the nations until he is released before the end (20:3). This does not mean that the binding of Satan prevents all forms of satanic activity in this age. In fact, John also told us that it is precisely because Satan has been cast down (bound to the abyss) that he is filled with fury because he knows his time is short. Jesus Christ crushed the serpent's head. The Savior made a "public spectacle" of him on Calvary (Col. 2:15). Defeated and humiliated, The devil is enraged and is now behaving like a wounded animal trying to avoid capture. But, Satan's continuing attempts to organize the nations against Christ and his kingdom are restrained until he is released from the abyss. Only then can he organize the nations in revolt against Christ, Bringing about the apostasy predicted by John and Paul.


Joshua 24:15:"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, Choose this day whom you will serve"Everyone must have a chance

You completely took this verse out of context. This is for Israel, At a certain time! You're randomly applying this verse to the tribulation!



I apologize, I have to post this now to to the shortage of time I have due to other things in my life.
Debate Round No. 2
Speedrace

Pro

"Simple. The apostle John told us in Revelation 20 what this binding of Satan actually entails. Confined to the abyss, The devil is no longer free to deceive the nations until he is released before the end (20:3). This does not mean that the binding of Satan prevents all forms of satanic activity in this age. "

You ignored the verse that I gave:

1 Peter 5:8:

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, Seeking someone to devour. "

You cannot "seek" from a bottomless pit. Besides this, No single fallen angel is referred to as THE devil except Lucifer.

"You completely took this verse out of context. This is for Israel, At a certain time! You're randomly applying this verse to the tribulation! "

It is still applicable to modern Christians! However, I will provide more verses if you insist:

2 Peter 3:9:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, But is patient toward you, Not wishing that any should perish, But that all should reach repentance. "

John 1:12:

"But to all who did receive him, Who believed in his name, He gave the right to become children of God, "

Matthew 6:24:


“No one can serve two masters, For either he will hate the one and love the other, Or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. "

I realize that this one is talking about money, But it's still applicable.


I will now give you time to respond to the rest the arguments you didn't respond to.
Jukebox101

Con

Jukebox101 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Speedrace

Pro

Con forfeited.

My points still stand.
Jukebox101

Con

Jukebox101 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Speedrace

Pro

Con forfeited. My points still stand.
Jukebox101

Con

oof. Limited time stinks.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
It's fine!
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
Again, I apologize for not completing this debate. I took it at a bad time (voters) and mad that mistake.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
Yeah I was wondering about that @melcharaz. . .
Posted by melcharaz 3 years ago
melcharaz
if we are in the milleninal reign then why is there destruction in jerusalem? Zechariah 13-14 chapters and isaiah 11, 64 chapters talk about how there is peace during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. .

and again.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, And the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, Saith the LORD

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, And his name one.

also the temple that is talked about in Ezekiel 40-46 isn't built. Which is clearly the temple that will be built in the mellinium
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
Alrighty, I look forward to it ;)
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
ill have an argument by the end of today or tomorrow, So good luck ;)
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
Yeah :D

Let's do this!
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
ya, Thisle be an interesting exchange
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
Ayyyyy
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