The Instigator
YeshuaBought
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
judaism
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Is "eternal security" Biblical?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
judaism
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/6/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,532 times Debate No: 113554
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (46)
Votes (1)

 

YeshuaBought

Pro

Eternal security, or once saved, always saved is the religious doctrine that once you are saved by Yeshua, you are always saved. Yeshua is the Hebrew Name for Jesus and the word for Salvation, and is what I prefer to call Him. Since I am taking the positive position, I bear the burden of proof gladly.
judaism

Con

Shabbat is over, that's why I'm on the internet, just in case anyone's wondering. Okay, with that aside, does Jesus do away with all sins once you've accepted him?

Of course not.

Is "eternal security" biblical? You won't find it in the Jewish Bible, so, no. Can it be? Okay, let's theorize that for a moment, to believe that that's the case, one would have to assume that 6 million Jews - who didn't know Jesus - where send to hell, whereas Nazis who accepted Jesus - even before the Shoah took place - are reserved their place in heaven.

Is this god merciful? Is he just? Is he even logical!

No. This god is not merciful because he doesn't care for what you've done right, he only cares if you're saved because you happen to be born Christian. Is he just? No, because he'd happily send 6 million Jews to hell. . . you call that just? If he logical? No. Nothing more needs said.

Thankfully, though, this is not the real G-d, the one found in Scripture.
Debate Round No. 1
YeshuaBought

Pro

I love Shabbat. Anyway, I want to present some evidence for you. I will call Him Jesus for this debate, and use the New King James Version of the Bible with links from biblegateway.com and got questions.org. https://www.gotquestions.org... Ephesians 4:30: https://www.biblegateway.com... This verse says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of remption. To seal someone mean Holy Spirit keeps them secure until that day that Yeshua/ Jesus redeems them. Philippians 1:6: https://www.biblegateway.com... : God always finishes what He starts. That means He will complete the good work He began in His sheep or beliers. John 6:39: https://www.biblegateway.com... Yeshua/Jesus never loses His sheep. John 10:29: https://www.biblegateway.com... According to this scripture, no one can steal Yeshua/Jesus' sheep from Him. Romans 5:10: https://www.biblegateway.com... This verse while on the surface NOT about eternal security shows that we are saved by the life that Yeshua/Jesus lives, not our ability to maintain our salvation, or live a good life. Hebrews 12:2: https://www.biblegateway.com... Yeshua/Jesus authors, and finishes our faith, not us.
judaism

Con

YeshuaBought, I see your point, but still. . . you have to admit that this god, the one seen in the NT, is not the G-d of the Hebrew Bible; in this case, Marcion was right.

Nevertheless, you can't run away from my arguments, I hope you can respond shortly to them.

Secondly, since I don't believe in the NT, those statements mean nothing to me. Can you prove this concept using Tanakh (Christian "Old Testament") only?
Debate Round No. 2
YeshuaBought

Pro

Bpth testements are to the Jew first, and then the Greek (Gentile). Yeshua was a Hebrew Jewish Rabbi/Carpenter/God in Humand flesh, and can you prove the testaments preach two different Gods? I have been a Christian for over 20 years and never found evidence of this opinion.
judaism

Con

okay, I can prove this with Marcion of Sinope. Around 144, he theorized that the G-d of Torah and the god of the New Testament were two different gods. This is because he saw HaShem as just and cruel (like in punishing Pharaoh), and Jesus as all merciful. Marcion also thought that the Jewish G-d, by default, was just an ordinary tribal god (this is untrue entirely), and that the Jews could only gain His mercy through strict observance of the law. Marcion saw Jesus as the god of light, a universal Creator for all humanity who willingly gave himself up so that all other men (discounting Jews) could live free of sin. For him, HaShem was an evil Creator who designed and executed, the material universe, whereas the heavenly Father above (the god of the Gospels) was the god of truth and spirituality.

I do not agree with him on any point. HaShem is a merciful G-d of grace, compassion, and love.

Okay, now you must at least attempt a response to my earlier accusations. This is because the question shouldn't concern itself on whether or not this doctrine really occurs, but rather, if it is right for G-d to implement such a thing. For example, let's say John is truly convinced that Jesus is G-d, he's then saved. Tomorrow, he kills someone, is he still saved, even though he committed an act of murder? What if he goes on killing, does G-d forgive him every time? If this is the case, why even mention original sin (a concept unheard of in Judaism) when we can all just believe in Jesus? Moreover, what happens to those 6 million Jews who lived the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? They never knew Jesus, so do they just go to hell while Hitler, by the last breath let's say, accepts Jesus and is saved for all time, as if G-d just wiped away the stain of him having just murdered countless millions? Are we justified in calling such a Being G-d, All Goodness, and All Merciful?

To put it another way - and this is just for the sake of example - if I believed in Jesus, and then killed your family, would you be accepting of me still going to heaven? Is this philosophically sound?
Debate Round No. 3
YeshuaBought

Pro

Show me the scripture, not someone's opinion.
judaism

Con

Simple. Let's take the concept of the law being a curse and whether or not Paul honestly quoted from Deuteronomy.

See my link below, it's all original; a short five page document.

https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 4
YeshuaBought

Pro

Please show me scripture.
judaism

Con

YeshuaBought,

Enough of the delaying tactic, we should really start a new debate with the same concept in mind, sort of like Part 2.

"Please show me scripture." Did you open that document???? It's all there. Please take the time to read it; I can't post it all here as it'll simply take too much space.

Also, I am VERY disappointed in you not bothering a moment to answer anyone of my philosophical questions. Ya, I get it, that's kind of a side thing, the main debate was about proving if this thing you call "eternal security" is biblical, and it isn't, but still. . . let's say it was? What does that entail? These questions, nevertheless, are important to ask, and if I don't ask them, someone else will, and you'd better be prepared to answer them then. Just saying. Again, I mean no rudeness on my end, but you really should get your game together.

Thank you for debating, I hope someday you have answers to these things.

P.S. YeshuaBought, if you'd like, we can start a new debate or finish this in the comments section. Either way, let me know.

Shalom (peace)
Debate Round No. 5
46 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
@Dinis,

I'm just wondering if you've responded yet to my rebuttal.
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
@judaism sorry, I don"t get notified when you post. Ill get back to you later, and this is an inefficient form of communicating with you.
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
@judaism sorry, I don"t get notified when you post. Ill get back to you later, and this is an inefficient form of communicating with you.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
Dinis,

. . . They're silenced by the accuracy of G-d's word.

Sadly, many Christians entice Jews to join their Churches, in which already, 75% of all Messianic Jews aren't even Jewish by birth. It is a great horror that so many in the Jewish community are ready to abandon the sacred values and teachings of their fathers - who'd rather die at the point of a sword, or burn alive while the Inquisition sings joy - in favor of these artificial interpretations. The Torah warns us about this:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods, gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other.' Do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him." (Deuteronomy 13:6-8)

Yes, we as Jews have work to do. It is time for those who have left to come home, and it is time for our Christian friends to all know the truth of Scripture, so that the real Messiah may come speedily in our day, and the word of G-d, heard 'round the world as the waters cover the sea.
________

Footnote:

1. That's the correct verse in Ezekiel, my bad. As for Leviticus, the verse is 20:26, "And you shall be holy to Me, for I, Adonai, am holy, and I have distinguished you from the peoples, to be Mine."

But does this a;; mean that G-d doesn't love the rest of creation? No, for Isaiah 49:6 says:

"And G-d said, 'It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.'"
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
Dinis,

"'With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,' says Adonai, your Redeemer. 'This is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. The mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,' says Adonai, Who has mercy on you." (Isaiah 54:8-10)

"So said Adonai, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, Adonai of Hosts is His name. If these laws depart from Me, says Adonai, so will the seed of Israel cease being a nation before Me for all time. So said Adonai: If the heavens above will be measured and the foundations of the earth below will be fathomed, I too will reject all the seed of Israel because of all they did, says Adonai." (Jeremiah 31:34-36)

"And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their G-d." (Ezekiel 11:19-20) (1)

"And many peoples shall come, and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of Adonai, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths,' for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Adonai from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)

And if we're wrong, please explain to me this clear Messianic verse:

"So said HaShem of Hosts: In those days, ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the shirt of a Jew and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'"(Zechariah 8:23)

Perhaps you'll be the first? No Christian has ever been able to answe
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
@Dinis,

"So said Adonai of Hosts, the G-d of Israel, "Improve your ways and your deeds, I then will allow you to dwell in this place. Do not rely on false words, saying, "The Temple of Adonai, The Temple of Adonai, The Temple Adonai are they." If you improve your ways and your deeds, if you perform judgment between one man and his fellow man, you do not oppress the stranger, an orphan, or a widow, and you do not shed innocent blood in this place, and you do not follow other gods for your detriment. I will then allow you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave your forefathers from days of yore to eternity. . . So says Adonai of Hosts, the G-d of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings upon your sacrifices and eat flesh; for neither did I speak with your forefathers nor did I command them on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning a burnt offering or a sacrifice. This thing did I command them saying, "Listen to Me so that I am your G-d and you are My people, you walk in all the ways that I command you. . . .'" (Jeremiah 7:3-7, 21-23)
That is truly amazing. How come Jeremiah didn't mention Jesus by name? How come he depicts G-d as being abhorred to blood sacrifices? This is truly something you must question, after all, the prophet shouts against the centuries of Church teaching! How come the prophet chose to mention Israel's eventual union with G-d, and not a spiritual nation? How come he didn't make mention of the Holy Spirit?

I offer you a few more passages below:
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
@Dinis,

"I have to say; If a man sends away his wife, and she goes away from him, and marries another man, may he return to her again? Will not the land become defiled? But you have played the harlot with many lovers, yet return to Me, says Adonai." (Jeremiah 3:1)

Jeremiah goes on to make this statement five more times, and what should the children of Israel do when they're ready to receive Him?

" Just cry out to Me, "My Father, you are the Master of my youth!" (Jeremiah 3:4)

But I thought G-d was angry with us? Why would He buy us back? The prophet again has the answer:

"Will He remain angry forever? Will He keep it to eternity?" (Jeremiah 3:5)

Jeremiah ends with a promise of comfort:

"Return, backsliding children, says Adonai, for I possessed you, and I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion." (Jeremiah 3:14)

Yes, G-d will never forget us. In the next passage, be watchful of what the Almighty commands of us, it is not the blood of Jesus, but ultimate mercy to all creatures of earth:
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
@Dinis,

I would not look to the Bible of 1611 for help, it is a terrible translation. For example, it translates "purity" (nash-ku bar) as "kiss the Son." The Hebrew "bar" means "pure" or "clear;" is never means son. In Aramaic, however, "bar" is a construct, or "son of," as seen in verses such as Proverbs 31:2, Ezra 5:1-2, and 6:14. "Son," in its absolute form is "ber'a." Hence, if the mistranslation is right, the Hebrew should have read as "nash-ku ber'a," and not as it does, "nash-ku bar," or, in English, "kiss the son of. . ." and no, it's not David, for this translation would be improper. Back in verse 7, the Hebrew noun "bayn," or "son" is "do homage in purity." What does kissing mean in this context? It's an expression of homage, like in 1 Samuel 10:1, "Then Samuel took the vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him." Hence, "Bar" is "pure in heart." Psalms 24:4 and 73:1 agree with this view. Now just think of it, should we kiss purity lest it be angry? Does this make any sense? The meaning of the passage isn't telling us to kiss Jesus, it's telling us that if we live righteously, and are humble in our ways, we will acknowledge David, G-d's anointed Messiah (not the Messiah, but "a" Messiah), and as a result, avoid His wrath. Do not deceive yourself into believing that this Psalm means anything but "do homage in purity."

But that's just an example of how well the King James did in screwing things up. It's a terrible translation, if you think I'm lying, just check with the Dead Sea Scrolls, the records are as clear as day, whether or not the Church was deceptive or indirectly pulling something is besides the point. Therefore, if we can't trust the King James on accurately translating Psalm 2:12, why take a chance and think it's doing better with Sheol? Sheol, in biblical Hebrew, always means grave, hands down. It never means hell. In that, I agree with you.

Now onto your last point. Would G-d abandon His "firstborn" (Exodus 4:22)?
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
@Dinis,

Saying that the Israelites angered G-d only gives ammunition to Jesus' words in John 8:44, "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning. . . ."

Is hell symbolic? Well, even we believe a place called Gehinnom, were the extreme wicked, the likes of Hitler, spend eternity. As far as Job is concerned, reading in context, it makes no such claim. Job isn't talking about hell, but a separation from his Maker. Sheol is a place of soul purification, it lasts about 11 months, at least we don't say Kaddish for twelve! Now I get it, you won't believe in any of that because it's all talmudic, but I've offered my best.
Posted by Dinis 3 years ago
Dinis
*mean a place of fury torture.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Leaning 3 years ago
Leaning
YeshuaBoughtjudaismTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pros argument for eternal security is basically some other guys said we get eternal security. Con noted this was illogical, as in what if a man believed but then murdered some person, why would he be automatically saved because of one initial belief and acceptance of the deity, do none of his actions later matter? If anyone thinks my vote is flawed or biased let me know and I'll try to do better next time. Also if you don't like the results of the vote, let me know and I'll encourage someone else to vote as well.

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