The Instigator
BobRogan
Pro (for)
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The Contender
dukeofpanda
Con (against)
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Is it Right to be Gay?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/27/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 648 times Debate No: 113202
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (9)
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BobRogan

Pro

Please only take this debate if you're religious. Thank you.

I am an atheist, and as an atheist, I believe that we don't need a God to tell us right from wrong. We can instead use logic and reason to figure out what is morally correct. I believe it is okay to do something as long as it won't hurt anyone, including yourself. Only in very rare circumstances would I think it was okay to cause someone pain. Self-defense is one of those circumstances, for example.

Now I would like my opponent to answer me these 4 questions below in their response. They're questions on why a certain action is right or wrong. In your answer, I'd like you to use logic and reason to answer these questions, and to not say "so-and-so is morally incorrect because God said so." Nor can they be answered, "it's wrong because it just is." Again, use LOGIC and REASON to answer these questions. Actually THINK about why it is wrong or right to do a certain action. (For those who are confused as to why I haven't mentioned homosexuality yet, that part is coming soon).

Here are the questions:

Question 1: Why shouldn't we murder?

Question 2: Why shouldn't we steal from others?

Question 3: Why is slavery wrong?

Question 4: Why is homosexuality wrong?
dukeofpanda

Con

I think a lot of people get confused as to the nature of God which in turn creates confusion in regard to the spirit and reason behind his commands. Human constructs of religious institutions are usually to blame for the rigid dogmatic approach to rules and the personage of God. Even Jesus criticized the religious leaders for doing this and misrepresenting God, so it is reasonable for you and anyone else to question the religious standards by which many live.

Matthew 22. When Jesus was asked what are the greatest of all the commands he stated, "to love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. The second is to love your neighbor as yourself."

I mention this quote because it highlights the importance of LOVE as the guiding principle of God's commands. You see, God has 4 cardinal attributes in which Christians believe he posses to the infinite degree and they are: Power, Justice, Wisdom and most importantly Love.

The answers to your questions involve feelings as much as they do reason and logic.

1) If I loved you I could not kill you because the absence of you would bring me great grief. If I loved the ones who loved you I could not deprive them of the joy of having you in their life. In fact God does not want any of us to die because he loves us, but according to the scriptures we have chosen death through our independence from God, the source of life. Regardless of the Bible, love would prevent you from murder.

2) Love would also prevent you from stealing. If I loved you I would not want to deprive you of the things that you need or make you happy. Conversely love would move you to freely give to your neighbor who was in need. Theft would not be necessary at all and would only spring from greed. Greed does not harmonize with love. That's why the Bible describes Love as, "patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests,does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things "

3) Again if there is love between people there is no way people could treat one another as less than human. Of course people will argue that slavery existed in the Bible. The slavery in the Bible was more similar to indentured servitude and the "slave" was set free at the end of the contract or during the Jubilee year. And it was more of a system that God regulated and tolerated rather than created, much like divorce. I can give you scriptural references to that if you wish, but it's quite lengthy and would deviate away from the immediate question. We can agree that forcing another person into slavery would be unloving, though.

4) Homosexuality is also wrong based on principles of love. The strictly scriptural explanation would say that God condemned it and out of Love for our heavenly father we would comply much like a child would comply to a parent's wishes out of Love for the parent despite the child's own feelings regarding the matter. Understanding why God might impose such a rule requires a little imagination and meditation. I will give my answer, please be patient, as my answer requires a bit of spiritual sensitivity.

The Bible describes God as having existed forever. This means he was alone. Alone to contemplate everything including the joys of existence and the ability to contemplate at all. What greater act of love than to share such a wonderful thing with others. Creation would be an act of Love. He created one thing first, his firstborn son, and with his son they would create other things. It makes me think of pouring a cement driveway with my own father. I love my father and creating and building things strengthens our bond; its a gift. To a Christian this type of love is further exemplified in the bond of having children. People have the ability to create children. This gift solidifies the bond of love between a couple, but this ability is only possible between a man and woman. Child rearing is an act of Love.

God's Love became so strong that he created life. He loved us so much he gave us the ability to create life as well. The ultimate culmination of Love is only possible in a heterosexual union. Homosexuality discards this most loving gift and is therefore wrong. In this same light having children out of wedlock is also wrong to Christians. All the rules in Christianity are founded on Principles of love.

But basically the wrongfulness of Homosexuality stems from God asked us not to so we comply out of love for our creator and homosexuality discards the loving gift of procreation that God gave us.

From a another standpoint a policy of strict homosexuality would result in the death of species without cloning.

I hope that's reasonable
Debate Round No. 1
BobRogan

Pro

Good job on your response. I appreciate your maturity in your response, and I have to say you"re a damn good writer. However, I do disagree with you on many of your points.

"If I loved you I could not kill you because the absence of you would bring me great grief. If I loved the ones who loved you I could not deprive them of the joy of having you in their life. In fact, God does not want any of us to die because he loves us, but according to the scriptures we have chosen death through our independence from God, the source of life. Regardless of the Bible, love would prevent you from murder."

I agree mostly with what you say. Part of the reason why I wouldn"t kill my mother is that I love her, but empathizing the person you murdered"s friends and family"s grief would be enough to prevent me from killing this person. My point here is that if there isn"t a God telling us not murder, we have enough reasons, such as guilt, to not kill someone. We think logically as to why we shouldn"t kill others.

"Love would also prevent you from stealing. If I loved you I would not want to deprive you of the things that you need or make you happy. Conversely love would move you to freely give to your neighbor who was in need. Theft would not be necessary at all and would only spring from greed. Greed does not harmonize with love. That's why the Bible describes Love as, "patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests,does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things""

I agree with you also. I"d like to add also that if I stole a painting that took the painter hours to paint and they wanted to keep it themselves, then I"d feel bad for taking something from someone that took a lot of time for them to make. Same goes for any other possession. Again, logic and reason tell us why we shouldn"t steal.

"Again if there is love between people there is no way people could treat one another as less than human. Of course people will argue that slavery existed in the Bible. The slavery in the Bible was more similar to indentured servitude and the "slave" was set free at the end of the contract or during the Jubilee year. And it was more of a system that God regulated and tolerated rather than created, much like divorce. I can give you scriptural references to that if you wish, but it's quite lengthy and would deviate away from the immediate question. We can agree that forcing another person into slavery would be unloving, though."

Once again, we agree on why we shouldn"t approve of slavery. It is unloving and we should treat everyone as equals. Again, we can use logic and reason to figure out that slavery isn"t good.

Now at the fourth question is where we disagree. Let"s say God was real. I can see why he condemned murder. I can see why he condemned theft. However, I can"t see any logical reason why he should condemn homosexuals. "The strictly scriptural explanation would say that God condemned it and out of Love for our heavenly father we would comply much like a child would comply to a parent's wishes out of Love for the parent despite the child's own feelings regarding the matter." Why should we comply with God"s wishes? If you ask me, he seems to be a fairly immoral person. God tried to kill every living thing on the planet in the Noah"s Ark story and for a very unjust reason. He commits genocide on multiple occasions. He permits slavery: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Jesus. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart." (Ephesians 6: 5-6). He thought it was okay to kill a woman if she touches a man"s private parts (Deuteronomy 25:11-1). I"m not obeying this guy as he sounds like a murdering psychopath!

"God's Love became so strong that he created life. He loved us so much he gave us the ability to create life as well. The ultimate culmination of Love is only possible in a heterosexual union. Homosexuality discards this most loving gift and is therefore wrong."

The thing that many Christians don"t realize about homosexuality is that it"s not a CHOICE to be attracted to the same sex. You are born that way. It"s like saying it"s wrong to have a deformity even though you were born with it. And if God didn"t want people to be gay, then why does he, an all-powerful being that controls everything, make people homosexuals if he hates them so much? It isn"t their fault they "discard" the gift of reproduction - it was God made them that way.

"From a another standpoint a policy of strict homosexuality would result in the death of species without cloning."

A world in which every human-being is a homosexual is highly unlikely. Besides, if there were only homosexuals, that doesn"t mean we"d go extinct. Gay men can still get women pregnant.

Why, logically, would it be bad to be a homosexual? You aren"t hurting anyone, so I say it"s okay.
dukeofpanda

Con

My answers to questions 1-3 were to show the reasonableness as to why God said so.

While you disagree with God's existence and uphold the reasonableness of why those things are still wrong, I would contest that not everybody agrees with you and I about those things being wrong. There are a lot of people in the world who fail to understand love in this regard. That's why God felt it necessary to enact laws to enforce those points. The Jews were idiots and hard-hearted. People today are idiots and equally hard-hearted. That's why we have laws because people can't be trusted to act on principle; or understand it at times.

As for question 4

I am a Christian and I do understand that homosexuality is, at times, not a choice. Romans chapter 7 discusses this.
Christians should understand that the effects of sin deprive of us of our choice in regard to the inclinations of our bodies.
Therefore humans don't always choose to be homosexual when it happens.

But I would like you to understand that God did not intend for this to be the case; he did not create us this way.
Another thing I'd like to clear up, especially to other atheists who might think similar to you, God does not CONTROL EVERYTHING the way you think he does. I'll explain these points.

The Christian understanding of the beginning of mankind is that it started with Adam and Eve. They were created Perfect, without sin, but that changed. Adam and Eve willfully broke the one rule they had and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. This is how sin entered the world and messed everything up since it would go on to affect all of humanity.

Now, a lot of "Christians" don't really understand what this was about and what the tree of knowledge of good and bad really was. The tree was a gift; a way for people to demonstrate their thanks, their love, their respect to God for creating everything for them, for being their father, and being their ruler. What else could they give God back except loyalty and God gave them the means to show it by doing what Fathers and governments do; make a rule. Like be home by 10pm, or Mow the lawn every Saturday, or Don't touch my Babe Ruth autographed baseball, or Don't eat from this tree. By following the rule mankind would show that they agreed and accepted God's standards of what was good and bad. That's what it was. And they didn't want it.

The first couple chose independence from God. They wanted to set the standards on what was good and bad. Maybe they agreed with God on some of those some of the time. Regardless, God let us make our own rules independent of him. We always had free will and we chose to be free from direct control by God. So, God has stepped away from us so that we can work out our freedom; see how it goes. God does not control everything and we are free to decide what is right and wrong. While the world exists the way it does because God allows it to, God doesn't directly control it. We do, under the influence of Satan.

Sin is the death dealing deformity we inherited when Adam and Eve chose independence from God and it also causes or inherent tendency to do things independent of God's standards.

The point is God did not intend for things to be the way they are; we were not originally created this way. We did this to ourselves. And God does not control everything. He has left us alone to experiment with independence.

We are free to choose what is right and wrong. If you think homosexuality is okay then it is. That's the bottom line. Now, society may dictate otherwise for any matter, but it's up to society to choose why. So, I guess I'm saying, it's your right to be gay and if you think it's right that's your right to believe so.

For Christians who want to reject independence from God and want to be slaves to God and Christ then it's wrong. But Christians need to understand that they don't have the right to impose their beliefs on others. God has allowed mankind to be independent and if Christians go around trying to force people to conform they are actually working against God's will and aren't really Christian. That being said, slavery to God is actually pretty good; it has great health benefits like not getting sick, or dying, and you get a nice place to live with all the food you can eat. That's the hope anyway.

Last thing, if a Christian is born gay it's not a sin. God understands our circumstances. But a gay Christian should never act upon his homosexual tendencies; its only a sin if they act upon the tendency. It can be tough, but if they love God and trust him they'll refrain the best they can. Heck, if you have a rage problem, or a propensity to lust after every pretty face you see, you'll need self control.
Debate Round No. 2
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
"Is it Right to be Gay?"... Well is it right to be not gay ?..Is it right for water to be a fluid..Is it right for an aple to fall down and not up ?
Posted by dukeofpanda 3 years ago
dukeofpanda
BobRogan asked for someone religious, so I humored them and approached it from that angle.

If you go to Jail for refusing to kill someone does it make murder right?

If the government decides that taking bribes is legal for them does it make it right?

Legality doesn't necessarily resolve issues of right and wrong
Posted by MasterMewtwo 3 years ago
MasterMewtwo
I would've just said murder and stealing are illegal and you'd probably go to jail for it.
Posted by jtlove 3 years ago
jtlove
Backwardsedan: I see you still have not gained any wisdom or common sense.
Pertaining to your statements...
1) Killing is wrong, but not according to God...God does not kill, He passes judgment just like a judge does in our court system and if your sins warrant death...then you will see death. It is no more killing than that of a judicial judge.

2) "And no supreme deity would ---ever--- have the want, need or desire for jealousy. (See there's where you are wrong...who are you to the God what is and is not acceptable? You don't even get to tell the President what is acceptable let alone, God.

2b) Even our judicial law doesn't allow for stealing just because you're poor. Where do you live that such a thing does is legal because your hungry?

3) Slavery is most defiantly wrong...The Slavery that is spoken of in Ex 21 is not the same as what took place here in America...A 4th grader could tell you that just from reading the text.

3b) ...but these go too far...(Says who, you...ROFL...who make you the moral authority?)

3c) As for you pretext video, look at the photo chart I uploaded. As you will see, a Jewish Slave had virtually the same rights as a free person.

4) Not only is homosexuality a perversion of nature, read Rom 1.28-31 and explain to me what it is saying?

NEWSFLASH: Here is your evidence
The Greek word is _6;^5;_5;^5;_4;a2;`2; (malakos), catamite. Cognate word: _6;^5;_5;^5;_4;^3;^5;

88.281 (2) catamite 1 Cor 6:9; passive homosexual partner

Polycarp 2nd Century Christian says in Poly 5.3" 3In like manner also the younger men must be blameless in all things, caring for purity before everything and curbing themselves from every evil. For it is a good thing to refrain from lusts in the world, for every lust warreth against the Spirit, and neither whoremongers nor effeminate persons nor defilers of themselves with men shall inherit the kingdom of God...

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by jtlove 3 years ago
jtlove
Using "Logic and Reason" why are the following wrong???

Question 1: Why shouldn't we murder? Murder is the absence of life, all human have a right to live unless the laws of the land have determined that because that individual violated another person's right to life.

Question 2: Why shouldn't we steal from others? Stealing/Robbing is taking without compensating the original owner. This is wrong because of the original owner/creator of the substance (material/intellectual) has labored in their efforts and are entitled to fair compensation for their labors. Stealing violates/robs the original owner of the compensation they are due.

Question 3: Why is slavery wrong? Slavery can be termed many different ways...some consider working in a "sweatshop" for lower than fair wages is slavery. So the word carries many many meanings and uses. To be addicted to something is considered to be a slave to that substance.

Slave
NOUN
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
synonyms: bondsman " bondswoman " bondservant " bondslave " serf " vassal "

a person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation.
synonyms: drudge " servant " general factotum " man/maid of all work " lackey

a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something.
"the poorest people of the world are slaves to the banks" " "she was no slave to fashion"

VERB
slaves (third person present) " slaved (past tense) " slaved (past participle) " slaving (present participle)
work

Question 4: Why is homosexuality wrong? Because it is an unnatural act, the human species cannot procreate through the means of homosexuality.

The scriptures that say these things are wrong... Rom 1.26-32, 1 Cor 6.9-10
Posted by Matty_G454 3 years ago
Matty_G454
Being gay is against the bible mainly but being gay is alright in my eyes but because your a man, you should act like one, nothing pisses me off more than a gay man trying to flirt with a guy whose straight which feels like sexual harassment. Therefore i think its alright as long as if they act mature about it unlike most gay guys i have seen.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
"20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money." There is 0 sane person that can possibly defend this for any reason. Here's a video about slavery in the bible and god fully endorsing it. It is a true travesty...
http://www.youtube.com... - Is there slavery in the bible?
"The slavery in the Bible was more similar to indentured servitude" Well your opponent who quoted that was just proven 100% false.
4. That's a very good question. There are absolutely no why's given in the bible and all your opponent did was make up excuses and flat out lie for something in which he clearly knows nothing about. And to prove it, I want him to show this exactly where he gets his information from in his bible and WHY homosexuality is wrong? Oh and oh yeah the word "homosexuality" was not inserted to his bible until a few of his translations in 1946.
I really cannot stand it when sheepish dog tail rat sheep fall asleep at the wheels WITHOUT EVIDENCE AND THEY KNOW IT and because they don't they wing it from their hips and lips in order to gain attention. NEWSFLASH: It didn't work.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@BobRogan - It is oh so crystal clear that you opponent dukeofpanda doesn't have the faintest clue as to what he is talking about and made stuff up as he *yawn and is very boring as the typical so-called christian does* rolls on down his twinkie spotlight hill.
1. god loves to kill and REALLY wants us to die especially if we break the sabbath, blaspheme, don't believe in him, curse at our parents, commit adultery, are gay, and he has committed atrocities all the time such as massive genocides for 0 reason at all which includes the deaths of babies and children and pregnant women which are abortions in which is a super massive contradiction as so-called christians are against abortions. Yep its all there in his bible point blank - if he were to have bothered to have read the damn thing. Nah. And then to not kill in being one of the 10 commandments well god wiped out nearly ALL LIFE according to the bible with the great flood (which never happened), so its perfectly OK for god to kill, but not man. So something is very screwy there in god being contradictory AND hypocritical. And for your opponent to actually believe its somehow "love" only shows how twisted and immoral he truly is. Killing is wrong, but not according to god.
2. Then the idiot says "Love is not jealous" Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:" And no supreme deity would ---ever--- have the want, need or desire for jealousy. Pathetic. At any rate, some need to steal because they are so far below the poverty line, and they cannot get help from anywhere that they require food in their and their families bellies as an example.
3. Slavery is most defiantly wrong. But its splattered all over the bible and is fully endorsed by god and christ and was never overturned by those two leading characters. EX 21: 20-21 are really disturbing verses, just as are many in the bible, but these go way way wayyyyyyy too far...
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