The Instigator
backwardseden
Con (against)
The Contender
dbox
Pro (for)

Is it moral that you should die if you are gay, Blaspheme, Worship other gods etc? God thinks so

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,153 times Debate No: 116987
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
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backwardseden

Con

This is not about what you THINK YOUR religion states, Especially christ who has nothing to do with this debate. So please do not bring in that ---whatever--- ringside. This is about how YOU think YOU stand and how moral YOU believe YOU are in accordance with what YOUR god states in HIS bible.

Here is a test for YOUR morality to see where YOU stand with YOUR god with how he believes from what is stated directly from the bible and or torah. It is a simple "yes" or "no" response. Right now there will only be asked a couple of things as this round only specifically deals with the threat of death. In other rounds, Should this debate get that far, A LOT more terrifying subjects will be asked of you and where you stand in accordance with your god.

* Do you think you should be put to death just because you blaspheme? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 24:16 "And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, He shall surely be put to death, And all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, As he that is born in the land, When he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, Shall be put to death. "
* Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, That soul shall be cut off from among his people. ", Numbers 15: 32-36 " And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, And unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, Because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, And stoned him with stones, And he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. " Notice jesus worked on the sabbath, He was not put to death. Strange? That supposed "law" that christians use is in ill effect and does not work.
* Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Exodus 21:17 "And he that curseth his father, Or his mother, Shall surely be put to death. , Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. ", Mark 7:10 "For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, Let him die the death:, Matthew 15:4 "For God commanded, Saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, Let him die the death. "
* Do you think you should die if you commit adultery? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, Even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, The adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. "
* Do you think you should die if you are a homosexual? Y___? N____? Your god thinks so. Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, As he lieth with a woman, Both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. "
* Do you think you should die if you worship other gods? Y____? N____? Your god thinks so. Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 "9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, And afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, That he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, Which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, From the house of bondage. " AND 17: 2-5 "2 If there be found among you, Within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, Man or woman, That hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, In transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, And worshipped them, Either the sun, Or moon, Or any of the host of heaven, Which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, And thou hast heard of it, And enquired diligently, And, Behold, It be true, And the thing certain, That such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, Which have committed that wicked thing, Unto thy gates, Even that man or that woman, And shalt stone them with stones, Till they die. "

These plus many more completely absurd examples show how completely inane and insane this biblical god is, As well as completely immoral. Yet no one can even prove he even exists. Wow even worse is how many of the examples that are listed above are taken directly from the 10 commandments THAT EVERYBODY SHOULD FOLLOW? What's worse is this so-called god would never use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible.

Simply put, If you answer "yes" to ---any--- of the questions, It means you are totally bankrupt, Corrupt, And immoral, Just like your unproved god clearly is in your shallow mind and you need not respond as everybody who is sensible and intelligent knows where you stand as every single response absolutely requires a "no" response, No exceptions, None.

So if you have responded with a "no" response to all of the questions, Congratulations, This means you are moral and sane and not bullied by a horrific god that you cannot even prove even exists. Since you have reached this far with answering "no" to all of the questions, Then it is also quite simple and it means that you disobey your the direct rules, Laws and actions of your god. So then the next question needs to be asked is where do you think you stand with YOUR god? Then the next question needs to be asked, Which is the most important one of all "why do you believe? " With the follow up question "why 'should' you believe since your god is in no possible way moral? "

dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
dbox

Pro

Good day!

This is my first debate so if I breach any customs, My apologies. On that note, I will have to suspend fulfilling your request to answer strictly "yes" or "no" in favor of bringing some clarity to your underlying assumptions in your questions. There are a few distinctions that must first be made. The distinction necessary to answer all these questions lies in the unique relationship of God with National Israel. Capital Punishment was a civil consequence instituted in Israel by God, As He was the immediate King over that Nation at the time. This relationship did not and does not extend to any other Nation. While we are still morally culpable for sin and as such deserving of death when we sin, The call for capital punishment is no longer applicable as there is no theocracy outside the Israel of old (as opposed to modern Israel). That being said, I will answer the questions as if you were asking if we are deserving of death, Rather than should we be put to death.

1) Do you think you should be put to death just because you blaspheme? --- yes (we are deserving, That is)

2) Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? --- Yes

3) Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? ---Yes, Though that is not speaking about saying bad words to your parents, But rather living a lifestyle of complete disdain and rebellion.

4) Do you think you should die if you commit adultery? ---Yes, We deserve death if we commit adultery.

5) Do you think you should die if you are a homosexual? ----Yes, This sin like adultery is a sin that makes us worthy of death.

6) Do you think you should die if you worship other gods? ---Yes. This sin is foundational and is the catalyst for all other sins.

I can provide more information/references about this if you need, I do not want to go too far beyond what you asked. Just let me know if there is any specific area you want me to elucidate.

As to your "most important" question, I believe the Bible because it is a reliable collection of historical documents, Written by eyewitnesses within the lifetime of other eyewitnesses that reports supernatural events that take place in fulfillment of very specific prophecy and claims to be divine rather than human (solely) in origin. It is an internally consistent and corroborating collection of works spanning a period of 1500 years, Comprised of the writing of 40 authors who lived across 3 continents. To maintain its level of textual integrity considering the vast opportunity for corruption is unprecedented and unrivaled in all of ancient literature. With the new testament alone, We have over 25, 000 manuscripts many of which can be placed within the first century A. D. , Again an unrivaled statistic for ancient writings. The reason we should believe this is simply this; to ignore this is to reject the God that made us and is Himself the very essence of that which the human-being needs for life and is designed to worship. This is not an arbitrary choice that God made but is the case by nature of the fact that reality is subordinate to and reliant on God to itself exist. This necessitates us functioning as our design indicates we should, That is in obedience to our maker.

As to you're positing that God is in no possible way moral, I wonder by what objective standard you can make such a claim? If there is no objective standard, That is one that is outside of and separate from you, What makes your standard of morality authoritative, And why is it ok for you to impose your standard on others, But not the other way around? I am not sure if I can ask questions, So if that is outside of the rules, Forgive the infraction, But may that is something we can address later if you are interested.

Respectfully,
DBOX
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Con

Greetings. Absolutely no are there ---any--- clarifications to be made. Within the questions asked of you, They are simple "yes" or "no" questions that put "you" on the spot to see how moral you are between you and YOUR god. Well actually to see if you have risen above your god in which you clearly haven"t, In which ---everybody--- should ---always--- do, No exceptions, None. So why should this debate even continue? After all, You cannot even prove that your god even exists.

Yeah with your "yes" responses YOU are stating that YOU as a so-called christian (because there is no such a thing as a christian) believes that BILLIONS should ab-so-lu-te-ly die because YOU thinks that a big black blank hole of a book says so as they and me break a BOOK'S and its STORIES laws. AND it is according to YOU that YOU will be carrying on with the executions. So go right ahead and YOU come on down here for beginners and YOU execute me. Whatsamatter? You are not going to follow YOUR god"s orders? Why? Why not? And if why not, Then you clearly without question YOU do not believe in YOUR insane god who in which according to YOUR trumped upped bible and its mythical fables has ordered YOU to carry on with these insane orders and executions. Yep. It is only a very small handful of people on the planet that are insane enough to answer "yes" to the questions, And then think that they are justified in doing so, But of course naturally get their goose livers cooked when not even taking responsibility of any type whatsoever when it gets down to taking to any kind of truth to them. Notice its only so-called christians? Its not jews that carry on with the insanity. Go on. Ask them.

"2) Do you think you should die if you work on the sabbath? --- Yes" So that right there proves that you in no possible way shows that you are NOT a christian by any means. After all, YOUR christ certainly worked on the sabbath many times and was not executed for it.

"3) Do you think you should die for merely cursing at your parents? ---Yes, Though that is not speaking about saying bad words to your parents, But rather living a lifestyle of complete disdain and rebellion. " WRONG You cannot go around and invent excuses of YOUR doing in which you just flat out did. YOUR bible ---never--- makes ---any--- consolidations of ---any--- type for ---anything--- like this. Its simple. If you curse at YOUR parents, Its death.

"5) Do you think you should die if you are a homosexual? ----Yes, This sin like adultery is a sin that makes us worthy of death. " What if one day scientists 100% prove that being homosexual is something that you are born with and cannot be helped? I get it, According to YOU and only YOU its still death - right? Ah yes, Why don"t we all pass laws that should deny equality to those that are religious and believe in god? After all, It is they that hunt down the gays in numbers only with mammoth amounts of $$$$$ here in this country as they so lovingly trot their steps. Without their pathetic cowardly hateful religion, As god hates even children for jeez sakes, With their thankfully failing and fading numbers and $$$$$, Yep, You can count on it, The issue of being gay here in this country would fizzle like a log cabin without the syrup and everybody who is gay would be accepted as being normal. Indeed it is religion and god that is highly abnormal because of all of its needless inspired hate. Now hate me all you want. That's exactly what your god demands.
Oh I get it also, So if you as a so-called christian were to see a gay person kissing another man and then see someone raping a 6 year old child, You'd call the police on the gay couple. Good job in proving just how badly we need christians in this country because it is only so-called christians that opposes being gay at such high levels here on this soil. However, Thankfully christianity is fading and failing fast and rightly so. Don't you so-called christians have better things to do with your time like helping others like the 6 year olds being raped? Isn"t that what YOUR religion is supposed to teach you? But then again it doesn"t teach you that at all now does it? It in fact it teaches you to hate. That"s because god is based entirely on hate which is so ridiculously easy to prove as god hates children. The hate has gotta stop people. Christians need to become responsible and own up to their stupid mind numbing that don"t--make--any--sense--stances. Christianity has lost 5. 1% of its following since 2007 and atheism has doubled. 5. 1% is a huge number. Rightly. Justly.

"6) Do you think you should die if you worship other gods? ---Yes. This sin is foundational and is the catalyst for all other sins. " Wow. Since you cannot even prove that YOUR god even exists as there are no tests nor demonstrations that shows that this god of yours exists, How do you know that this so-called god of YOURS is the right one to worship considering that there are at least 25, 000 denominations of christianity alone? There"s also no possible way you can describe YOUR god as you have no idea what this god of YOURS is. I mean what is that? Since you have no idea to this absurdity and you are absolutely willing to kill others for what they believe in and you have no idea what they believe in, Only that its wrong according to YOU, This debate is now over.

Don"t even bother thinking or dreaming about responding to this debate. You are completely irrational, Totally devoid of taking any responsibility towards thinking, Reasoning, Rationalizing, Using common sense and using logic of any kind in which also YOUR god has none. That"s because YOUR god, In which YOU cannot even prove even exists, A superior ego god complex, Which is what YOUR bible is all about and nothing but, In which YOUR god would ---never--- use text as a form of communication which is the worst form of communication possible. So really, What do you have other than a 0% of nothing from this god of YOURS and only YOU can imagine?
dbox

Pro

Good Morning,

It seems that you have strayed away from the initial prompt for the debate in favor of expressing your feelings about Christianity. After the debate, I will be happy to talk to you about those feelings if you want, But until then if we could just focus on facts, Not feelings. I will respond to two things: 1) My right to answer the questions in such a way that I am satisfied that the truth has been accurately presented. 2) Your rebuttal to a few of the initial topics. Now, To your post;

First, The wording of your questions indicated you do not have even an elementary understanding of the dynamics of the Old Testament Laws or the Covenants. To answer your questions without at least some clarification would be to misrepresent the truth. For example, If a stranger came up to me while I was eating alone in a restaurant and asked me, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Answer me yes or no right now. ", That is not a question I can answer without clarifying a few things. Initially, The stranger is assuming I am married. Beyond this, If I say no, It indicates that I am still beating her. If I say yes it means I had previously been beating her. The fact is I never was beating her in the first place, But if I can not explain that, The stranger would never know the truth. So please, Extend the courtesy of allowing me to explain the subject if it is being misrepresented. Contrary to popular belief, The Bible does actually require careful study to understand many of the doctrinal distinctives; so while the primary message of sin, Savior and how to live a loving God-centered life is clear, Not everything is so clear.

2) Now I will clarify a bit more the concept of working on the Sabbath and why it warrants death. I did not explain my answer well. The Jewish Sabbaths were holy days set aside for nationwide worship of God. God as the King of Israel, The God who saved them from Egyptian slavery and formed them into a people, Set the laws of the nations. They were not slaves to that nation, And they swore they would abide by the rules that God set (Exodus 19:8). God warned that as King, The nation would run in the way He prescribed, And to transgress the law would result in punishment; death in the case of the topics you presented. The day of rest (the Sabbaths) was a blessing to the people and was a time for them to enjoy time off of work and to reflect on the God that saved and protected them. To be over consumed with work to the neglect of God is not good for the human body, Mind or spirit. To despise God's command is to say that you reject the good He did and the good He still promised. The Sabbaths also pointed forward to the future kingdom that God promised where the Messiah (Christ) would rule perfectly and forever as King. To ignore the Sabbath in Israel and work is to say that you do not care about God or His promised Messiah. Since God and His laws are by nature life-giving (Proverbs 6:23), To reject them is by nature death. God is by nature of who He is the Judge of the world and the Dispenser of Justice. No one could fill these roles but HIm. His standard is what matters. Just as the child does not make the rules of the house or set the standards by which he/she will live, Neither does the human tell God how they will live and what consequences are fitting. Now, As I said before, These civil consequences (i. E. Capital punishment) were localized to ancient national Israel. While God still considers these actions to be sin, And they make us worthy of death, We are no longer under the threat of the death penalty for them. Also, Christians are not called to enact the death penalty, Which you seemed to indicate is the case. God never commanded that we do that. The power to enforce civil punishment only falls within the purview of the government (Romans 13), And I do not want to kill you or anyone for what they believe.

Now what Christ did was a type of work that was morally permissible (Matthew 12). He healed people and picked food to eat. The legalistic Pharisees had corrupted the intention of God in overregulating the rules to the point of absurdity. Jesus went on to say that He was the Lord of the Sabbath, Meaning He was the promised Messiah to which the Sabbath was pointing. We enter into His rest, As He pays the price for our sins and purchases for us the inheritance of eternal life. That is the purpose of the Jewish Sabbath. After Christ was resurrected, Fulfilling the Sabbath and drawing in people from all over the world, We see a new tradition take the place of the Saturday Sabbath, The gathering of believers for corporate worship on Sunday, The day Jesus rose from the dead. The Lords Day is not the Sabbath, And while it should be a day set aside for corporate worship and a time of rest and reflection on God, The Civil Laws of Ancient Israel (working on the Sabbath) do not apply to this day. There is no indication anywhere in Scripture that this should be the case. Christ is the true Sabbath.

3) The word "at" is not in the text. The reason I am picking at the small distinction is that the Hebrew word, "qalal" carries with it the idea of holding someone in contempt, Despising and acting towards someone in a trifling or dishonorable way. It is more than just saying a bad word. It most definitely includes speech, But it is more than that (Ezekiel 22:7 notes that God is displeased because "father and mother are treated with contempt"

5) For the sake of clarity in this debate, I will not deal in hypotheticals. If your only rebuttal for my position is a hypothetical, Then I think that subject should be closed.

6) If you would like to make the existence of God a subject for another debate, I would be very happy to engage in that. In short though just to give you something, The fact that the universe exists is evidence of a Creator. The universe shows His eternal power and divine nature (Romans 1). The Bible is the evidence of the personal nature of God and reveals to us what His will is. As you noted, There is no test (I am assuming you mean scientific) that can show us God, As science deals with things in the realm of the natural, Not the supernatural. The only way we could see God is if He chose to reveal Himself to us, Which He did when He showed Himself to the Hebrews as recorded in the Old Testament, And in Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. Historical evidence, While not "science" is still a valid evidentiary means.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Con

"It seems that you have strayed away from the initial prompt for the debate in favor of expressing your feelings about Christianity. " Not at all, I stayed within the context of the debate to see just how moral YOU are, And it is clear that you, Just like YOUR god, In which you cannot even prove even exists, Are horrifically immoral and you just cannot stand it.

"After the debate, I will be happy to talk to you. . . " No I don"t want. I don"t want to get to know you at all as a person because you SUCK as a person with no morals AT ALL.

"1) My right to answer. . . " There is 0% of truth of any kind when you answer "yes" to ANY of the questions. PE-IR-OD.

"2) Your rebuttal to a few of the initial topics. " I am going to do is give you a 3 strike opportunity. If you show any kind of immorality as you did within the first round, You may as well forget it. If you do not know something for something in which you claim to have knowledge upon and you really don"t and yet you pretend that you do and since you don"t but will invent excuses for it, Bad idea. Because I do know better, A lot better. For starters DO NOT tell me I do not have "even an elementary understanding of the dynamics etc" That should be an easy strike 1 because trust me, I most certainly do know YOUR god, Again in which you cannot even prove even exists, YOUR bible in which your god would ---never--- be stupid enough to use text as a form of communication - the worst form of communication possible and the bible is nothing more than a superior ego god complex splattered all throughout it, And YOUR religion far better than YOU ---ever--- will.

Well that opening statement was a complete yadda yadda yadda. "The Bible does actually require careful study. . . " B. S. Because your god, Is reasonably intelligent, In which you cannot even prove exists would never be stupid enough to use text, The worst form of communication possible. "actually require careful study" What a load.

Your savior should be strike 3
2) "Now I will clarify a bit more the concept of working on the Sabbath and why it warrants death. " That"s strike 1. There is no reasoning. You bring in christ a false messiah who---worked---on---the---sabbath who should have been executed. Good god. So you contradict yourself. Since you did as such it means that verses such as Numbers 15: 32-36 are completely invalid and should be chucked. So that means that since a couple of verses are invalid, Other verses are invalid, And more verses are invalid etc etc etc well gee gosh golly, The whole bible is invalid as YOUR god would NEVER use text as a form of communication, The worst form of communication possible.

I told you, You DO NOT BRING IN CHRIST INTO THIS. But you did. So. . .

Alright, Since you want it so bad, I"m going to degrade, Humiliate, Dehumanize and make you look like a f--king jerk. YOU deserve it. Christ was a false prophet. Ready you arrogant a$$? There may be a total of 1, 000 christians on this planet, If that according to the bible and YOU most certainly are not one of them.
YOU show me where this god of YOURS in which you cannot even prove even exists, Gave power to this almighty messiah, Namely christ, To change his "father"s" god"s laws Something like "I the lord thy god grants you, Christ to change my laws, Rules and regulations" Something like that. Since that has not occurred, Not even not not not anywhere in YOUR fake bible, God"s laws rules and regulations from the OT stand tall into the NT and death is absolutely 100% required as an example on the sabbath and christ could have not overturned god"s laws. So by that, Your christ is false, Christianity is false and the NT is false.

Moving on for more proof that christ is the false messiah"

John 5: 16-18 "16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, And sought to slay him, Because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, And I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, Because he not only had broken the sabbath, But said also that God was his Father, Making himself equal with God. "
17 christ is stating that his father, Namely god, Is going to be working on the sabbath. THERE IS NO F--KING WAY, NOT ---EVER--- THAT your GOD IS EVER EVER am I making myself perfectly clear here EVER going to be working on the sabbath for any reason. NOT---EVER. So your jesus lied. Or your jesus is a fake and a fraud. Or that verse is a misprint in what is supposed to be a perfect book. Or the entire OT is false thus proving the god of the OT is false. Now which one of those do you think is to be true? Why of course its jesus to be a liar. Why? Verse 18. The pompous a$$ thinks he has the righteous ego, To not only break the sabbath but place himself equal with god. Did god give permission to jesus to be at equal with god? NO HE DID NOT. Your jesus is a fake and a fraud.
More proof. . .
Pay attention closely:
*Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. "
*Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, The flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. "
*2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, And is profitable for doctrine, For reproof, For correction, For instruction in righteousness:"
*Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, Converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, Making wise the simple. "
*Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. "
* James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, And cometh down from the Father of lights, With whom is no variableness, Neither shadow of turning. "
In other words god"s word is PERFECT. It cannot be changed by anyone or anything. Christ, Being the lowly drab that he supposedly was in which like god who in which nobody can even prove has ever existed could---not---change---god"s---laws---because---god"s---word---is---PERFECT---and---cannot---be---changed. Got it?

Ab-so-lu-te-ly according to your bible, In which YOUR precious dumpling of a messiah, A complete counterfeit, You are to be executed if you work on the sabbath in which god"s laws cannot be overturned. Thus jesus should have been rightly and morally according to YOUR bible been executed which is naturally completely immoral. You have no outs. Thus christianity is a natural failure because christ was a failure.

Now to prove that YOU are not a christian in any way. Thankfully.
Have you given up your mother, Father brother and sister? Well if you have, As YOUR christ has ordered you to do, Then you are clearly as insane as he was. You have no outs. DO NOT INVENT EXCUSES. YOU HAVE 0 OUTS
Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, And the daughter against her mother, And the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. "

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, Three against two, And two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, And the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, And the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, And the daughter in law against her mother in law. "

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, Judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, Or brethren, Or sisters, Or father, Or mother, Or wife, Or children, Or lands, For my name's sake, Shall receive an hundredfold, And shall inherit everlasting life. "
--------------------------------------------------
Have you given up ALL of your possessions as YOUR christ demands? Why no you haven"t and you know it. Not even close! Therefore you are NOT in any possible way a christian. And only someone completely insane would order anybody to do as such. DO NOT INVENT EXCUSES YOU HAVE 0 OUTS.
Luke 14:33 "So likewise, Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, He cannot be my disciple. "

Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, He said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, And distribute unto the poor, And thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, Follow me. "

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 is repeated from above

Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, Go and sell that thou hast, And give to the poor, And thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. "

Matthew 13: 22 "22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, And the deceitfulness of riches, Choke the word, And he becometh unfruitful. "

"Now what Christ did was a type of work that was morally permissible" By who? Not by god. Matthew 12 doesn"t not say "permissible by god". So until it does, Anywhere, Then christ is chickenfeed. And what"s worse is this christ, Just like god has such a superior ego god complex which is what the bible is entirely about. The problem is, Is that christ is, Was not god. Not even close.

Now that YOUR christ has been proven as a complete fraud and a phony, Your religion is false, Your christ is false, Your NT is false. The jews have it right. Or do they? Only if they can prove that god exists.

I'm out of space. It all been wasted on YOUR christ because YOU insisted on bringing him up. Once again, Your christ should have been executed for working on the sabbath which would have ruined your religion. That's god's "perfect" law. Regardless, Its completely bankrupt and immoral.
dbox

Pro

"There is 0% of truth of any kind when you answer 'yes'". Restated, "Your answer of "yes" is a lie because my answer of "no" is the truth". If you do not first support your position and rebut mine, This is begging the question and precludes the continuance of any meaningful debate. You misuse basic scripture and basic debate courtesy, Exhibit poor grammar and spelling, Engage in consistent logical fallacy and use foul language directed at me, Which objectively places your expertise in debating and this topic within the lowest level of Blooms Cognitive Dimension Matrix, Requiring one to be able to remember and communicate facts. This is fine (though any debate venue of value would have disqualified you by now), But at least be polite, Try to debate with logic, Not emotion, And edit your work so this reads smoothly, Or it is a waste of everyone's time (except mine because I enjoy the subject).

If you knew my God and His Word as you say, You would love Christ (1 John 2:23), And you would not ask if capital punishment was still a legitimate punishment for offenders of God's Laws and then call me a hypocrite for breaking God's Laws if I do not put people to death. The distinction between covenants is an elementary subject (Hebrews 8:6-13). Civil penalty for breaking these Laws only applied to Ancient National Israel (Rom 7:6).

God did not change. Everything He promised He fulfilled, That is why Christ said He was not overthrowing the Law, But fulfilling it. God promised to make a New Covenant in Jer 31:31, And to make a new one means that the first one is obsolete (Heb 8).

John 5- God rested from His work of creation on the 7th day (Gen2:2; work He had done). We see God performing actions throughout the entirety of the Old Testament. He saved the people from Egypt, Conversed with Abram, Wrestled with Jacob and visited Moses writing the 10 Commandments on Sinai. He is still actively working in the world and still upholds it (Neh 9:6), And just as God the Father still works to the ends which He has already established, Namely the building of His Kingdom through saving His people, So to this end does God the Son, Jesus work (John 17), And there is no Law against this.

The statements concerning about what I have given up are really a bit much. It is not within the purview of this debate to discuss my personal life, And you are speaking about things you could not possibly know as we have never spoken before this debate. Moving forward. Once again the applications of these verses are being presented quite incorrectly. First, It was not a command to abandon our parents, As Jesus chastises the Pharisees for neglecting theirs (Matt 15:4-6) and cites the commandment to honor your parents. His point is summarized when He states that if we love any human, Even those closest to us, More than we love Him, We are not living a life in a way that glorifies Him. He is saying that there is nothing that we could lose in this life which the attainment of would make it worth rejecting Him. Beyond this He is saying that there will be times when His people follow Him, And their family will be at odds with them because of it. History is replete with examples, Just one being a Muslim named Nabeel Qureshi who was saved and turned to follow Christ. His mother and father, Devout Muslims, Said that he was dead to them for what he did. He chose to follow Christ instead of his parents in their worship of a false god. However, If there is a whole family of four that follows Christ, None of them will be faced with this dilemma. This is not a claim that in every situation you are required to abandon at least one of your parents or siblings, Or that God will only save one or the other, But never both (wonderfully Nabeel's mother and father submitted to Christ years down the road). When you come to the Bible with a prejudice against it, You will inevitably force the most unnatural reading of a text, Often in the form of demanding false dichotomies as you have in this case.

Luke 14:33. It is patently obvious that Christ does not want people to abandon every single thing in our lives as this would make it impossible to fulfill his command to not refuse those who beg or borrow from you as you can not give them anything if you do not have anything; In Acts 5, Ananias and Sapphira were not said to be in sin for owning property but were in fact told that it was their own property. If Jesus commanded we all sell everything, The apostle Peter would have charged them as guilty for owning property, Not tell them that it was their own to do with as they pleased. Furthermore, A reading of Jesus' words in this way would completely contradict the way His own apostles taught about what He said. In 2 Corinthians 8, Paul encourages the saints to give to those saints who are poor "not as a command" which he would have if Christ had, But rather, "to prove. . . That your love is genuine. . . . According to what a person has. . . Not that others should be eased and you burdened, But as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, So that their abundance may supply your need". Now if everyone had just given all their belongings away, No one would have anything by which to bring relief to those who were in need. Paul, Commissioned by Jesus to teach, Taught that "if a man does not work he should not eat. . . Such persons we command (command). . . In the Lord. . . To earn their own living. (see Eph 4:28, Work so you have to share. . . )

How Luke 14 is meant
"For we are the circumcision, Who worship by the Spirit of God[b] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh" 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, Of the people of Israel, Of the tribe of Benjamin, A Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, A Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, A persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, [c] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, In order that I may gain Christ. . . """". (Phil 3:3-8). He defines what he means when he says "count everything as loss", That is everything he once considered "gain" which he lists in verses 3-7. . .

The object is not always material possessions as you seem to argue. We see language in the same conversation (Luke 14:27) that would be absurd to be taken the way you present it, That is that everyone must take up their cross and follow Christ. If one treats the text in the same shallow fashion, One would be led to conclude all Christians own a cross and had to carry it around as they followed Jesus. Not approaching the text sensibly, Recognizing that the speakers/writers of this time were people like us and spoke like human beings using hyperbole, Simile, Metaphor, And colloquialism common to local syntax is to preclude any useful understand the Bible.

The other example of giving up riches was to an young prince who was in love with money and boastfully lied claiming he had kept all the commandments perfectly from his youth. Because he idolized wealth, Counting it as loss for the surpassing worth of Christ was his "cross to bear", As there would most definitely be great shame cast on a prince who chose to become a pauper for the sake of a man whom many regarded as only a carpenters son.

Jesus is greater than the temple, And his disciples were with Him in service of God, And Jesus only ever did the work that He saw His Father doing. As we know that the Father would not break His own commandments and they flow from His very Nature, We know that Jesus, The Lord of the Sabbath, Was not in violation of the Sabbath, And by extension neither were His disciples. Jesus goes on to heal on the Sabbath in the next verses (12:9-14), And when accused states "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath". He violated at most what the Pharisees accused His disciples of in Matthew 15 1-6, Breaking the tradition of the elders, Not the commandments of God. It was the Pharisees who sinned by making laws outside God's Law. Jesus states in Matthew 23, "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in peoples faces. . . You tithe dill and cumin but neglect the weightier matters of the law: justice, Mercy and faithfulness. Rest that ignores God and His people is sin/ work that serves them is rest (Matt 12:7).

Jesus says in Matthew 12:7, "Have you not read. . . David. . . And those who were with Him. . . Ate the bread of the Presence which is not lawful. . . . Or. . . How on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath (they work in the temple preparing sacrifices) and are guiltless? . . . Something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, And not sacrifice, You would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath". This is not to say that they broke the Law and God overlooked it, But rather that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, And it is good to do the work of God, And there is not a day, Or a law attached to a day, That forbids men from doing God's work. God would not have set up a day where it was unlawful to do work in service of Him and others. You can not just look at the word "work" and define it however you want, You have to understand the scripture as a whole and let the authors define their own terms. You have it all backwards eden.

-Challenge my statement at the end of my last post about the existence of God before you make unsupported claims that I am wrong.
-Support your claim of the Bible's lack of trustworthiness as it relates to being transmitted accurately.
-Provide an explanation of the moral paradigm you use to judge the morality of God's actions.

Respectfully,
Dev
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Con

You don"t have any rebut whatsoever when you answer "yes" to any of the questions. It only shows that you are as completely immoral as your god in which you cannot even prove even exists.

(Hebrews 8:6-13) "And you would not ask if capital punishment was still a legitimate punishment for offenders of God's Laws and then call me a hypocrite for breaking God's Laws if I do not put people to death. The distinction between covenants is an elementary subject" Uh well within that where was that rumbling on and on and on law of "death" for anything from the OT revoked you total imbecile moron? You really p**s me off because you flatly invent excuses for something in which you know absolutely nothing about and yet you pretend that you do.
YOUR god within those verses YOU presented DID NOT change his verses AT ALL in any way, Shape or form to take death off the table for anyone breaking HIS laws. . . Blaspheme (in which this god of YOURS would never do. After all in this printed bible he"s a superior ego god complex in which YOUR bible is entirely about and nothing more), Working on the sabbath (in which this god of yours would never do as there"s not a chance in this universe this god of YOURS would ---ever--- work on the sabbath), Those that are gay (are you kidding with all the rape that YOUR god loves and also he loves those intertwined marriages), Those that do not believe in him (that would never happen as it would mean a supermassive hypocritical contradiction and would require YOUR god to have changed his oafing mind), Those that curse at their parents (would not happen as its listed both in the OT and the NT), Committing adultery (would not happen as its listed many times both in the OT and the NT)

The other verses you mentioned absolutely horrific and pitiful. YOU DIDN"T SHOW ME ANYWHERE WHERE your GOD CHANGED HIS WORD, AKA UPDATED HIS PROFILE TO EXHUME HIS RIDICULOUS SCROTUM SODA DEATH COMMANDMENTS.

Blaspheme. Death. That"s according to your god OF PRINT. Now here I say "god damn it you piece of s--t god because you are a f--king maggot who hates children, Babies and pregnant women who wants to rip their stomachs open. " Yeah that"s in YOUR bible in which you don"t know that. Yeah that"s abortion in which you don"t know that either. But wait, You as a so-called christian (as there"s no such thing as a christian as proved unto you in the previous argument in which you cannot argue against) are against abortions, So that"s a hypocritical contradiction. Now you come on down here and you pay attention to your god"s laws, Rules and regulations and you kill me (would you like my address? ). You also kill the billions that most certainly blaspheme against YOUR printed god. So you actually believe YOU HAVE TRUTH? Only with hate. Sorry. That"s not truth.
Oh and btw, There"s only a very small, Very small % of this planet that would support your ideals of the "yes" vote. They"d be so-called christians. And a very few so-called christians in the first place.
Here"s another thing" do you really think for a trillionth of a second that if you were to kill a few people on a killing spree because they were to blaspheme, Or work on the sabbath, Or if they were gay, Or if they were to cure at their parents, Or if they didn"t believe in YOUR god and worshiped other god(s), Or if they were to commit adultery" and your defense was "god told me to" in any court in this land, Do you really think you"d have a cabbage batbrain chance in winning AT ALL? Or you would be jailed for the rest of your life with the key to your cell thrown to the gators or you would be executed and rightly so, And no, No insanity plea would be allowed? Now which of the two scenarios do you think would be the most likely of events? Duh.

"But at least be polite, " I already told you" Wow. I am as polite as possible. Here"s how I run things" if there is the slightest hint of you inventing excuses from something in which you clearly know nothing about, Especially when its the subject in which you claim to professing you have knowledge upon, Namely this one, And you really don"t, And yet you pretend that you do by coming up with invented excuses and or flat out lying, I will insult you with my brand of insults that are original, Funny, Stupid, Deranged and walls to the ball insane, Unless those excuses are so far fetched that they are clearly pulled off from your groin to be a groin pull from the gold-i-lox area to keep scientists looking for other planets, Then all bets are truly off and I may end the debate right then and there because I DO KNOW my stuff, Whereas most don"t. And YOU don"t know YOUR stuff.

Debate logic? You have 0% logic of any kind when you answer "yes" to any of the questions. None.

Emotion? That"s what YOUR god is. He"s a crybaby without his rattle in his printed bible. If he doesn"t get his way he either kills people or he orders his henchmen to do the killing for him or he punishes people severely with an intense amount of suffering which is utter B. S. On any cardboard box of kid drawn chewable liquids stick figures for their wrongdoings according to him. Well you know what? We who don"t kill for no reason, Unlike YOUR god, And don"t punish for no reason, Unlike YOUR god and we are better than YOUR god.

So don"t talk to me ---ever--- about logic or emotion. K? When you haven"t the foggiest clue as to what the terms mean. After all, You like so many here on debate. Org have no genuine friends or loved ones. Its a HUGE red flag.

The way I type reads just fine. If you don"t like it, Leave. I"m certainly not here to please a flying pregnant fetus screw like you who truly does hate the human race just like your so-called god. I---don"t---care.

"Everything He promised He fulfilled, " OK we're done bye.
dbox

Pro

Good Evening,

It is unfortunate that you do not seem interested in engaging in this conversation in a mature, Intelligent way. I leave as still requiring a valid response everything from the previous round.

Respectfully,
Devon
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by dbox 3 years ago
dbox
To clarify, When I said that Revelation had the whole of human history from the establishment to the glorification of the Church in view, I was not saying he was prophesying modern geopolitical events. I reread what I wrote and I thought I may have been unclear. John was writing to an audience as noted in Revelation 1-3. So it makes sense that when the language of the text lends itself to what may be specific events, We consider them as events which would be significant or understandable by those to whom the letter was addressed (this precludes the possibility of apache helicopters). While we know of course the preservation of God's Revelation was for our benefit and learning as well, We must not force modern contexts into the ancient recordings for interpretation, But rather we must read it as the human author, Guided by God wrote it for in this we see the meaning most clearly. Once we see the meaning and intention of the divine and human authorship, We are best able to apply His word to our lives. I'm saying this so you are aware of what I believe, Not as an attempt to teach you lol.
Posted by dbox 3 years ago
dbox
@PGA

Thank you brother man.

Regarding my eschatology, I hold to Historicism and Amillennialism.

Regarding my view of the extent of the fulfillment of the Old Testament by Christ, I base it fundamentally on Matthew 5:17-20 and Hebrews 8. I believe Christ fulfilled all the Old Covenants through His incarnation, Perfect obedience to the Law of God, Death, Burial, Resurrection, Perpetual intercession and sending of the Holy Spirit. In fulfilling these, He established the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36 and Malachi 3. The last remaining thing to be done to bring about the completion of God's plan is the return of Christ to pronounce final judgement on the ungodly and to consummate His marriage to His Bride, The Church.

Just to address a few things that are often points of distinction:

1) I believe John had a specific local audience(s) in mind when he recorded the Revelation, So I do not think the Revelation should be read through the lens of modern geopolitics.

2) I believe the prophecies of the book of Daniel (1-11) were fulfilled between the period of Daniels receiving of the prophecies and the destruction of the Temple in A. D. 70 (c. F. Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Daniel 12 and Jesus Revelation to John have in their view the long period of tribulation for the Church extending from the establishment of the Church by Christ through His Apostles as noted in Act's 1 to the final glorification of His Church at the end of days.
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
Dbox, Good debate! You win, Although I'm sure they will include this as a draw because the other person could not keep his commitment - funny how that works? The injustice of it all.

A good logical argument, Well done!

Now to the point.

You said:
"And while it should be a day set aside for corporate worship and a time of rest and reflection on God, The Civil Laws of Ancient Israel (working on the Sabbath) do not apply to this day. "

Does that mean you see the entire OT as having been fulfilled or do you believe there is still more to be fulfilled? IOW's, Are you a Preterist or a futurist of some persuasion?

If you are a futurist, I would like to debate you on the subject of eschatology (an in-house debate among
Christians).

Peter
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
WW2GuyWhoLikesWW2, Why is your sense of right and wrong any better than anyone else then, Especially if your moral views contradict another set of moral views? It begs the question of who is right? Logically two sets of contrary views cannot both be true. Is morality that absurd that anything can be passed off as right (if the person has the power to enforce it - i. E. , Hitler, Kim Jong-Un, Obama) just because that someone happens to prefer it?
Posted by primeministerJoshua812 3 years ago
primeministerJoshua812
Backwardseden you have lost these debates before so just give up!
Posted by WW2GuyWhoLikesWW2 3 years ago
WW2GuyWhoLikesWW2
I gotta admit, I understand why you would make this. But since I don't really have a god. I can't really say that my set of morals comes from the books themselves. I believe that you can tell stories as a form of saying whats right and wrong in many forms. Including cartoon characters and just fun movies and books.

You're right the hypocracy from religion has been known since it all began really. And people from different relgions say that the others are hypocritical. The only real use out of it is an easy to digest book of morality if taking the stories that dont include murdering the gays or having sex with your daughter. Ya know, The good ones that teach kids that stealing is wrong. Just not make it into a cult.
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