The Instigator
novilona
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
ZzRanger
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

Is it possible to achieve gender equality?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
ZzRanger
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2018 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 788 times Debate No: 112946
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

novilona

Con

I would say that this question arises another one: haven"t we actually yet achieved equality? Probably, not complete but relative one. Complete equality is fundamentally impossible as men and women are created different both in physiological and phycological ways. There is no way a woman will work in coalmines (quite a popular example) just because she is physically weaker than men. And it is not sexism, it"s the fact. There are more women working as teachers not because women were born to bring up children, but because they are usually more emotional and empathetic, so children feel more comfortable with them. And it is not sexism towards men! There are always exceptions to the rules. Besides, people are different not just in terms of gender but in terms of individuality.
Concerning equality in payment and the situation in working sphere on the whole, well, I am not sure how it works in other countries but here a person gets money not for being a male or a female, but on the basis of its work experience, position, qualification and so on. Plus, candidates are offered job on account of their skills and qualification again. And in theory, an employer has to pay wages for good work to good workers, not for being a man or a woman. So, if you want to earn more, you need to do your best rather than just to complain.
Speaking of taking high position. Again what do feminists try to fight for? Equal portion of men and women on high posts? It shouldn"t work like this. If a woman really wants to achieve something, she will do it. There are a great number of examples of such women. One have to strive for its goals to make oneself heard and noticed. Complaining, stamping one"s feet and shouting "We require!" will not help a lot.
In majority of countries women have a right to vote. That was the initial goal which was achieved. Women have the right to work, to earn money, to express themselves, to move freely, to choose the way of life they wants to live (whether to marry, or to make a career, or both). If to talk about counries where women are quite restricted in their rights, well, then here arise the ethnologic and, simultaneously, ethical questions. Women there are traditionally in a lower position. And it is a matter of culture and religion. If one asks these women whether they are satisfied with their status, the majority will probably answer "yes". As it is the way they are used to living, it is in their mentality. Many of them might even not know another kind of life. So, for nations with great influence of religion or traditions it is unlikely to achieve equality. And western countries should definitely stop peddle these ideas to them.
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2far4u2CharlesDarwin
Pro

I once met a nun a sister of the cloth. Now for her namesake, was as I recall Sister Margaret. Now, sister Margaret was in the front line of the bra burners here in Australia. Know this hurts as that noble soul is not with us anymore.

So all I can say is go girl give it all you've got just like you did in life. Back to Sister magrets advice and what her passion for feminism was. This is what was said between us as best I remember back before women that now think more so to the likes of cats and men that think as the likes of dogs.
Was; women needed to be equal with men for humanities sake. But some wanted and still want to be better than men. Now, this is where the family unit's structure has fallen away by the wayside. We have our roles Dad will be the bad cop and mum is the good cop. So until we give the world back to the children of tomorrow then we have failed them all. As a gift is a gift that is justly given away as a gift. You know to pass on the baton in the relay. To pass on the gauntlet to the next.

We are not here for long are we and unconditional love is but a parents. Teach yourself and your children the difference between passion, frustration and anger get them to realise to mean what you say and say what you mean as it is never mean if it comes from the heart but sometimes we need to be cruel to be kind. And never become disappointed as it equals nothing to be bitter.

Peace be with you while every woman is longing for the man and every man is longing for women. Two sides of a coin and all that divides us are 360 degrees upon an edge that is no more then it's own thickness.
ZzRanger

Pro

Lets first define what gender equality is in the first before we can really have a discussion over whether it can be achieved. Gender equality is the idea of treating men and women equally, in other words, the same. What your argument seems to be over is the idea of men and women being inherently different, and thus, we can never achieve gender equality. But we have to look at the question at hand. It is asking whether it is possible to ever achieve gender equality, not whether its feasible or practical. As such, I am only obligated to provide one instance of this being achieved in order to win this debate, by the wording of the question itself. We can see gender equality occur with newborn babies, since they look and act the same. Therefore, people will treat these babies the same regardless of gender. That alone proves that gender equality can indeed exist with the earliest form of life for humans, but it just gets lost as we get older due to our culture.

To address your arguments about men and women being inherently different, I would like you to consider the other point of view, nurture over nature. You say that men and women are inherently different, but a lot of the reason why they are different is due to their upbringing. It's our culture which is what is shaping men and women to act the way the do. Men, at no fault of their own, are raised to be "strong" and "tough", whereas women are raised to be "passive" and "caring" We can see these stereotypes in movies, books, etc. And this mindset is shaping the way kids develop. It explains why boy's muscles are more developed than girls....because they engage in more physical activity due to our culture requiring them to be strong. Our culture also says that girls should be quiet and ladylike, which causes them to engage in activities that cause them to become more emotional, like role playing with dolls for example, since this requires acting out drama scenes. The portrayal of girls in movies also influence the way they act, since they aspire to act like their icons, which more often than not, portray more feminine behaviors.

Again, I would like to stress that this debate isn't about whether it's practical to achieve gender equality, but whether it is possible. And it is indeed possible. If we were to strip away all the traditional stereotypes of men and women and even the distinction between men and women, we can achieve gender equality, since we wouldn't know of any difference. Men obviously don't treat other men differently, simply because they are all men and are the same. Women also don't treat other women differently, since they are all women. If the distinction between men and women were to be removed from our culture, they would be treated the same, since they would be classified as humans, and thus treated the same.

To summarize, the question simply asks whether gender equality can ever be achieved. I have proven that gender equality exists with babies and can be achieved if we were to remove the cultural stereotypes of men and women.

I wish you the best of luck in this debate, and as always, lets keep this courteous and focus on the arguments, rather than insults. This is my first time doing this, so I honestly have no idea what to expect.
Debate Round No. 1
novilona

Con

At first, thank you for joining the debate! And also thank you for courteous and clear expression of your viewpoint.

The topic, actually, is quite controversial and I am almost sure that there is no right answer to this question. Probably time will tell whether gender equality can be achieved or not. And yet we have our opinions at our disposal.

So, speaking about equality from the very childhood. You say that babies are treated the same regardless of gender. I partially agree with it. This period of neutrality lasts a year at most and during it all a baby needs are food and sleep. It does not want to socialize, study, work, or somehow express itself. Just basic needs. Then there comes a time of changes. It goes without saying that many behavioral stereotypes are formed while upbringing a child. Parents and other surrounding have strong influence on a growing human-being. A girl often dressed in fancy clothes, skirts, dresses; boy"s clothes are not so colorful. Girls are supposed to play with dolls and kitchen utensils, and boys are given cars and little soldiers. Gender "atmosphere", so to say, is truly formed synthetically. Little people are given its stage props and script. BUT! Have you ever heard of girls who inexplicably refuse to follow the script? They have everything that gils should have at their age. Doll house, pretty clothes, diadem, she is told daily "you are a lady", she is expected to be charming and all this. But she refuses to accept this only way just because she "does not feel like this". She does not understand why it is not good for her to have a desire to play with cars, or to wear boyish trousers, or to scale a tree. The conclusion is that not everything is up to upbringing. The thing is that this unequality already lives insede us. From the very birth. First of all, it all starts with physiology. Whatever some people are trying to deny, but man and woman brains ARE different, not to talk about other organs. Both gender have equal set of hormones but the proportion is different. And THIS differentiation is able to determine our way of behavior and thinking. Men (not all but we avarege out) are "tougher" because that is how their brains work. Men are stronger and they are supposed to be strong because they physically have firmer bones and muscles. Women can be strong either but the words "women should not carry heavy things" are not sexism. It is just really bad for women"s reproductive function. Okay, let it be not the core function of modern women, but it is actually crucially important for all the mankind. And I find it stupid to deny it, otherwise we all would not be here, existing and talking about obvious things. Woman should have her own goals and strives and today she really has wide range of rights. She can get outside the house and go to work, she can self-express and travel freely. Historically it is a huge step! So, I really do not realize what else women want.

I see that your argumentaton is mainly based on stereotypes and thus on public opinion. But the thing is that it all is outside us, firstly. Great majority of people have always followed established models of behaviour and thinking. And no one has a right to blame them. Stereotypes and "scripts" do make lives easier as it is already given plan of how we are supposed to live. So, you embrace exclusively social aspect. This problem can be solved just by training the ability to think for oneself. Everything should begin with each and every person individually. It is much easier to start with yourself rather than with the society. Politically, economically, socially, in most countries woman are given the opportunities. They are eligible to choose whether to build muscles or to give birth, or both; whether to wear skirts or costume, to have long hair or short hair cut. Stereotypes live also inside us. In fact they cannot be removed, but we can resist them. And you know, I would actually disagree with you that gender equality is being lost as we get older. I think it is vice versa as kids have little choice. Their view of the world is shaped by others. Getting older a person receives its own understanding of life and, if wants, can become if not fully free then at least independent of the outside stereotypes.

So, my point is that its is impossible and, besides, senseless to achieve complete gender equality as nature imposes its own rules. But it is quite possible to become more or less free from prejudices and just live your life on your own way.

And yes, I do apologize for my myriads of mistakes. English is not my mother tongue. I hope it"s not so horrible at least :D
ZzRanger

Pro

To my opponent, your arguments are interesting and this has been a good first debate for me. I appreciate your effort to participate in debates in English, even though it isn't your first language. Debating is hard enough, but to do it in a language that is potentially your second or third earns my respect. I would also like to clarify to all audience members that this is a debate over perspectives, and doesn't necessarily reflect our position on issues. So if I ever argue on the other, please don't call me a hypocrite :)

Now, onto the arguments. My first argument that gender equality is achieved through babies still stands. My opponent agreed with me on this argument. Because of this, by the wording of the question and the absence of another voting issue other than the one I presented (voting issue is why you should vote for me) ,which was if the pro can provide one example of it being achieved, then pro should win, the pro side should win the debate.

In the second round, my opponent argues that men and women are inherently different, which leads to the disparity in behaviors, and he cites that there are girls that exist who "rebel" against stereotypes. However, there is one problem with his logic chain presented. My viewpoint is the perspective that our behavior is influenced by others, and everyone has a different situation. The reason why some girls "refuse to follow the script" is because they are influenced by others around them, many times by other girls who act in a manner that they want to imitate. Because of this, all actions that humans engage in come from them responding to their environment.

Furthermore, we can see nurture over nature when comparing different races. Doing my best to not sound racist here, there tend to be more African Americans playing basketball and football. Is this attributed to them simply being innately better at these sports? No, on the contrary, it is due to their environment, with them being more likely to spend more time playing basketball or football. We can also see this with Asian Americans and education. Asian Americans, on average, perform better on standardized tests. Is this because they are inherently smarter, or because their environment shapes them in a way to make them better at standardized tests? I would advocate for the latter idea.

I don't really understand your third to last paragraph, it seems like you're talking about how stereotypes affect us and we can avoid it by training ourselves, but I don't quite get how it pertains to this debate about gender equality. And about your point on stereotypes, there really is no way for us to ever get rid of them, because to do so would mean adopting a 100% impartial view of the world, something impossible for us to do since we inherently have our biases.

My last and final point of how to achieve gender equality still stands as well. Because the question of debate isn't whether it is feasible to achieve gender equality, but rather if it's possible, the pro doesn't need to provide a practical way to achieve it, but present a hypothetical way to achieve it. It's like saying it's possible to ban guns, for example, even though it may not necessarily be feasible with the current political climate. Adding on to what I said earlier, if we were to somehow remove all biases of men and women when raising the next generation, we would be able to achieve gender equality, since the stereotypes of men and women would be gone. With the absence of men and women being different in the minds of this next generation, they will treat each other equally, because they will see each other as alike, as humans.

To sum up this entire debate, I believe you should vote pro because I have refuted my opponents arguments and have presented two reasons why I should win this debate, by presenting how gender equality is currently being achieved in our society, and how it can be achieved in the future.
Debate Round No. 2
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Zombieguy835 3 years ago
Zombieguy835
I would join. but why only two rounds?
Posted by 2far4u2CharlesDarwin 3 years ago
2far4u2CharlesDarwin
Who is on the horse for what is that horse?
Posted by 2far4u2CharlesDarwin 3 years ago
2far4u2CharlesDarwin
Where is the hell, Adam?
Posted by 2far4u2CharlesDarwin 3 years ago
2far4u2CharlesDarwin
Is it a disposition?
Is it a mans world?
Is it Eve or the snake at fault was the snake a male or a female?
Is our own existence creator both female and male as I know of nature?
Does a woman upon the battlefield cry for its mother as a male does?
Does a man in an orgasmic peak call out loud existence creator of nature?

I am not here to bash you over the head as the woman does to men, but I am here to kick you in the heals as a man will do for women.

Please understand the logic of women woman men man this is past present and future tense.

Please don't consider this to be logical reasoning as it is rational reasoning just as to be analytical, within the word diplomatic comes to mind.

Can the man be lateral and logical and can the woman be lateral and logical and still be on the same page?

Or does it go logic lateralise and the other is but the opposite viewpoint as to be laterally logic and but not be on the same page but to be upon the same playing field.

Would you like a game of chess. Maybe man and woman are as the queen and the king upon a chess board.

Men have singular moves and women has all the moves but can overpower the king by entrapment of the corner of the board. For that is why a man has to use all of his pieces to win. So let us change the moves of the king to be as robust as the queen and the queen to have but singular moves shall we.

Peace be with you.
Posted by 2far4u2CharlesDarwin 3 years ago
2far4u2CharlesDarwin
Well seems that I can not debate with you as i

The following exception(s) occurred:
You are already engaged in an open debate with novilona. You cannot accept another open debate from them until your current debate has concluded. Maybe I could be debating with the site regs as, to begin with; A more fitting word in the text above "from" should it be with?

So I shall with your without your permission TYPE within this comments box.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Emily77 3 years ago
Emily77
novilonaZzRangerTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: I would have liked to see some sources to actually confirm any of this. Moreover, I think some of the opinions and arguments presented here are actually logically invalid (either of you could have rebutted these with some use of evidentiary support).

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