The Instigator
nodogma
Pro (for)
The Contender
Avoid_Everything
Con (against)

Is the Bible canon the foundation of a great con?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 390 times Debate No: 109973
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

nodogma

Pro

The great con goes on.

Religion has been used to control people from its beginning. It goes like this, "As long as you believe in certain things like the Bible and Jesus, your conscience can take a back seat while you are driven by the powers that be: money, the job, the church or the nation."

I am convinced that Constantine took sacred writings, which thousands of his people believed to be inspired by God, and edited and sorted them, and then he duped those who believed so that they would be loyal to his empire by giving their taxes and by waging his wars with their lives. This I believe was the primary purpose of Constantine commissioning his priests to organize the canon we have today.

This is not much different from Dodge taking a few of the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and using them in a commercial, during the Superbowl, in order to get people to identify a beautiful idea with their new pickups. It is a way to get people to buy into an idea; it is a way to con people. This is not unlike what we have today when certain politicians identify with Jesus, and, in turn, Christians, many times, blindly condone whatever the so-called Christian politicians try to do"the Bible believers.

The Bible is merely a collection of books, and, if there is a God, I could not understand why that God would want to be identified with a book or collection of books organized by Constantine and his priests.

But I can understand why the Apostle Paul would claim his purpose is from God if he thought that his people"thousands of Hebrews"were being oppressed by the Temple cult and the religious leaders of his day. He could use a martyr, looked up to by the people, as God's chosen sacrifice to deliver them from their sins in order to free them from the Temple cult--he calls the law. This primary theme of Paul is found in several of his letters. The most plain to me is in Romans: "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (Romans 7:6). If we are released from the old law in order to serve in the new way of the Spirit, why would we need a new written law?

This is my assertion: whoever Jesus was (a very good man who spoke up against the oppression and got himself killed by the cruel leaders) Paul used as a way to deliver his people from the oppressive cult. This liberation not only applied to Hebrews but also to Gentiles who were trapped by different religious cults as well. As Christianity and this kind of religious/spiritual liberation grew, the Roman Emperors fell out of favor with the people because many Emperors claimed equality with God. So Constantine got this great idea: "to be converted himself!" He knew that the people would doubt his conversion; that is, until he commissioned and paid his priests to take some of the most sacred writings, edit them a bit and burn the ones they disagreed with, and then the people would identify Constantine as a ruler sent from God to establish their faith further. In a way, it was genius.

However, living according to a written code is a contradiction to the Apostle Paul's primary message. The original message was a liberation from an oppressive set of laws"which Paul went as far to call a "law of sin and death." Faith in a another set of books"even if those books which were authored by the likes of Paul"is not the primary goal or practice of the original message of Paul. To assert that all must hold these books as authoritative is a distortion of the message of many of the books in the New Testament. Further, those who quote passages or claim to be Christian in order to be identified with the faith in order to gain favor and further their own ambitions are most guilty of the very evil essence of which Paul wrote against.

Although they quoted Scripture, believing in the Bible is not the essence of Paul's message nor of Christ who he taught. Now, those Bible believers who side with certain politician because those politicians claim to be Christian or because they believe the Bible have been duped just like those in Constantine's day. God is not a book or a belief. God is Spirit. You cannot tell who is and who is not of God by their claims or by them attending church or going to a prayer breakfast"even if they are elected to some office: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).
Avoid_Everything

Con

Your argument is a little all over the place, so I will go ahead and narrow it down to specific points.

1. You're saying that the bible is used to control people

2. The bible was written with the intention to make money and wage wars.

3. Christians blindly follow Christian politicians, solely on the basis of their advertised beliefs.

Allow me to explain this to you because I, once was in your shoes.

Not nearly as many Christians actually believe in the bible as you think they do. In fact, most think it's BS. I think it's BS. God does not exist. This is coming from a prior vicar.

Yes religion makes a boatload of money. Yes, the authors of the bible made quite a bit of money, Yes, religion was a reason used for conquest.

However, the main and only purpose of religion is to provide common ground for a society. The less that religion exists, the more fragmented people become. Why is this? Because life has no purpose. Many people can handle this, many people can't. For many, attending church every sunday with people that they believe care about them is what they look forward to. It provides an instant community.

It happens to be Christianity in most 1st world countries. It could literally be anything though. If everyone was an avid knitter, a required sunday knitting circle could provide that same sense of community and purpose. In china, where they have virtually no religion, they have deep family values, culture, and nationalism.

The more rule-less society becomes and the more that traditional family values become abandoned, the worse things will get. We will feel lonelier than ever, people will have no direction or goals. We will become countries based solely upon social media, where everyone thinks that they're a walking celebrity. No respect for authority, and not being able to accept reality.

The reason that Christian politicians are favored is because they are viewed as people who want to preserve the traditional way of life. Yes religion is BS, but it's all we have.
Debate Round No. 1
nodogma

Pro

The great con goes on.

Religion has been used to control people from its beginning. It goes like this, "As long as you believe in certain things like the Bible and Jesus, your conscience can take a back seat while you are driven by the powers that be: money, the job, the church or the nation."

I am convinced that Constantine took sacred writings, which thousands of his people believed to be inspired by God, and edited and sorted them, and then he duped those who believed so that they would be loyal to his empire by giving their taxes and by waging his wars with their lives. This I believe was the primary purpose of Constantine commissioning his priests to organize the canon we have today.

This is not much different from Dodge taking a few of the words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and using them in a commercial, during the Superbowl, in order to get people to identify a beautiful idea with their new pickups. It is a way to get people to buy into an idea; it is a way to con people. This is not unlike what we have today when certain politicians identify with Jesus, and, in turn, Christians, many times, blindly condone whatever the so-called Christian politicians try to do"the Bible believers.

The Bible is merely a collection of books, and, if there is a God, I could not understand why that God would want to be identified with a book or collection of books organized by Constantine and his priests.

But I can understand why the Apostle Paul would claim his purpose is from God if he thought that his people"thousands of Hebrews"were being oppressed by the Temple cult and the religious leaders of his day. He could use a martyr, looked up to by the people, as God's chosen sacrifice to deliver them from their sins in order to free them from the Temple cult--he calls the law. This primary theme of Paul is found in several of his letters. The most plain to me is in Romans: "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code" (Romans 7:6). If we are released from the old law in order to serve in the new way of the Spirit, why would we need a new written law?

This is my assertion: whoever Jesus was (a very good man who spoke up against the oppression and got himself killed by the cruel leaders) Paul used as a way to deliver his people from the oppressive cult. This liberation not only applied to Hebrews but also to Gentiles who were trapped by different religious cults as well. As Christianity and this kind of religious/spiritual liberation grew, the Roman Emperors fell out of favor with the people because many Emperors claimed equality with God. So Constantine got this great idea: "to be converted himself!" He knew that the people would doubt his conversion; that is, until he commissioned and paid his priests to take some of the most sacred writings, edit them a bit and burn the ones they disagreed with, and then the people would identify Constantine as a ruler sent from God to establish their faith further. In a way, it was genius.

However, living according to a written code is a contradiction to the Apostle Paul's primary message. The original message was a liberation from an oppressive set of laws"which Paul went as far to call a "law of sin and death." Faith in a another set of books"even if those books which were authored by the likes of Paul"is not the primary goal or practice of the original message of Paul. To assert that all must hold these books as authoritative is a distortion of the message of many of the books in the New Testament. Further, those who quote passages or claim to be Christian in order to be identified with the faith in order to gain favor and further their own ambitions are most guilty of the very evil essence of which Paul wrote against.

Although they quoted Scripture, believing in the Bible is not the essence of Paul's message nor of Christ who he taught. Now, those Bible believers who side with certain politician because those politicians claim to be Christian or because they believe the Bible have been duped just like those in Constantine's day. God is not a book or a belief. God is Spirit. You cannot tell who is and who is not of God by their claims or by them attending church or going to a prayer breakfast"even if they are elected to some office: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

You wrote, "Yes religion makes a boatload of money. Yes, the authors of the bible made quite a bit of money, Yes, religion was a reason used for conquest." At this point you seem to agree with me.

I am not debating, "the main and only purpose of religion is to provide common ground for a society." Although I strongly disagree with you, this is not what I am debating. It may seem like the common ground to some but it is not, for example, there are plenty of atheist and anarchist, etc. who do not need this common ground.

I am not debating "Christianity in most 1st world countries." I am debating whether or not the Bible is a con.

I am not debating, "the more rule-less society becomes and the more that traditional family values become abandoned." Many anarchists would disagree with you on that one tooand many atheist if those rules come from religion.

I am not debating, "The reason that Christian politicians are favored."

I am not debating that religion is all that we have either. Also, there are plenty of atheist, deists, anarchists, scientists who would strongly disagree.

I am debating the Bible as a con, and the con goes on.
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by nodogma 3 years ago
nodogma
I apologize for not deleting my previous post before posting my last argument in my response.
Posted by nodogma 3 years ago
nodogma
Many conservative Christians do, I believe, are swayed by certain religious statements by politicians. A certain acquaintance of mine actually thinks it was Biblical to vote for our present President. Many may not but many are swayed.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
Very rarely do people just side with a politician as soon as they say that they are Christian. Most people are already skeptical of almost all politicians, so very rarely do people just believe everything they say.
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