The Instigator
jrardin12
Con (against)
The Contender
shashanksk04
Pro (for)

Is the United States Fundamentally Immoral and Wrong?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/17/2018 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 438 times Debate No: 117781
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

jrardin12

Con

Pro starts
shashanksk04

Pro

The United States has been built and premised on the subjugation of the African-American minority, From the day of its creation till present date. It has been built fundamentally on discrimination and racism, And has been intrinsically abhorrent to minority communities.

In view of this, Here is my stance:
- I support and condone the view that the United States has committed morally appalling and horrific actions in the past, And although it is not completely morally bankrupt, It is most definitely not morally sound, And I will be substantiating this view through the forthcoming rounds.
- I reject the view that the the US is a horrifying country, But what I do in fact support is that it simply cannot be
given the title of 'morally acceptable'.

It is my burden to prove to you that the US has done more harm than good on a moral level, And team Con has to show to us why the US is justified in committing the moral atrocities that it has committed, And is still committing today, And show us why the US has done more good for its people than harm on a moral level.

I will be bringing three substantive arguments to you today:
(a) The US was built on the subjugation of the African-Americans
(b) The US still imposes a discriminatory framework on minorities
(c) Populist ideologies and propaganda of the Republican Party promote and perpetuate harmful stereotypes (I will explain this argument in the next round)

(a) The US was built on the subjugation of the African-Americans
As I already explained in my above introduction, The USA has uniquely harmed this minority community, And has used their subjugation as a catalyst to develop their own country. Three reasons why this has uniquely harmed the African Americans:
1. They were forcefully displaced from their home country and made to work as slaves
In the 18th century, The African-Americans did not move to the newly-established United States of America out of their own free will. It was quite the opposite, In fact. They were forcefully shoved onto disease-infested ships, To travel the long and arduous journey across the Atlantic Ocean to the US, And as soon as they got there, They were sold to the rich white Americans to be their slaves, Performing menial labor for them while receiving little to no wages. Two consequences that this has posed. First, The African-Americans were forcefully driven out of their home country, And were not given the basic opportunity to choose where to live for themselves. Second, This violated their basic human rights that they were given by virtue of being a human being. Slavery threw them into a deep abyss from which they are still trying to claw their way out of.
2. They were disenfranchised
From the creation of the so-called democratic framework of the US, These African-Americans were denied the basic right to be heard in a democracy. For years together, They were not allowed to vote, Or even voice their political opinions to society. They were denied their basic democratic right to be heard. Even though their situation has improved in the recent years, They are still not treated as equals. Their opinions, Even if voiced, Are still not taken seriously. This was a fundamental problem with the establishment of the democratic framework of the US, And is an intrinsic and abhorrent problem that needs to be addressed.
3. They were isolated from society
Since the creation of the US, The African-Americans were treated as 'others', Or 'inferiors'. They were treated as the scum of society and were harshly discriminated against and alienated. They were never given a safe haven, A place were they could truly feel comfortable, A place that they could call home. Instead, They were pushed away by society. They were never treated as equals, Or even as humans. White people would spit at African-Americans on the street, And would make them feel unwanted. White parents would tell their children not to play with the black kids, They would tell them not to talk to them, To be scared of them. This, Also, Was a systemic problem with the US, Intrinsic to the foundation of the country.

(b) The US still imposes a discriminatory framework on minorities
We see today, That the US actively neglects many minorities. We see that people of the LGBTQ community are actively discriminated against, And are frowned upon in the US. We see that more than half of the US states don't even have anti-discriminatory laws, And turn a blind eye to instances of harsh discrimination, And even incitement of violence on members of these communities. What this tells us is that the US has essentially ignored the fundamental rights of individuals belonging to these communities, And this in itself is morally appalling. But what we see increasingly in the recent years, Are instances of harsh discrimination and violence towards members f these communities. We observe things like police brutality, Things like racist judges, And things like an unfair criminal justice system, All posing major threats to members of minority communities. What we also observe is that, Especially in the cases of police brutality and a racist judicial system, These problems are highly prevalent the US. These are highly pervasive and threatening problems which we have seen throughout the recent years especially in countries like the US. Also, Along with the fact that less than half of the US states even have anti-discriminatory policies, This shows us that these problems are remaining static, And are showing little, Slow, If not no signs of improvement. What does this tell us? This tells us that the US, From creation till date, Have been an absolute nightmare for minorities to live in, And have provided little but racism and discrimination for these communities. Also, This tells us that the US, From the beginning have been fundamentally morally skewed and have shown little to no signs of improvement.

What have I shown you? I've shown you that the US was built and premised in the subjugation of the African-Americans, And that the US has provided nothing but a discriminatory framework for minority communities. Side Pro clearly has the moral high ground in this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
jrardin12

Con

The United States has been built and premised on the subjugation of the African-American minority, From the day of its creation"

The above statement is not true. When Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, He meant the blacks as well, For he realized that they also were created by the same God. The same goes for the men who signed it. I will simply state what Lincoln said when responding to Taney and the Democrats who supported the idea that the Founders did not include the blacks. Lincoln said, "I believe the entire records of the world, From the date of the Declaration of Independence up to within three years ago (1854), May be searched in vain for one single affirmation, From one single man, That the Negro was not included in the Declaration of Independence. " The evidences for this that Lincoln used were: 1. ) At the Congress of Confederation in 1784 a vote was called to prohibit slavery in the Northwest Territory. Four future framers of the Constitution were present with three voting in favor of prohibition of slavery in the new territory. Three years later it came up again and two more future framers voted for the prohibition in the same territories. In 1789 when Congress voted on the Northwest Ordinance sixteen framers were present with all of them voting to ban slavery in the Northwest Territory. 2. ) In 1804 two framers were called to add similar prohibitions for the Louisiana Purchase. They voted for the restriction and also for a future ban on slave importation. In 1820 two surviving framers of the Constitution were in Congress at the Missouri Compromise, One voted in favor of banning slavery and the other against. According to Lincoln, In the manner of a lawyer, With twenty-three of the thirty-nine framers- "a clear majority"-voted on the question of slavery expansion, Of those twenty-one, Almost an unanimity, Sided with banning or restricting slavery. Additionally, Of the sixteen framers who did not leave a voting record on the subject all, But John Rutledge were antislavery men. Then Lincoln introduced his final tally, Thirty-six to three on the restriction of slavery. So like Lincoln I ask you to name one framer or person during the time of the Founding that said blacks were not included in the Declaration of Independence.

"Con has to show to us why the US is justified in committing the moral atrocities that it has committed, And is still committing today. "

I do not justify any atrocities committed in the US, But I do go after the Democratic party for allowing slavery and will present my case after Pro has given his on why the Republicans are the evil ones because I know he will mention the fantastical Big Switch that never happened.

"This violated their basic human rights that they were given by virtue of being a human being. "

I agree slavery violates human rights. As shown above the Founding Father agreed with this position because after all they agreed with the Declaration of Independence.

"For years together, They were not allowed to vote, Or even voice their political opinions to society. "

This is not the fault of the US, But of Democrats as I will show later. As for voicing political opinion, Let me introduce you to Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth.

"Even though their situation has improved in the recent years, They are still not treated as equals. Their opinions, Even if voiced, Are still not taken seriously. "

I can name you many black people on both sides of the political aisle who voice their opinion on FOX NEWS, And CNN. Famous movie stars, Musicians and sports figures give their opinion all the time. What black person is denied The Great American Dream. Many blacks are rich and prosperous. All blacks have the same opportunities in America.

"They were isolated from society"

I have read of many blacks that moved in the upper crust of society throughout American history, Let me give you some names: https://www. U-s-history. Com/pages/h3736. Html. Sorry I was going to put them all here, But there were too many names to mention before the 1965 Civil Rights Act. Also the over 300 black slave owners who socialized with whites.

"We see that people of the LGBTQ community are actively discriminated against. "

Please tell me how. They have the right to vote, Assemble, Religion, Carry arms, Voice their opinion and freedom of the press, The same as everyone else. But what you want is for them the have extra rights. Like the right for me to say that what they do is wrong.

As far as police brutality, Yes there are instances, But not as common as the media makes out. Racist judges? Give me an example. Racial judicial system, How so? You must prove you point. What do you mean anti-discriminatory laws? As far as I know we have no Jim Crow laws any more.
shashanksk04

Pro

I think it's honestly quite funny when side Con comes here and tries to justify racial discrimination in the US by putting it all on the shoulders of the democrats because there's two things to note here. One, Whether it was the Republicans or the Democrats, The fact of the matter is that both parties represent the US, So even if you want to blame the democrats for all of it, That doesn't change the fact that the democrats are part of the US, So the US should be held accountable for these horrific actions. Two, The absurd assertion that it is all the democrats' fault is completely untrue, Because it was the Republicans that set the foundation for the US. Your precious Founding Fathers that you want to talk so much about were Republicans, And the practice of slavery happened on their watch. George Washington, The first president of the US was himself an infamous slave owner.

Having established this, Let's move on to the rest of Con's claims, Which have been argued in a similar, Laughable fashion. The first claim that came out of Con's side of the house was that the African-Americans were also included in the Declaration of Independence, So this justified everything. Two responses here. First, Even if the African-Americans were included somewhere in the fine lines of the Declaration, This doesn't change the fact that they were systematically discriminated against by the people of the US. This doesn't change the fact that the African-Americans were treated like scum by the rest of society. This doesn't change the fact that African-Americans were not given a safe and atmosphere to live in, A place to call home. Second, I challenge the idea that African-Americans were even included in the Declaration, And even if they were, I challenge the relevance of that inclusion, Because a bunch of political figures sitting around and discussing whether slavery is justified, Discussing whether abolishing slavery will have harmful repercussions on slave owners does not solve the inherent problem. This does not solve the problem that African-Americans are being largely discriminated against. What does solve the problem is taking immediate action against violators, Taking immediate action towards the betterment of the lives of these people, Which took the US around a hundred years to realize.

Side Con's second claim was in response to my argument on why African-Americans were disenfranchised. As a feeble response to this, Con said that there were a few people like Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, And Sojourner Truth that were able to voice their political beliefs. This does not deal with the fact that yes, There were some remarkable people who were able to stand up to the face of oppression, But the majority of the African-Americans, The common people, Were the most affected. They were the ones who could not voice their opinions in public, Like everyone else in society, They were the ones who could not be heard. Side Con has to challenge the situation of these people, Rather than feebly providing a few remarkable caveats. Then, As a sort of sub-point under this, Con tried to challenge my analysis on why even though the situation has changed for these people, They were not treated as equals, By saying that some famous African-American actors or sportspeople voiced their opinions "all the time" on media outlets like Fox News and CNN. Two things to note here. One, This still doesn't comply with my argument on how even though these people are getting more of an opportunity to speak about their opinion, Their opinions are not taken seriously. Their opinions are simply not considered of equal importance to those of the white majority. Second, Even if a few actors and sportspeople are getting to voice their opinions in public, Like I said before, The majority of the African-Americans, The common people, Are still being ignored. Their opinions are still not being recognized. Again, Side Con cannot simply talk about the remarkable few people who are able to voice their opinions. Con has to actually deal with the majority of these people who are still being suppressed, Whose voices are not being heard. You want to ask ask us, And I quote, "What black person is denied the Great American Dream? " Tell that the the African-American who is not accepted into college because of his skin color. Tell that to the African-American who is denied a job based on his ethnicity.

The next big claim that came out of side Con was in response to my analysis on why African-Americans were isolated from society. Con said that there were a lot of African-Americans who made it big in society, So everything is all right. There was no alienation whatsoever. The fact of the matter is, In fact, That this claim was also similar to Con's previous other claims. It dealt with a few African-Americans that made it big. It did not deal with the fact that the majority of the people, The common people, Whom side Con has been conveniently throughout this debate, Were actually isolated. They were spat at on the streets, And were not allowed to interact with the Whites. You want to talk about "Black slave owners socializing with Whites"? Why not talk about the huge amount of African-American slaves, And their appalling treatment, Instead? Insofar as this argument proves that the majority of African-Americans were in fact isolated, Were in fact alienated, That is what Con needs to respond to in this debate. Not simply give us a few outstanding examples and call it a response.

Then, Con came up and rejected the idea of the LGBTQ community being discriminated against. Firstly, Around 30 US states do not even have anti-discrimination laws, Which, Since you asked, Are laws that prohibit discrimination against these communities. That's more than half of the US states wherein LGBTQ people aren't even given the basic rights that they deserve. That's more than half of the US states wherein the administration says it's okay that you were denied a job based on you sexual orientation. Its okay if you were beaten up on the streets because you were holding hands with your partner. We won't give you any protection. We won't even punish the horrifying acts that you were a victim of. I think this is a fundamentally abhorrent way for any government to treat these people. Side Con needs to delve deep into my arguments and actually refute their basis, Not simply provide some feeble response and call it a rebuttal.

Lastly, Side Con came up here and asked me to give them instances of racist judges and a racist judicial system. I will do just that right now. Just a few years back, In 2016, Around five African-Americans were arrested for every one White person, As a result of racist prosecutors, Racist judges, And overall, A racist judiciary. This shocking statistic received backlash from all over the world. Even now, In 2018, There are three African-Americans incarcerated for every one white person. You wanted a clarification, You've got it.

At the end of this rebuttal session, Two things to note. Firstly, Con only seems to respond to the outer fringes of my case, And I've taken down even that, But Con never seems to respond to the nuanced argumentation that I presented to you. Con only responds to technicalities, While not delving deep and actually providing responses to the crux of my case. This in itself should be a clear reason to vote for side Pro. But now, I will present to you my third substantive argument:

(c) Populist ideologies and propaganda of the Republican Party promote and perpetuate harmful stereotypes
Two strands under this argument:
1. The conservative ideologies of the Republican Party perpetuates harmful views about minority communities
Why is this true? We see that most conservative views tend to believe in ideologies that are not necessarily modern and liberal. What does this look like? This looks like LGBTQ communities not being given fundamental rights because of views like "marriage should take place only between a man and a woman, Because a man can only be sexually attracted to a woman, And vice versa", Or "white people are superior to black people". Especially because the Republican Party is so popular among the people of the US, These are the kinds of views that tend to be imposed on society. These are the kinds of views that the Average Joe starts to believe in, And so these are the kinds of views that society as a whole believes in. Any conflicting views are stifled, Any different opinions are quickly silenced.
2. Political discourse is spoiled because of a disregard for political correctness
When politicians need to say things like "Mexicans are Rapists" or "Illegal Immigrant aliens should get out now" to be able to talk about issues like immigration, I think this does two things. One, This spoils the original conversation to the extent at which meaningful discussion about real, Fundamental issues are not able to take place. Two, It promotes and perpetuates the already existing stereotypes that exist in the minds of the supporters of these parties and, In extreme cases, Can even incite violence against these communities, Like, For example, Many Muslim women were attacked, Verbally and physically, After President Trump's rallies in those areas. This only entrenches the harmful, And often untrue stereotypes about these communities, And can put them in an even worse position than they were in before.

In this argument, I have proved two things to you. Firstly, I have proved that the Republican Party often puts forth harmful, And often untrue stereotypes about these communities. Secondly, I have proved that the Republican Party often incites violence and hatred against these communities, Which result in horrendous crimes and violations of rights of these communities. What does this show you? This shows you that the leading political party of the US actively harms these minorities. On a moral level, It is unquestionably clear who takes this debate. Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 2
jrardin12

Con

"Whether it was the Republicans or the Democrats, The fact of the matter is that both parties represent the US. " Does it really? Does the Republican Congress represent you right now? Obviously neither party has had complete control of Congress, Thus both parties have had senators or representatives who have voted against bills and their constituents were happy they did even though they lost the vote. When Obamacare passed the senator I supported voted against. Therefore Obamacare does not represent me.

"Because it was the Republicans that set the foundation for the US. Your precious Founding Fathers that you want to talk so much about were Republicans, And the practice of slavery happened on their watch. George Washington, The first president of the US was himself an infamous slave owner. " In this I agree for the most part. However, What you fail to mention is that Washington was antislavery to the core. Obviously he did not free his slaves, But he extensively opposed the practice in his letters, "There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, To see a plan adopted for the abolition of it. " He also freed all his slaves at his death bed. You fail to mention why they allowed slavery to continue which is very important history. The reason why they allowed slavery was to make sure a union under a Constitution happened. The debates on abolition of slavery during the Constitutional Convention were long and heated as shown in Joseph J. Ellis' book Founding Brothers. In the end, However, The states of South Carolina and Georgia would not agree on any form of emancipation whether it would have been gradual or immediate. The Founding Father's decided that the issue was moot in order to keep the Union, However, The three-fifths clause and the promise of ending the slave trade by 1800 made sure a pathway toward emancipation was started.

"I challenge the idea that African-Americans were even included in the Declaration" Please do.

" The common people, Were the most affected. " I take great offense that you think Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, And Sojourner Truth were not common people. Do you think they were living in some mansion in New York! They represented the common black people because they were part of the common black people. I am sure they were the heroes of many poor black children. Please read 12 Years a Slave. That man was treated with respect and he lived in a middle class type home.

"Their opinions are not taken seriously. Their opinions are simply not considered of equal importance to those of the white majority. " Please explain what you mean and tell me how.

"Even if a few actors and sportspeople are getting to voice their opinions in public, Like I said before, The majority of the African-Americans, The common people, Are still being ignored. " I thought the actors and sportpeople were standing up for the common black person. News to me that it is otherwise. You should tell Marshawn Lynch that because he feels that by sitting for the national anthem he is speaking for the majority of black Americans. You say the common people, Define that because if you mean that the average black joe on the street is not on tv giving his opinion well let me give you some news, I haven't been on tv either to voice my opinion and I am sure even FOX News would not be interested in what I have to say.

"Tell that the the African-American who is not accepted into college because of his skin color. Tell that to the African-American who is denied a job based on his ethnicity. " Give me instances where this has happened in the last 18 years.

"Black slave owners socializing with Whites"? Why not talk about the huge amount of African-American slaves, And their appalling treatment. " Of course this happened, I am not saying it didn't. But you were not talking only about slaves you made a broad statement. Broad statements are not good to make in a debate for the opposing side can give examples. Again I am appalled that you call blacks who went from being nothing to making a living as not a part of the common people. How do you think they started out? In the north, During the slave years blacks were treated as human beings in most instances. Read In the Heart of the Sea. Again, The North was run mainly by Wigs and Republicans and in the South by Democrats. You forgot to mention the over 300 black slave owners who participated in society with whites. Black Americans were treated better in rural areas and small town controlled by Wigs and Republicans that those in cities like New York which was controlled by Northers Democrats.

"That's more than half of the US states wherein the administration says it's okay that you were denied a job based on you sexual orientation. Its okay if you were beaten up on the streets because you were holding hands with your partner. We won't give you any protection. We won't even punish the horrifying acts that you were a victim of. " Why is it wrong for a business owner to refuse to hire a gay person. I don't think it is wrong for a gay business owner to refuse to hire a Christian. I have heard of gays kicking Christians out of their businesses and I am sad that their are people like that, But they have a right to run their business as they see fit and I have the right to boycott. Secondly, Name me one business that discriminates on hiring gays. Second it is never right to beat anyone up on the street and there are laws in every State that penalize assault against anyone. Again, Homosexuals are allowed to vote, Carry arms, Worship as they want, Freedom of the press, Freedom of assembly and all other rights granted in the Constitution.

"In 2018, There are three African-Americans incarcerated for every one white person. " My question to you now is how many were because they did not commit a crime?

"While not delving deep and actually providing responses to the crux of my case. " I have gone very deep. From citing Lincoln to talking about individual black Americans. You have not gone deep by just generalizing.

"The conservative ideologies of the Republican Party perpetuates harmful views about minority communities" We believe that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness. Which is why the unemployment numbers for Black Americans is at a record low. However, It must be with Consent of the Governed. The conservative does not believe one group is better than another, But each individual is responsible to make his way in America. Each person decides how he will live out the American Dream. It is the Democrats who keep the majority of black American on their urban plantations. Who run these urban plantations? Is it the Republicans? I say no. It is the Democrats. They say that they are for blacks, But they keep them in the gang controlled, Murder infested and broken family creating urban plantation. And those who try to leave are denounced as Uncle Toms for they cannot lose any voters.

"Political discourse is spoiled because of a disregard for political correctness" Political Correctess was a term used by the Nazi"s and Fascists. We are for Americanism. We want immigrants from all over the world who want to come and be American. Indeed, Most African, Asian and Latino immigrants who come in legally quickly assimilate themselves in the American way of life. Those who enter in illegally seek to undermine and cause chaos by trying to make America multicultural instead of American. We don"t misinform people. When we report that 70% of women and girls who make the trip to the US to enter illegally are raped by Mexicans, We mean it. We know the Democrats don"t want to talk about it because it would inform people and would harm their agenda to bring in train loads of new voters, But illegal immigration must stop, Something even Obama was for.

"I have proved that the Republican Party often incites violence and hatred against these communities". Pro fails again to give instances where Republicans incite violence and hatred. While covering up the Democrats actions of violence, Indecency and destruction of property by anti-fa and occupy wall street movements.
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
States Rights Washington Bites. Move the Capital to Virginia and turn DC into the National grave yard.
Posted by shashanksk04 3 years ago
shashanksk04
@jrardin12 my timer glitched. I thought I had 14 hours left so I went to sleep, But I woke up and found out that the timer was uo (I only slept for 8 hours).
Posted by AumOne 3 years ago
AumOne
America owes everything to everyone else.

The system is the perfect illusion for you is fooled and your moral has been abused and manipulated don't believe what you believe because you are not to blame.

The revolution is here and here to happen.
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