The Instigator
Ryang5859
Con (against)
The Contender
mtcline6
Pro (for)

Is the bible a source of good morality?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/30/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 510 times Debate No: 116141
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
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Ryang5859

Con

The bible is not a source of positive morality. While there are many parables and passages that do indeed offer beneficial and positive ideas and insight. It is vastly overshadowed by its negative views and principles. This is abundant throughout both testaments, specifically the old testament. With such verses commanding the follows of the lord to commit genocide, murder, rape, torture, slavery and much, much more. This ultimately discredits the bible in its entirety. Not just because the majority of its commands are negative and counter-productive to a society. But also because what positive principles and morals it does offer, (that many Christians like to claim as the bible being a source of good) are not unique to the Bible or Christians and are found throughout the world in many cultures and civilisations, separate from one another.

"do unto others as you would want done unto you" Is a famous reference for Christians to quote from Jesus. However, this message is found in almost every civilisation, including China hundreds of years before the birth of Christ by Confucious. (The golden rule)

The fact is, and ultimately, the negative morals of the bible far outweigh the positive, what positive morals there are, are in no way unique to the bible of the Christian God. From this, we can conclude that the bible is neither a reliable nor a positive source of morality for humans.
It is secular human nations and man-made justice systems that have created the most positive moral systems in place today. bill of rights, civil liberties, human rights etc. All created by people when we come together, free from hatred and religion, all in the name of progress.

If you accept this debate, please keep it factual and non-emotional for the sake of a logical and productive conversation.
mtcline6

Pro

The Bible IS a good source of morality. Yes, although there are multiple instances where immoral actions were committed, that does not mean it is not "reliable" and should be disregarded as a source of good. You claim that the Bible contains "verses commanding the follows of the lord to commit genocide, murder, rape, torture, slavery and much, much more," but you are looking at the stories totally wrong. Yes, there are stories of rape, murder, slavery, etc. But the Old Testament was created as an example to people. God provided and gave the truth about these characters, their sin, their wrongs and rights, and their choices to help and teach us what we need to know when making good choices and decisions as followers. And those actions you stated were not always commanded by the lord. Followers were enslaved, killed, tortured, etc. Moses saved the Israelites, who were enslaved in Egypt. Many of those verses you're talking about have followers of God as the victims. Yes, God did tell people to commit evil actions, but they were usually as an act of faith. For example, Jephthah vowed to kill the next person who walked out the door in exchange for defeating the Ammonites. His daughter walked out, so he killed her a year later and fulfilled his promise to God. However, him killing one person saved thousands of Israelites in the process. These evil acts that God made happen tested people's faith and usually were made to save other lives.

The Old Testament sets up the New Testament. It is the history of the Christian faith. God put evil into the world because it's life. Everything can't be perfect just because you believe in God. You have to endure through difficult situations with faith. In America, we had an evil past as well. We owned slaves, we tortured others, we put Japanese Americans in internment camps, we were racist, we formed the KKK, we denied other people's rights. But we don't claim that our history isn't a "reliable source." We don't claim that our history isn't a good source of morality. It is. It allows others to think back on what happened in the past, and allows people to learn how to fix the wrongs in society, as well as teaching them how to keep the same evils from happening again.
Debate Round No. 1
Ryang5859

Con

" but you are looking at the stories totally wrong. "

I don't believe so, but let's see how you think so.

" But the Old Testament was created as an example to people. God provided and gave the truth about these characters, their sin, their wrongs and rights, and their choices to help and teach us what we need to know when making good choices and decisions as followers. "

No, this is just factually wrong, the old testament is a collection of writings from prophets. The men of which God directly spoke to. If you wish to claim these were only to " teach us what we need to know when making good choices and decisions as followers " Then I would challenge you to reference the part of the bible that states we do not need to adhere to the teachings of the old testament.
You will find you cannot do this, as the bible is very clear on these laws and commands. Even Jesus Christ the son of God (Or God himself depending on if you believe in the trinity) states, that he himself was there not to change the old laws but to fulfil them. Many of the gospels state this, some examples are:


"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

These are just three examples from three different gospels clearly stating the law of the old testament was to be followed and not changed. To do so even effects your ability to enter heaven.

" And those actions you stated were not always commanded by the lord. "

Irrelevant. The fact is many, many of them where, we know humans in our early history were capable of atrocities, we still are today. That is not what this debate is about, we are debating the morality of a God that commands his followers to commit murder, rape and genocide. The fact that ' well, God wasn't the only one ordering them' is not a valid excuse or justification for them. If anything that proves more and more that (if he is real) he is just as violent and evil as the humans he claims superiority to.

" Yes, God did tell people to commit evil actions, but they were usually as an act of faith. "

This only further proves my point. Some of the most brutal and evil atrocities to happen in human history have happened in the name of faith. Furthermore, this does not justify the evil acts in the first place. A holy bible that would command its followers to commit any kind of 'evil act' let alone acts of rape and murder, is just insurmountable proof that it is not a moral book and is not a source of positive morality.

" These evil acts that God made happen tested people's faith and usually were made to save other lives. "

More often then not, the ends do not justify the means. The Murder of an innocent person is hardly ever justified, least of all your own children. A true source of morality would not bestow that situation on a person. They would overcome it.
Most importantly the key word you used. 'faith'.
The very definition of faith is the belief in something without evidence. A book that would have you commit murder of an innocent without proof that it will actually result in saving others is even worse than knowing 100% it would. It is completely unjustified and immoral.

" The Old Testament sets up the New Testament. It is the history of the Christian faith. "

And the Jewish and Islamic faith (not that it relevant in this debate, just saying)

" God put evil into the world because it's life. Everything can't be perfect just because you believe in God. "

No, but as a God, he could have created life without evil, he chose to put it in. If the bible is accurate evil only exists because God allows it. Your point is void.

" You have to endure through difficult situations with faith. "
False, there are many people in the world (myself included) that endure hardship and suffering without faith, it is not required to make it through hardship, it is, however, an excuse for it.

" we had an evil past as well. We owned slaves, we tortured others, we put Japanese Americans in internment camps, we were racist, we formed the KKK, we denied other people's rights."

Indeed, did you also know that half of what you have mentioned is also sanctioned in the bible?

" We don't claim that our history isn't a good source of morality. It is. It allows others to think back on what happened in the past, and allows people to learn how to fix the wrongs in society, as well as teaching them how to keep the same evils from happening again. "

Part of that is true, but how is it that 'fixing wrongs in a society based on history' is accomplished? Is it done so by an intervening God? Or did a secular justice system and government change the laws in society to ensure they didn't happen again? (its the latter)

The bible did not help to change current laws in society, worse still (and bringing this back to the topic) the bible actually sanctions and was the source of many of those evils. The KKK was a Christian group that believed in racial supremacy. Slavery in the US was sanctioned by the Bible, it even taught the slaves to be faithful to their worldly masters Ephesians 6:5-9. Did you also know that slaves in the US were mostly forbidden to read books? Can you guess which book was the only exception to this? That's right, the Bible. Not only did it prove to slaves, that the slave owners ability to own them as property was 'legal' it was a 'divine right', it also converted African slaves from their native religions a lot quicker. ( assimilation )

I'll conclude by referring back to my original point

The bible is not a source of good morality. It orders men to commit evil and immoral crimes and that alone is proof of my claim. Furthermore, it has single handily been used to justify some of the worst actions in human history, including slavery right up until 150 years ago in the USA which the bible completely sanctions. A book that orders and allows people to rape, murder and torture is in no way a moral book.
Furthermore, you have been unable to successfully explain or even respond to why the bible is still needed when even the 'good' parts of the bible are already present in many societies. Clearly, morality is in no way depended on divine intervention, our current secular justice systems in certain nations around the world are proof of this. Humans enjoy today, the most freedoms and liberties than in any other point in human history. This has been accomplished in democratic, secular nations.

The bad cannot be justified by the good (especially when it far outweighs the good), nor do the ends justify the means. (especially when it costs the lives of innocent people) The bible is not a source of morality for all these reasons and so many more.

I challenge you to first attempt to counter these points in your response (not required to of course)

Hear from you soon,
Good luck
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
The bible ewwwwww its just a silly donkey translation which confuses every message of the Hebrew T'NaCH.
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Im_Intelligent
Bible a good source of morality? dont make me laugh, god as described in the bible is one of the most immoral characters in all of fiction, god breaks a number of his own rules as well as doing the very things he punishes us for doing, he is angry and vengeful in the old testament, and illogical from the old to the new testament, which makes no sense since god is supposedly never changing, the bible has simply hijacked morality for its own purposes like almost every other religion, because humanity just has to be special :)
Posted by ardidong 3 years ago
ardidong
The most immoral character in the Bible is God. He is an all powerful all seeing God; so when he created the universe and life therein; he knew exactly what he was creating, so why did he have to keep interfering?
Our morals come from a sense of well being; do unto others what you expect from them.
Going back to the beginning of life; the emotion of love was for the maternal and paternal protection. Hate was the emotion that protected the offspring from predators, Without the emotions of love and hate, life could not have survived. In the greater scheme of things, all emotions are positive. If hate is a positive emotion then Satan cannot exist; if Satan doesn't exist then neither can God.
Posted by Ryang5859 3 years ago
Ryang5859
hey guys, yeah I read over some of the argument you had with 'follower of Christ' Vivamexico, luckily he didn't accept the debate. hopefully 'mtcline6' is a reasonable guy as he so far seems to be.

missmedic, yes I agree completely when you said " Good morality should always be scrutinized.
Good morality should be progressive.The bible by it own admission, is both dogmatic and immutable."

I almost had to reference it in my response but thought I better not as it would be unfair and not my own point. But I agree completely.

backwardseden " You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them."
Is exactly my sentiment, maybe I should wait until the debate is over to reply to the comments, but you are right, people justify the evil acts in the bible because 'there are still good ones'. But what kind of person are you, and what kind of world do you want to live in when Christians are completely okay with mass murder, genocide, rape, torture etc. so long as God said its okay... That would be a very horrible place to live in my opinion, and it is the world Christians seem to believe in.
Pretty scary in my opinion, and is the reason I made this debate, to hopefully enlighten at least one Christian that the bible is not what it seems, and life is just as fulfilling and purposeful without it.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
The bible has a few hard to find moral guidelines, but for the most part it is just a book of rules or commandments (about 1600) and no where in the bible does god say you can follow the commandments you like and neglect the rest. So no it is not a good source (without your own moral filter) following the rules of the bible would make a person a murderer.
Good morality should always be scrutinized.
Good morality should be progressive.
The bible by it own admission, is both dogmatic and immutable.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Con has this debate well in hand...
Pro doesn't get...
"When you start making excuses for atrocities you have removed yourself from ANY valid discussion on morals. When you say "yes the bible says you can own slaves but" well now you"re contradicting yourself because before I was asking if you thought the bible was accurately representing the mind of god, the will of god. You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them. You"ve gone and looked at them and said "boy that one really sounds bad, BUT that"s what Israel was doing that"s not what god was doing. So let me ask you this" do you believe that there"s an all knowing all powerful fun loving god who has an important message for humanity and he is so completely inept that his best attempts at communicating to people managed to convey the exact opposite message of what you think he meant? Now like are you the one who got it right? And all the people who authored the holy book and got you started that they managed to get it wrong? Is your god such a bumbling buffoon that he cannot state "thou shalt not own somebody as another human being?" or "please don"t rape the people and pillage the villages around you"" and he managed to communicate so poorly that it got written down as "Thou shalt be able to own other people as property and oh by the way go over there and kill everybody kill everything except for the young virgins." Its asinine. You cannot reconcile this." Matt Dillahunty
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Yeah put a block on the sweaty piece of rear end wipe. He's even worse than his unproved terrorist god in which he cannot even prove even exists.
Posted by VivaMexico 3 years ago
VivaMexico
Yo if that dood FollowerOfChrist1955 accepts, just ignore him and make a new one. He's not worth arguing with case in point.

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