The Instigator
Youngastronomer
Con (against)
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The Contender
chokerboy12345
Pro (for)
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Islam is violent

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,400 times Debate No: 100298
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (24)
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Youngastronomer

Con

Islam is violent? I will argue this is false, it's quite a misinterpreted religion.
1) Acceptance
2) Rebuttals
3) Defense
chokerboy12345

Pro

First I would like to thank con for creating this debate.

I, myself, am a pro-violence kind of guy and I really admire Islam. It hates women, gays, Jews and infidels. Judaism and Christianity are also like that but unfortunately we aren't violent because of it.

Islamic scripture is extremely violent. Haven't you ever read the Qur'an con? It is the word of the Muslim god. Qur'an (8:12) has their god giving his angels the command to behead infidels. Verse 9:29 says Muslims must fight the non-believers until we willingly pay the jizya, which is a tax for infidels. If we fail to pay the tax, we must either convert to Islam or we will be killed.
Oh, another great non-violent fact about Islam is that if you leave it, the punishment is death. This rule was put in place by Muhammad (pbuh) himself.
Debate Round No. 1
Youngastronomer

Con

Islam isn't violent, rather it describes it's self defence because of the persecutions Muhammad and his followers has faced for months and forced to fight 1000 fully armed of THEIR OWN RELATIVES.

Their own relatives persecuted the Muslims so much that they moved to Abbyssinia/Ethiopia.

Then they migrated to Madina and were helped out by the Ansaar (Helpers). About "Torturing" the Jews and all that. The Jews broke a treaty/deal twice and attempted to kill the prophet and were punished after their 2nd chance. On the first chance they were forgiven and was given another treaty. The Jews took advantage of this and broke the treaty again, then captured and exiled. Anyone who attempts to kill a leader should be punished, right?
No?
Let's all kill Trump because we don't agree with him, nah that's not the way. The Jews got what was coming to them.

About gays, yes gays are disliked but are not ordered to be punished.

Women? Have you read Surah Nisa? Also women and men are equally punished for the same crime they did. Women are not oppressed, women were given respect and were taken away from being treated like dogs from the Quraish tribe.

If women are so oppressed? Why do more women go to Islam than men? I don't think a women would like to be a slave or a doormat.
chokerboy12345

Pro

I agree with you I think all Jews should be killed. They deserve it. But that doesn't change the fact that it is violent to kill them. Muhammad (pbuh) came to the Jewish city of Medina as a refugee, and then he killed, enslaved or drove away all the Jews living there. A peaceful man would not have done that. Compare Muhammad to Jesus. He gets captured after he is betrayed, Peter attacks the soldiers and Jesus tells Peter to stop.

Muhammad would have killed you if you insulted his god or himself (Sahih Muslim 1801).

This is what the Qur'an says about infidels: Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in hellfire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)

Muhammad (pbuh) said multiple times that he must fight the infidels until everyone is Muslim.

You said gays are not to be punished. That is a lie.
Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone"
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.". People of Loot refers to homosexual acts done in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."
Sahih Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."
al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Women convert to Islam because women are lesser beings. They have no reason, they have no logic, they are animals. Most of the ones who convert to Islam do not read about it, they are stupid white women who decide they want to do something different. Kind of like the ones who convert to Buddhism.

As for your argument that women are not oppressed, yes they are.
Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females"
Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."
Quran (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels can not be female in Islam.
Sahih Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"
Sahih Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the donkeys'" FYI Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and took her virginity when she was 9.
Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, a donkey, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."
Al-Tirmidhi 3272 - "When Allah's Messenger was asked which woman was best he replied, 'The one who pleases (her husband) when he looks at her, obeys him when he gives a command, and does not go against his wishes regarding her person or property by doing anything of which he disapproves'."
Tabari Vol 9, Number 1754 - "Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves."
Debate Round No. 2
Youngastronomer

Con

You're still misinterpreting the verses that have been given. The prophet was at war with his own relatives who tried to kill him for years and finally he reacted

Source below for what the verses really mean
https://discover-the-truth.com...

The prophet did not hate the Jews, the Jews hated him and took it too far and broke the peace treaty/agreement to not fight each other and share the city, so then they received a punishment, seriously?

Death penalty for apostasy? Nope, that's false too.
http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com...

Background: Some think that once you are a "muslim" if you decide to change your beliefs you are considered an apostate, an act punishable by death!

The Quran clearly states there are those who believe then disbelieve, then believe again, then disbelieve again. This proves death for apostasy simply did not exist, because if it did, it would be impossible to believe again after unbelief, as they would have been put to death after the first unbelief:

Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path. [4:137]

This is further proven by the following verse:

How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people. [3:86]

The Quran states, in no uncertain terms, that there is no compulsion in religion:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most sure hand-hold, that never breaks. And God is Hearing, Knowing. [2:256]

The Quran states that God could have made all those on earth believe, thus asks who is man to enforce such a thing if God did not:

And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? [10:99]

The Quran states there were those who believed part of the time, then disbelieved part of the time in order to confuse and sow discord amongst the believers of the time. If death for apostasy existed, no sane minded person would attempt to do this as they would be killed the very first time they tried it:

A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) Turn back. [3:72]

Please also see the clear example set out in 4:88-91, in which the believers are told to offer peace with those who became hypocrites/apostates (i.e. were Muslim in name only but did not follow through with action during hostilities/fighting in this case) if they also offer peace.

To conclude, it is clear that 'death for apostasy' does not exist in The Quran. People are free to believe and live their lives accordingly or not. If a community or system or any structure deprives its members of this basic freedom, it will produce hypocrites and suppressed people who have no strength of belief or goals to work for and will likely result in a weak system or community. Freedom of belief is the air that healthy and just communities breathe.

So yes, all these misconceptions about Islam are entirely false.
chokerboy12345

Pro

30391 terror attacks committed in the name of Islam since 9/11.

Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or for criticizing his religion. This included women. http://www.answering-islam.org...

Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad (33:21).

Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.
Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.
(48:19), Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3432, (56:15), Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390, Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 74, Number 278, Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137.

After Muhammad died, the people who lived with him and knew his religion best immediately fell into war with each other.

Fatima, Muhammad's favorite daughter, survived the early years among the unbelievers at Mecca safe and sound, yet died of stress from the persecution of fellow Muslims only six months after her father died. She even miscarried Muhammad's grandchild after having her ribs broken by the man who became the second caliph.

It was the same caliph, Umar, who ordered the death of the first convert to Islam at Medina, an elderly leader who became a close companion to Muhammad and proved his worth in battle. Sa'd ibn Ubadah was killed after a failed bid to be caliph.

Fatima's husband Ali, who was the second convert to Islam and was raised like a son to Muhammad, fought a civil war against an army raised by Aisha, Muhammad's favorite wife - and one whom he had said was a "perfect woman." 10,000 Muslims were killed in a single battle waged less than 25 years after Muhammad's death.

Three of the first four Muslim rulers (caliphs) were murdered. All of them were among Muhammad's closest companions. The third caliph was killed by allies of the son of the first (who was murdered by the fifth caliph a few years later, then wrapped in the skin of a dead donkey and burned). The fourth caliph (Ali) was stabbed to death after a bitter dispute with the fifth. The fifth caliph went on to poison one of Muhammad's two favorite grandsons. The other grandson was later beheaded by the sixth caliph.

The infighting and power struggles between Muhammad's family members, closest companions and their children only intensified with time. Within 50 short years of Muhammad's death, even the Kaaba, which had stood for centuries under pagan religion, lay in ruins from internal Muslim war...

Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. Within the first few decades following his death, his Arabian companions invaded and conquered Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and Zoroastrian lands. A mere 25 years after Muhammad's death, Muslim armies had captured land and people within the borders of over 28 modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia.

Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.
None of these other religions are at war with each other.

People who leave the faith ARE to be killed.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

http://thereligionofpeace.com...
Debate Round No. 3
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 11 through 20 records.
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
The image of the typical Muslim woman wearing the veil and forced to stay home and forbidden to drive is all too common in most peoples thoughts. Although some Muslim countries may have laws that oppress women, this should not be seen as coming from Islam. Many of these countries do not rule by any kind of Shari'ah (Islamic law) and introduce their own cultural standpoints on the issue of gender equity.

Islam on the other hand gives men and women different roles and equity between the two is laid down in the Quran and the example of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Islam sees a woman, whether single or married, as an individual in her own right, with the right to own and dispose of her property and earnings. A marriage gift is given by the groom to the bride for her own personal use, and she keeps her own family name rather than taking her husband's. Both men and women are expected to dress in a way that is modest and dignified. The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."

Violence of any kind towards women and forcing them against their will for anything is not allowed. A Muslim marriage is a simple, legal agreement in which either partner is free to include conditions. Marriage customs thus vary widely from country to country. Divorce is not common, although it is acceptable as a last resort. According to Islam, a Muslim girl cannot be forced to marry against her will: her parents simply suggest young men they think may be suitable.
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
My opponent says women are clueless and have no logic, that's hardly true because the average girl is extremely smart although lads are smarter in general. Women are not that dumb to the point where they convert to "A terrorizing and horrific religion which hates women, gays and infidels."
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
Whoops I keep forgetting to reply to some of his arguments, sorry about that so I'll complete it here.

Women misconception
This widely held misconception does not remotely follow from the reasons given. The first and most important observation to make about the popular question "Are men and women equal?" is that it is a badly-formed, unanswerable question. The problem which many people conveniently ignore is that "equal" is not defined. This is a very critical point: the equality must be specified with respect to some measurable property. For example, women on average are superior to men if we ask who is shorter in height than the other ("Growth and Development", Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1992). Women are also superior on average if we ask whom do children bond to deeper, mothers or fathers. Women are also superior on average if we ask who has a tendency to socialize more. On the other hand, men are superior on average if we ask who is taller in height than the other. And so on: every question can be turned around, and more importantly these are properties which are irrelevant.

What then, is the really important property which we are worried about in terms of gender equality? Naturally, from the point of view of the Qur'an and Sunnah, the obvious important property is who is dearer to Allah, men or women? This question is emphatically answered in the Qur'an (translation),

If any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least injustice will be done to them.[4:124]
Posted by Vinnie_Cross_Briet 3 years ago
Vinnie_Cross_Briet
This debate is both interesting and scary...
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
People never seem to realise WHEN the verse was revealed, all these "terror/violent" verses were said before or during a battle, you kill someone during war, oh wait do you not?
Posted by junaid_jan 3 years ago
junaid_jan
Verse 8:12 talks about a specific incident, but of course islamophobes always leave the context out. It is about the battle of Badr in which the angels are commanded by Allah to cast terror into the disbelievers by fighting them.
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
Christianity and Judaism are more violent than Islam
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
Forgot to answer where he said that the punishment for leaving is death, nope it's not. There is no punishment for leaving. You can leave and come back as much as you wish.
Posted by Youngastronomer 3 years ago
Youngastronomer
You misinterpreted the Quran quite well, all the verses you say that say "Kill them" or "Take them out" was always followed by "Do not transgress" or something like that.

They were persecuted for months and starved. Then finally Allah gave them permission to fight.

Peaceful =/= Pacifist
Posted by Logiq 3 years ago
Logiq
Seems to be an interesting debate.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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