It's Irrational to Believe Evolution and Creationism Simultaneously

impossible? Then its possible that evolution's standards are wrong. We are flawed beings after all! Whos to say that things weren't made in thousands of years instead of billions?

@PointProven - The Bible clearly states God created ALL life in 7 days. This is impossible by evolutionary standards where things developed chronologically over billions of years. Therefore, That argument fails.

they aren't necessarily conflicting beliefs, Seeing as one could just say "god created and guided evolution"

its irrational to believe in creationism, Therefore believing in both evolution and creationism simultaneously is also irrational.

@athias - I've already cited where you made the claims, Go back and reread our conversation. It started right after you first started commenting and I called you out on orthogenesis. You know exactly what you said, Don't play games with me. I know for a fact you're an intelligent person, So I know you understand perfectly well what I am referring to. Anyone reading these comments will easily understand as well. You backed yourself into a corner and you're too proud to admit defeat so your only remaining tactic is deflection and dodging. Whether you verbally conceded or not, The conceding is obvious enough to the reader, And I have nothing further to prove here. If you had a point to make, You'd have made it; instead you refuse to answer the question and continue to play word games. If you want to debate the subject formally, I told you I would. I assume you do not since you cannot even debate it informally - but the offer is there nonetheless.

PS - once again - yes I am aware of what orthogenesis is, But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with it being PART of evolution. I am aware of abiogensis, Creationism, Quantum entanglement, Artificial intelligence and many other things, Too; none of them are relevant to evolution. When I said I was aware of it, It's only because I have argued against it before and I was aware of the argument - that's it. It is not a component of mainstream evolution. Period.

@killshot: So does this mean that you couldn't cite my exact words? (And now you're just appealing to motive. ) Discontinue if you so please. But I've conceded nothing. You've done nothing but straw man arguments, Inferred non sequiturs, And deny your burden of proof. (Once again, Regardless of an argument's being positive or negative, The affirmation must be substantiated. ) You argued that evolution has no goal; you've provided no substance to this. You argued that consensus informs the veracity of your statement; this is textbook consensus fallacy. You state that you're aware of orthogenesis, Yet insist that it's not a part of Evolution (you would then later revise this to state that it isn't part of the "consensus" despite no mention on my part of consensus. ) When I stated to you that I had no intention of either arguing semantics, Or subjecting the discussion to arguments from consensus, You continued to argue semantics, And subject the discussion to arguments from consensus. So who's the one being disingenuous in their "tactics"?

I'm finished with this as well. I'm not interesting in feelings and impressions. I'm interested in only arguments. When you can formulate one and adequately inform it, I'll resume participation in this discussion. Until then, Good luck in your future debates.

@athias - I'm not wasting my time any further on this. It's clear in your actions and tactics that you know you're wrong and you're conceding, Even if you refuse to admit it directly. You entered my debate's comments and attacked my position. My position was clearly articulated and it was obvious what I was referring to. You then tried to ninja in orthogenesis to derail my debate into your own word salad where you could then argue your point on a different version of evolution - one where your argument works. I saw it and called you out. Since then you have done nothing but squirm and refuse to provide any evidence to support your position, Despite me asking several times for you to do so. You continually deflect back to me, Trying to escape the spotlight and keep me in a defending position. These disingenuous tactics might work on other people, But I've seen how you operate and it's not working on me. YOU made the claim, YOU need to support it.

It's clear that you are conceding that orthogenesis is not part of mainstream evolutionary theory, Because it's obviously not and you're wrong. I'm tired of going back and forth wasting time while you dodge and continue to refuse to provide evidence to support your claim.

If you disagree and you wish to move this into a formal debate, I'm happy to do so. That being said, I'll be watching for word play and disingenuous tactics.

"When you said you took a staple concept in evolution, You were referring to orthogenesis. This is what I called you out on originally, And it's what all of this is centered around. You provided me a link to evolution, And I said I cannot find orthogenesis on that page anywhere, Etc etc. Context matters. "

This is disingenuous. You asked for a "working definition" of Evolution. When I told you that any would suffice, You insisted that one be provided. When I provided one, You asked "Can you provide a definition using orthogenesis? " After that, I told you that I suspected you of instigating a debate over semantics, And I had no intention in taking part. Context matters; semantics in this case, Does not.

"I'll make this very very simple.

"There is a scientific model for evolution. "

Not just one. And where in my arguments did I restrict the description of "Evolution" to just scientific models? Cite my exact words.

"It's the only consensus supported evolutionary model in science. "

This means nothing more than stating that there's a consensus.

"I am not using it to prove evolution is true, Or the components of evolution are true. "

it's not that you're "not using it to prove"; you can't.

" I am saying that model does not contain orthogenesis. You are saying it not only does"

Cite my exact statement when I made description of a model you referenced? You're strawmanning arguments.

"Does the standard evolutionary model contain orthogenesis or not? Yes or no. "

Non sequitur. You have now shifted this argument to one where it's a referendum on an argument following consensus. As I told you, I refuse to subject this discussion to arguments from consensus, Which you veil with a reference to a "standard model. " You have neither informed this consensus, Nor have explained its significance in the description of Evolution.

@killshot: "I'm not revising anything, "

As I've told you, I don't buy it. Revise whatever you want.

"If orthogenesis is not part of evolution, Then the statement "Orthogenesis AND natural selection is not evolution"

Yes, The abstract inductive logic of the statement would be true. But you were not arguing inductively; You declared that orthogenesis isn't apart of evolution. That's factually incorrect.

"There is only one mainstream evolutionary model that is supported by the scientific consensus. "

You have not informed this at all. You speak to consensus as if it grants validity to your statements. The only thing your citing consensus informs is consensus. Where in my statements did I ever mention consensus? Cite to me my exact statements.

"If you don't know what it is, You probably shouldn't be debating it. "

Consensus informs nothing other than consensus.

"That would work in a debate where we were actually debating what evolution is and how it works. "

No, That is not a restriction of the consensus fallacy. The consensus fallacy is informed when one attempts to qualify the veracity of an argument using consensus for information. So when you state this, "The scientific consensus agrees with me that evolution has no goal" you are committing a consensus fallacy to the very letter. Now, If you're stating that this agreement just exists, Then it contributes absolutely nothing more than its mere statement. What significance would it then bear in the description of Evolution?

"This debate however, Is whether my version of evolution contains orthogenesis and goals;"

You don't have a "version" of Evolution. We are not arguing your interpretation. Cite to me my exact words where I argued that "your version" of Evolution contained orthogenesis and goals.

@athias -

You said "And your standard scientific consensus supported model is informed thus far only by a consensus fallacy. "

I'll make this very very simple.

There is a scientific model for evolution. It's the only consensus supported evolutionary model in science. I am not using it to prove evolution is true, Or the components of evolution are true. I am saying that model does not contain orthogenesis. You are saying it not only does, But its a staple concept of it. Please support that or concede. It's really that simple.

Does the standard evolutionary model contain orthogenesis or not? Yes or no.