The Instigator
jrardin12
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
omar2345
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Jesus is God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/23/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 119131
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

jrardin12

Pro

Con starts with reasons why He is not.
omar2345

Con

First prove there is a God.

Then prove that God is Jesus.

I am not going to start because the burden of proof is on your end since you did make the claim. Even if you past the round to me you are still Pro Jesus is God.
Debate Round No. 1
jrardin12

Pro

Well if Jesus was God, Then that is proof enough for God's existance because everyone knows that Jesus was a historical person, Unless you are backswarden, Of course.
But, To indulge you I will try briefly to deal with God's existance. The Christian apologist, Of course, Does not make his case simply by demonstrating that God is a theistic God. He must also present evidence that this theistic God is the Christian God. While I don't want to make light of the importance of these proofs for God's existence of a theistic God, I doubt that abstract proofs for God's existence are going to lead many to the faith, Or even if they do, That I am the person to make that case persuasively. I can't imagine many people reasoning their way into believing in God's existance if they are predisposed against believing, Because I don't believethese skeptical predispositionso are primarily grounded in reason. I am not saying the predispositions are necessarily irrational, Only that they are ultimately based on something other than reason.
Some argue that while proofs are rationally sound and even persuasive, The most you can expect from them is to show that there is nothing irrational about accepting the arguments. Even most thinkers who advance these arguments don't claim they constitute absolute proof for God's existance. As Dr. Geiger and Frank Turnkey explain, "As limited human beings, We do not possess the type of knowledge that will provide us with absolute proof of God's existence or nonexistence. Outside of the knowledge of our own existence (I know I exist because I have to exist in order to ponder the question), We deal in the realm of probability. Whatever we've concluded about the existence of God, It's always possible that the opposite is true. " Yet I believe, Along with Geisler and Turek, That the evidence demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that God does exist. Which I will explain when I get to Jesus.
Though there are other proofs, Such as the ontological argument, I will focus on three of them: the cosmological, Teleological, And moral arguments.

The cosmological argument is a law involving causation. Briefly stated it is:
1. Everything that begins had a cause.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Therefore, The universe had a cause.
This invites a question: If God was the "first cause" of the universe, Who "caused" God? Let's examine that.
The first premise is considered self-evident because something cannot come from nothing. Put differently, Being cannot come from nothing. Even a ten-year-old knows that, Right? We personally observe that everything in the physical universe was caused by something, E. G. A tree depends on seed from another tree, As well as water, Minerals, And sunshine.
The second premise is now supported on scientific and philosophical grounds. Most scientists accept the Big Bang theory, Which tells us that the universe had a beginning. (Many Christians, Incidentally, Believe in the scientific evidence for the Big Bang, Which is consistent with the biblical account of creation, But reject the naturalistic speculations about how the bang occurred. ) Additionally, The Second Law of Thermodynamics informs us that the universe has a finite amount of energy and it is decreasing. Entropy is moving the universe toward a state of maximum disorder and minimum energy, Which means it cannot be eternal. Because maximum entropy has not yet been realized, The universe could not have been here forever. Moreover, The universe is expanding, Which means it had a beginning point when nothing existed. But again, Nothing cannot produce something.
Dr. Norman Geisler sets out the philosophical basis for the second premise (the universe had a beginning):
1. An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.
2. As such, Today could never have arrived if there were an infinite number of moments preceding today.
3. Today has in fact come.
4. Thus, There could only have been a infinite number of moments prior to today, Which means time had a beginning. Because everything with a beginning must have been caused, The temporal world had a Beginner.
Stated another way, Unless a first cause (God) exists, The universe would have to be eternal because there would be an infinite series of causes and events that would never lead to a first cause or starting point. As evidence from science and philosophy demonstrate that the universe is not eternal, However, It is impossible that an infinite series of causes and effects preceded it. It had to have begun at some point in time. And because no contingent being can create itself, The first cause must have been uncaused or self-existent and must transcend the material universe. To explain the existence of a contingent, Temporally finite universe, There has to be a non-contingent being who is wholly independent of the physical universe and who created it. As one writer put it, "If God needed a cause then God is not God. "

The teleological argument is based on the order and design we observe in nature. These cannot possibly have resulted from random processes and chance-an intelligent designer (Being) had to have caused them. The teleological argument maintains:
1. Every design had a designer.
2. The universe has a highly complex design.
3. Therefore, The universe had a Designer.
There is abundant and various evidence of this argument involving things we've learned from astronomy and biology, Which we can talk about in another debate.

The moral argument (the moral law) states:
1. Every law has a lawgiver.
2. There is a moral lae.
3. Therefore, There is a moral lawgiver.
The first premise is self-evident: every law must have a lawgiver or it wouldn't be a law. The second premise assumes our experience teaches us that all people have a fundamental sense of right and wrong that corresponds to an objective moral standard beyond humanity. If there is a moral law, There surely must be a moral lawgiver. A prominent group of atheist intellectuals known as the "new atheists" strongly disputes that the existence of moral law necessarily implies a moral lawgiver. They seem to believe that morals somehow bootstrapped their way into possessing moral consciences. While people can certainly invent their own moral codes, Unless there is an objective standard beyond humanity, Then everything is just a matter of human opinion. Without God, There's no way to justify that Hitler was evil, Or that the behavior of Mother Teresa was better than Hitler's.
One of the chief stumbling blocks to faith is the existence of evil and suffering in the world. Why would an all-powerful, All-loving God permit that? We can discuss that in another debate also, But for now note that this reason for doubt can be turned on itself. Human beings would arguably have no concept of evil, Especially in any kind of universal sense, Unless a moral standard exists apart from us-that is uncreated by us. "[As an atheist] my argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust, " writes C. S. Lewis, Who was an atheist before transforming into one of Christianity's most effective apologists. "But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? "
Without a moral absolute that is independent of human consciousness, There would be no point of reference and no basis for determining right or wrong. All moral standards, If they existed at all, Would be relative, And there would be no authority behind our moral judgements. But anthropological and sociological research shows there is a universal standard of behavior and people that transcends cultures and races. There is a universal recognition of evil and an intrinsic sense of right and wrong. This is not to say there are no variations and moral codes among peoples. The basics, However, Are often quite similar.

Now I will try to fit what I can about Jesus being God.

To understand the context, We must begin with the Old Testament account of God selecting Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt and into the Promised Land. Moses tells God he is an adequate to the task, Asking, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt? " (Exodus 3:11). After more objections, Moses asks God what he should say about God's identity if his people should challenge him.
From a human perspective, We might consider Moses' hesitation to assume such a formidable task a humble reaction. But from God's perspective, It could be just the opposite, Because God is the one Who told him to do it. If God is directing Moses to do something-anything-who is Moses to challenge Him, Even if the challenge concerns Moses' own abilities? Omniscient Jehovah obviously knows Moses is up to the job or He wouldn't have tasked him with it. But something more significant is about to play out in this narrative. It's interesting that when Moses first demurely he asks God, "Who am I? " God essentially reverses this language after Moses asks Him how to respond if the Israelites ask who God is. God replies-in Hebrew-"Yahweh, " which is translated, "I Am Who I Am. " God says, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'The Lord, The God of your fathers, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, And the God of Jacob, Has sent me to you. ' Thus is my name forever, And thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations" (Exodus 3:14-15)
God is making clear that His name-"I Am Who I Am"-is synonymous with "The Lord, The God of your fathers, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, And the God of Jacob, " and by these names He shall be known forever. God isn't just selecting an arbitrary name for Himself. Reflect for a moment on the profundity of His self-identification: I Am Who I Am. How better to describe the indescribable? God is saying He is pure essence. Who but God could devise such a name?

I will have to continue in the next round.
omar2345

Con

Thank you for indulging me. This would be a rather dull debate if you did not accept what I asked of you.

1. Everything that begins had a cause.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Therefore, The universe had a cause.
This invites a question
Yes it does invite the question but it does not answer it. This does not prove the existence of God just something caused something. Stating the cause of everything is God would require outstanding evidence since it is an outstanding claim. This would be begging the question. I think you already know that but you still claim that somehow God exists. A cause is not the same as God. I did read everything afterwards but I think what I said here would answer the main point of this argument.

1. An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.
2. As such, Today could never have arrived if there were an infinite number of moments preceding today.
3. Today has in fact come.
4. Thus, There could only have been a infinite number of moments prior to today, Which means time had a beginning. Because everything with a beginning must have been caused, The temporal world had a Beginner.
Time had a beginning still does not point to a God. Must have been caused is also a claim with no evidence. Can you prove God caused it? I don't think so if you get God from beginning.

Stated another way, Unless a first cause (God) exists, The universe would have to be eternal because there would be an infinite series of causes and events that would never lead to a first cause or starting point.
I don't see how you got to that. Evolution does explain the diversification of life and a God is not required to start this reality since Evolution happens without as far as we know someone watching over it to if everything works out.

And because no contingent being can create itself, The first cause must have been uncaused or self-existent and must transcend the material universe.
That is different from the point you made earlier. Everything that begins had a cause This does not apply to God is that what you are saying? I don't see the evidence for it to be so.

To explain the existence of a contingent, Temporally finite universe, There has to be a non-contingent being who is wholly independent of the physical universe and who created it. As one writer put it, "If God needed a cause then God is not God. "
Has to be non-contingent is an assumption until you can prove it. God can still God to us but he can also have a God. It can be the creator of this universe but another God can be the creator of all universes. Mine is also an assumption but the writer you mention does not know what a God is. God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. He can be a supreme being to us but God to us can also have another supreme being above him.

These cannot possibly have resulted from random processes and chance-an intelligent designer (Being) had to have caused them.
You didn't say impossible. Which I think I know why. You cannot prove it to be the case instead you latch on the best idea you have. Why not go with I don't know until you do know. If this is the evidence I had for God's existence I wouldn't believe it existed because these are all stretches instead of a straight line to God. Correlation is not causation.

1. Every design had a designer.
2. The universe has a highly complex design.
3. Therefore, The universe had a Designer.
There is abundant and various evidence of this argument involving things we've learned from astronomy and biology, Which we can talk about in another debate.
Depends on what you mean by designer. I'll go by this: a person who plans the look or workings of something prior to it being made, By preparing drawings or plans. We still have not found who designed evolution have we? If that assumption that every designer had a designer was clear to us then who created evolution and can you prove it? Complex design does not mean it is impossible for us to end up like how we are now. We can talk about in other debates but for first question you have not proven God's existence since I have found flaws in your reasoning. I think some religious folk use an argument that God is illogical. If you used the same argument then I would say to that is then why are defending his existence with logic? Assumption until you say otherwise and then it is right or wrong.

The moral argument (the moral law) states:
1. Every law has a lawgiver.
2. There is a moral lae.
3. Therefore, There is a moral lawgiver.
How about the laws of Math? Wasn't it here before us? Who made that law? This does not prove God's existence because I have already pointed out a flaw in your absolute statement in premise 1. Premise 2 I am assuming you said There is moral law and in the third premise you said There is a moral lawgiver. I would say to that is that the moral lawgivers are us. Laws are found by us. There can be there without us but when we found them we are the lawgivers in a sense. Morality is subjective to if you also believe in free will or that humans are different. If God made moral laws why are they perceived differently from different individuals? Some believe Christianity and some believe Judaism.

Unless there is an objective standard beyond humanity, Then everything is just a matter of human opinion.
Facts and universal laws are not an opinions or maths.

Without God, There's no way to justify that Hitler was evil, Or that the behavior of Mother Teresa was better than Hitler's
You lost me on that one. God is not needed for me to think, Make choices and decide. If he was we do not have free will. If we do can I choose not to have God not thinking, Making choices and deciding morally for me or whatever it maybe. Yeah Hitler was evil but what about to white supremacists? No morality is subjective. People are different.

Human beings would arguably have no concept of evil, Especially in any kind of universal sense, Unless a moral standard exists apart from us-that is uncreated by us.
A moral standard can exists without it being objective.

Without a moral absolute that is independent of human consciousness, There would be no point of reference and no basis for determining right or wrong. All moral standards, If they existed at all, Would be relative, And there would be no authority behind our moral judgements.
Yes to this. Morality is relative to the person, Environment and genetics. The authority behind the moral judgements is the government. If you murder you go to jail doesn't matter if you think murder is a good thing you are still going to jail. Right or wrong is what you make of it. I can say believing in Christianity is wrong. You would say believing in Christianity is right. Moral absolute does not exist since everyone does not think alike which is a good thing.

But anthropological and sociological research shows there is a universal standard of behavior and people that transcends cultures and races.
This is an appeal to authority until you show me your sources.

There is a universal recognition of evil and an intrinsic sense of right and wrong.
Ask Richard Spencer if determining a person based on race is right.

This is not to say there are no variations and moral codes among peoples. The basics, However, Are often quite similar.
Variation does make it subjective. The basic of what Richard Spencer believes is that race is a good factor to judge a person on.

Now I will try to fit what I can about Jesus being God.
Sorry about that if you want to drop the God argument in the next Round please do. But I would like a debate on this topic. If you do decide to make I will copy my rebuttal's and you can copy your arguments for Round 1 then we can rebuttal in the other rounds.

Omniscient Jehovah
I don't agree with the assertion. To me a Jehovah's witnesses cannot be everywhere and as far as I know in the present they do not have the same power.

"I Am Who I Am"
I don't get it. If someone came up to the street and said they are God and then I said how and they said I am who I am I think they are crazy. Doesn't matter if Moses was saying it, Extra-ordinary claim requires extra-ordinary evidence.

God is saying He is pure essence
Essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, Especially something abstract, Which determines its character.
Are you saying in some way everyone is God or they are apart of him? If so can you prove it I think you can't. If you point to consciousness then I require evidence.

You haven't given me a reason to say why Jesus is God. I await one in the next round.


Debate Round No. 2
jrardin12

Pro

I would love to debate more on God in another round, But this is going in that direction anyway by saying Jesus is God.

God is making clear that His name-"I Am Who I Am"-is synonymous with "The Lord, The God of your fathers, The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, And the God of Jacob, " and by these names He shall be known forever. God isn't just selecting an arbitrary name for Himself. Reflect for a moment on the profundity of His self-identification: I Am Who I Am. How better to describe the indescribable? God is saying He is pure essence. Who but God could devise such a name? The words signify God`s dynamic, Active, And eternal self-existence. Nelson`s Illustrated Bible Dictionary explains this divine appellation:

His "I am" expresses the fact that He is the infinite and original personal God who is behind everything and to whom everything and to whom everything must finally be traced. "I am who I am", Signals the truth that nothing else defines who God is but God Himself. What He says and does is who He is. The inspired Scriptures are the infallible guide to understanding who God is by what He says about Himself and what He does. Yahweh is the all-powerful and sovereign God who alone defines Himself and establishes truth for His creatures and works for their salvation.

As T. F. Torrance writes, "The very nature of God excludes the possibility of there being any other God beside himself. This is already evident in the unique self-naming of God to his covenant people Israel as 'I am who I am, ' which also carries with it the sense of 'I will be who I will be, ' for he is the ever-living completely self-sufficient and wholly self-grounded God in all that he is and does. "

Significantly, Jesus uses a similar self-appellation. When the Pharisees challenge Him for essentially claiming to be a deity, He replies, "I tell you the truth, Before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58). . This bold statement is ignored by the hard-nosed skeptics who deny that Jesus claimed to be God. They also overlook the violent reaction to Jesus' deity and try to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59). Note that Jesus' answer contains a pun of sorts: He not only identifies Himself as Yahweh (I AM-the short form of I Am Who I Am), But also asserts that He was before the patriarch Abraham, Who had lived and died more than two thousand years before.
Jesus didn't say, "Before Abraham was born, I was. " That also would have been true, But it wouldn't have told the entire story. By saying, "Before Abraham was born, I AM, " Jesus is identifying Himself as Yahweh and asserting His existence from eternity past-way before Abraham and creation. If Jesus had said, "I was, " it could have implied there was a time when He did't exist. By using the present tense "I AM, " however, He forecloses that inference. I AM, Or Yahweh, Is equivalent to saying, "I have always been and always will be. " "This is, " says John Piper, "the essential meaning of his Old Testament name Yahweh (or Jehovah). It is built on the verb 'to be. '. . . To be 'I am' is to be absolutely the first and the last. No 'before' and no 'after. ' Simply 'I am. '

Chris's personal claims to deity are essential to Christianity. Some skeptics, However, Deny His divinity even as they praise Christ as the greatest man who ever lived or as an extraordinary prophet who laid down the world's best moral teachings. Benjamin Franklin even allowed as much, While admitting strong doubts about Christ's deity. Since becoming a Christian, One of my pet peeves has been the casual negligence with which people gloss over such a critical matter-as if it makes little difference, When in reality it makes all the difference.
Because Jesus asserted that He is God, We can't logically contend that He was the greatest examplar of moral behavior in history without acknowledging that He is God. C. S. Lewis explains why this is so in a formulation now known as the "Trilemma": in short, Jesus is either the Lord, A Liar, Or a Lunatic. Lewis writes.

I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, But I do't accept His claim to be God. " That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-oe else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, And is, The Son of God: orelse a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, You can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.

Many writers end that quote "the Devil of Hell, " but I think the remaining lines resoundingly punctuate the argument. John Piper nicely sums up the importance of Jesus' "I AM" affirmations: "Nothing greater can any man say of himself. It is true, Or it is blasphemy. Christ was God or godless. "
Jesus makes many other "I AM" statements in which He either directly asserts His deity, Does so metaphorically, Or describes His attributes or activities that derive from His divinity. Lest there be any remaining doubt that He was claiming to be One with Jehovah, Jesus exclaims, "Have courage, I am He! Do not be afraid! " (Matt. 14:27;Mark 6:50; John 6:20); "I am, And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:62); "I, The one speaking to you, Am he" (John 4:26); "I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, But will have the light of life" (John 8:12); "I am the one who testifies concerning myself, And the Father who sent me testifies concerning me" (John 8:18); "You are of this world;I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins" (John 8:24). "Truly, Truly I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep" (John 10:7, 9); "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep" (John 10:11, 14); "I am the the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25); "From now on I am telling you before it happens, In order that when it happens you may believe that I am he" (John 13:19); "I am the way, And the truth, And the life" (John 14:6); "I am the true vine" (John 15:1, 5).
Hopefully that clears things up. But I have more if it doesn't.
omar2345

Con

Who but God could devise such a name?
A word has no meaning until you give it one. No name is inherently good only subject to the society we live in. If It says Its name was Dog. You would be saying the exact same thing. God would be a Dog and nothing would be different.

I tell you the truth, Before Abraham was born, I AM
So it is basically a belief then? What if I said that. Would you believe that I am God? I don't think so. This not proof it is the case. If it was then I am able to breathe in space.

reaction to Jesus' deity and try to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59)
How else would they react when disregarding their Gods? Jesus could've shown more proof of his power. Maybe a card trick. With that most of the people would drop their beliefs and join Jesus because I never heard of a great magician in Jesus's time.

But also asserts that He was before the patriarch Abraham, Who had lived and died more than two thousand years before.
You are looking to deep into it.

Before Abraham was born, I AM
This is in the present. If he said I was then he would talking in the past. Am does not mean he transcends time because how do quantify into words? Am? I don't think so.

Jesus is either the Lord, A Liar, Or a Lunatic
Or just can be a great guy who was mis-informed on how to say humans.

The Bible quotes in the end did not help me understand how Jesus is God. If biblical evidence is used at least show me something that specifically says Jesus is God if not something close. I am applies to the present not past present future.

Can you clear up am? I do not how you got Jesus is God from the quotes you have given.

My arguments:

Jesus is not the God because he died. God as far as I know cannot die and is a supreme being.

Jesus is also not God due to the mistakes he has made. Lets say Jesus died on the cross for our sins. We are still sinning so he has not stopped out since only I guess removed the one in his era. In the present people are sinning and the only thing Jesus did was give sinners a free pass. That did not solve the problem of sinning if people still sin.

Jesus is also not God because if he was why didn't he write the Bible? To me if I was God and I was a human at some point I would write a book and do a card trick to get people believing in me if I was in the same era as Jesus. His ideas did not help and he made mistakes. Dying on the cross on gave humans more time to make mistakes not spread the word of Christ. If it was everyone would be a Christian by now if the dying on the cross was enough reason for anyone to join Christianity. If he did not do it for that reason why did he do it?

I can go on more but I think this is enough.

Debate Round No. 3
jrardin12

Pro

You forgot that IAM means Jehovah in Hebrew. You acknowledge that the Jews had a good reason to kill Jesus fo saying He was God and then deny He called Himself God. How does that work.

Second Jesus did more than card tricks, He actually rose from the dead and performed many miracles. I will get to that.

I addition to Christs I Am staetments, He otherwise proclaims His deity and asserts divine prerogatives. On numerous occasions. He claims to be one with the Father. He asserts the authority to answer prayer. He demonstrates His authority to forgive sin. He adopts titles used for God in the Old Testament such as I am the light of the world and I am the good shepherd. He considers Himself worthy to receive honor due to God only. He promises to provide spiritual comfort that only God could provide. He and others assert His authority to judge mankind He refers to Himself as Lord. He proclaims authority over our personal salvation. . Finally, In the Book of Revelation, John qoutes Christ, From his vision, Making a clear claim to divinity Behold, I am coming soon. . . I am the Alpha and Omega, The first and the last the beginning and the end. . . . I, Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.
Christ undeniably spoke with authority like no one before or since. He didnt simply say, Follow my teachings, But Follow me. He boldly exclaimed, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
The learned Christian writer G. Campbell Morgan expounded on this point in 1913,

I propose to examine the claims which Christ made as to His own teaching. I take up the writings of other men, All of them valuable in greater or less degree, And it is always interesting to notice a mans estimate of the value of he things he says himself, And this I have observed; that he greatest human teachers have always been reticent as to the ultimate authority of their teaching. They have always admitted that there is room for interpretation, For question, For further investigation. That note is entirely absent from the teaching of Christ. There is no apology. He never said "It is natural therefore to suppose; or consult the authorities. "

Christ left no doubt with this statement: "Heaven and earth will pass away, But my words will not pass away". His words, Recorded in Mathew 7:24~27, Are similarly difinitive, Declaring that everyone who hears and acts upon them would be like a wise man who built his house on a rock. But those who hear and don't act on His words will be foolish, Like a man who built his house on sand. In his gospel, Mark has Jesus arguably going even further, Warning, "Whosoever shall be ashamed of mMe and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, The Son of Man also shall be ashamed of him, When He cometh in he glory of His Father with the holy angels". No ordinary man could conceivably have made such statements! But nothing can beat His declaration in John 5:24: "Truly, Truly, I say unto you, Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, But has passed from death to life. "
In His final resurrection appearence recorded in Luke, Jesus makes a statement loaded with assertions of divine prerogative and with His unequivocal claim to be the very person (Christ, TheSon of God) predicted in the Old Testament: "Then he said to them, `These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, That everything written of me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fullfilled. ` Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, And said to them, `Thus is it written, That the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, And that repentence and forgiveness of sis should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, Beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things`".
Citing some ofthese statements, G. Campbell Morgan observes, "I at once confess that it seems to my own heart that the mere readin of these passages brings us into an atmosphere in which we are conscious of the august sublimity of Christs conception of the value of His ownteaching. My own convictionis that there is not a single one of these passages that we can believe to be true if we deny the Deity of our Lord. " Morgan adds this profound insight: "And if the statement be questioned, Then take any of these claims, And put them into the lips of any other teacher, And it must at once be seen how entirely and absolutly they are out of place. They are words which claima full and final authority for the One Who uttered them. "

It`s also significant that Christ claimed the unfetterred right to interpret the sacred words of the Old Testament, To pronounce what they were intended to teach, And to expose existing errors in interpretation as if He were the final Authority~which He is. He does this six times in the Sermon on the Mount, Where He introduces Old Testament quotes with words like, "You have heard that it was said, " then follows the uotes with, "But I tell you, " and proceeds to somehow modify or amplify the teaching. Writing in 1902, Rv. Hugh McIntosh said, "He developed the principles, Deeened the spirituality, Broadened the application, And put new and unthought of meanings into parts of the ancient Scriptures~though never contrary to or condemnatory of the inspiried Scriptues; and He put His own teachings in contrast as on a higher moral and spiritual plane than other ancient teaching. In short, He claimed right to interpret, Revise, Use and reset the O. T. In His own unique way. "
He alsopreceded many of His pronouncements with the words, "Truly, Truly, " which many scholars believe is the functional equivalent of saying, "Thus saith the Lord. " Joachim Jeremias describes it as a consciousness of majesty expressed in a claim to divine omnipotence.
In addition to expressly asserting His divine authority, Jesus demonstrates it, Such as when He rises and rebukes the turbulent wids and sea, And causes a great calm, Right on the heels of scolding His disciples for having "little faith". After purging a man of demons, Jesus tells him, "Return to your home, And declare how much God has done for you". He even claims to be Lord of the Sabbath in response to critical Pharisees, Which is so defiant that the Pharisees "were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus". Jesus also walks through the middle of the throngs preparing to stone Him and escapes. And, Of course, He performs His miracle, Which we could talk about in another debate.
One of my favority passages on this topic is John 7:17, In which Christ says, "If anyones will is to do Gods will, He will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. " Think about the implications of this. Christ is saying that we can't evaluate His authority or the soundness of His teaching through our own power. As G. Campbell Morgan notes, "Thus Christ said that the only way that we can trust His teaching is by obeying it; not by our own intellectual cleverness can we ever test the truth of His teaching; not by any philosophy or wit or wisdom of our own; but if we will do what He says, In doing, We shall come to certainty as to whether or not the things spoken was speech from God. " Could a mere human being makesuch a claim with any kind of credibility?
Morgan explains that what Jesus is really saying is that if any man will resolve to organize his life around His Words-His teachings-then he will be strong enough in character to endure anything life can throw at him. Christ's teachings not only build charaterthat enables us to persevere; they are the gateway to eternal life. "Not only is the foundation of charater found in these words of His, They constitute the very medium of life, " writes Morgan, "for if a man hears His word, It is the word which reveals the Father; and the man receiving it will believe the Father; and so the word will become the medium through which he will receive life. " This is a resounding confirmation of the point that the Bible~the Word of God~can lead one to faith (and salvation). "So faith comes from hearing, And hearing through the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). "From infancy, You have known the holy Scriptures, Which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15).

We will see two other affirmations of Jesus' diety in the next round.
omar2345

Con

I addition to Christs I Am staetments, He otherwise proclaims His deity and asserts divine prerogatives.
Saying I Am does not prove your God. Biblical evidence assuming it is true. Jesus still died. God cannot die due the many titles you have given. If Jesus was God then why isn't he all-knowing? You might say he is. I would say Jesus only allowed another 2018 years of sin. If he knew people were still going to sin even after he was going to die how is he all-knowing?

From his vision
There is no way a vision is enough evidence to base anything on. I can't say I had a vision that you murdered someone and you will go to jail so why is his vision so special?

Heaven and earth will pass away, But my words will not pass away
Yes it has. More people believe in Heaven then they do about words from Jesus. More then half of the population are not Christians so his words have passed away for the many who have not heard it.

Everything else I do not need to debunk. My premises for why Jesus is not God still stand and the rebuttals should be enough to counter argue the points you made.
Debate Round No. 4
jrardin12

Pro

"I tell you the truth, Before Abraham was born, I AM
So it is basically a belief then? What if I said that. Would you believe that I am God? I don't think so. This not proof it is the case. If it was then I am able to breathe in space. "

I would think that you needed to be put in a ward. Which is why Jesus is God, Because no one says that they are God.

"reaction to Jesus' deity and try to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:59)
How else would they react when disregarding their Gods? Jesus could've shown more proof of his power. Maybe a card trick. With that most of the people would drop their beliefs and join Jesus because I never heard of a great magician in Jesus's time. "

Gods? The Jews were and are monotheists. That is why they wanted to stone Him because He said He was their God, Their Creator (Elohim) and Jehovah. He performed many miracles, Which is why they hated Him more because He was proving to them that He was God. None of them were doing that at the time and only the apostles did it after Him in Jesus' name. And only special people like Elijah and Elisha had done it before had. Even today exorcists do it in the name of Jesus.

"But also asserts that He was before the patriarch Abraham, Who had lived and died more than two thousand years before.
You are looking to deep into it. "

I am not, That is what He said, Look it up.

"Before Abraham was born, I AM
This is in the present. If he said I was then he would talking in the past. Am does not mean he transcends time because how do quantify into words? Am? I don't think so. "

You are forgetting that I AM means Jehovah, Which means God.

" I would say Jesus only allowed another 2018 years of sin. If he knew people were still going to sin even after he was going to die how is he all-knowing? "

God didn't take away sin. He forgives sin. He only forgives the sin of those who repent of their sin and trust in Him.

"From his vision
There is no way a vision is enough evidence to base anything on. I can't say I had a vision that you murdered someone and you will go to jail so why is his vision so special? "

I don't know what you are trying to say.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, But my words will not pass away
Yes it has. More people believe in Heaven then they do about words from Jesus. More then half of the population are not Christians so his words have passed away for the many who have not heard it. "

His Words have not passed away. They are found in the Bible. I have a whole other debate on this subject, But if you want to do another one we can.

"God cannot die. " This is true, That is why He rose from the dead, Thus defeating death. However, When He died He did not die as God the Father, But as God the Son, A human. Just as it says in the Old Testament that it is appointed for man once to die.

Jesus speaks with unparalleled authority, And His audience instinctively acknowledges this authority without regarding His tone as audacious or presumptious. They understand He is special. His words are uniquely received in acceptance of that authority. The Gospel of Mathew reports that after Jesus completes His Sermon on the Mount, "The crowds were astonished at his teaching, For he was teaching them as one who had authority, And not as their scribes" (7:28-29). When the chief priests and Pharisees ask the officers why they haven't brought Jesus bach, They answer, "No one ever spoke like this man! " When He teaches in the synagogue in His hometoem, "They were astonished, And said, 'Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works'". When Jesus asks Peter who He is, Peter replies, "You are the Christ, The Son of the Living God". Notably, Christ blesses him for believing.
The demons also recognize Jesus' deity.
Ajith Fernando, I his book The Supremecy of Christ, Relates the story of a young English student using the gospels gor his reading lesson. In the middle of one lesson, He got up and "paced up and down the room and said, 'These are not the words of man, These are the Words of God. '" Napoleon Bonaparte also recognized the uniquiness of Christ. "I know men and tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man, " the French emperor exclaimed. "Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible comparison. Alexander, Ceaser, Charlemagne, A I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creations of our genius. Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him. "

New Testament writers also affirmed Christ's deity. For example John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, And the Word was God, All things were made by Him. "

If you are looking for reasons not to believe, I suppose you will find them. And if you are close~minded toward the supernatural or toward the Christian worldview, I concede you will continue to resist these ideas. But if you approach the evidence with an open mind and open heart, I think you might be suprised how God will begin to convice you that He is Who He has revealed Himself to be~in creation, In nqature, In His incarnation, And in His Bible.

Also if you are right and there is no God, I have nothing to lose in being a Christian, But if you are wrong you will spend eternity in a Christless hell.
omar2345

Con

I would think that you needed to be put in a ward. Which is why Jesus is God, Because no one says that they are God.
I say I am God. Does that mean I am also God? From your reasoning yes I am. To say there was no one else claiming to be God would be a lie because most people were deluded or not so intelligent back then so to say no one else claimed to be God would be a lie.

Gods?
Mistake on my part but the other rebuttals were not sufficient. You say many miracles but don't state any.

I am not, That is what He said, Look it up.
Could've given me the source. That was an assertion you made. Saw the quote and I did not get what you said which was implied in the verse.

You are forgetting that I AM means Jehovah, Which means God.
Okay. If I said I am God. Would I be God? No what makes Jesus different? You did not speak about his miracles about from saying he had many instead of speaking about them individually.

God didn't take away sin. He forgives sin. He only forgives the sin of those who repent of their sin and trust in Him.
That goes against everyone will be punished. By there sins being forgiven they get away with evil.

I don't know what you are trying to say.
A vision is no way enough evidence to say something happened.

His Words have not passed away. They are found in the Bible. I have a whole other debate on this subject, But if you want to do another one we can.
The Bible is the highest followed religion but the trend seems like they are going to lose their spot. Even though they are the most popular religion there is only about 20% of the population following the religion.

But if you approach the evidence with an open mind and open heart, I think you might be surprised how God will begin to convince you that He is Who He has revealed Himself to be~in creation, In nature, In His incarnation, And in His Bible.
I am still open minded. Remember one contradiction does prove the Bible is not the word of God. As you are surely aware there are many atheists that were once Christians, Either due to contradictions or not basing beliefs on a book that the evidence cannot be tested today to say it is right.

Also if you are right and there is no God, I have nothing to lose in being a Christian, But if you are wrong you will spend eternity in a Christless hell.
I already knew that. God would see I use reason instead of belief and be merciful. If It isn't then God would be unfair since people are different and different people require different things to change their stances. What if there is a God but it isn't the Christian one? You haven't thought about that one. See you in Islamic Hell.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
Great debate gentlemen
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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