The Instigator
Pro (for)
6 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
2 Points

Jesus is God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/28/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,946 times Debate No: 19523
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (3)




I wish to debate an honorable opponent, Rasheed, to a debate.


1- The burden of proof is equally shared.
2- All sources must be referenced
3- The bible will be used. No other book.
4- there will be 4 rounds with a 48 hour time space to reply to arguments.
5-Respect must be upheld at all costs.
6- refer as to which bible you'll be using.
*Round 1- opening arguments and acceptance.
*Rounds 2-4- Rebuttals

Jesus is God as seen in the New Testament. I look forward to your opening arguments.


Thank you for challenging me to this debate, this is the third one on this topic, but I try not to turn down challenges.

I will use this round for acceptance, but I want to amend rule 3; "The Bible will be used. No other book." I humbly reserve the right to use any credible source that advances my argument.

The title of the debate is; Jesus is God. Does my opponent mean that Jesus is a part of the Christian Trinity, or is he claiming that Jesus is the Supreme Creator of existence? I wish for him to clarify what he means in his opening argument.

I look forward to a lively, intelligent, and passionate debate.
Debate Round No. 1


I am a Catholic hence I am a Trinitarian. I hold the position that Jesus is God in a trinitarian sense ( The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all EQUALLY and FULLY God). I hope this helps you out.

1- Let us begin with who the messiah will be as far as prophecy is concerned

Isaiah 9:6 "For us a child is born,to us a child is given, and the governments will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

We see that messiah will be MIGHTY GOD, the prophecy holds the position that messiah will be God as one of his name/titles that he shall be called is MIGHTY GOD.

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will be called Immanuel"

We see messiah will bear the title "Immanuel" which means "God with us". The prophecy tells us that messiah will be "God with us".

2- Messiah has the attributes of God

** Micah 5:2 tells us of the pre-existence of messiah. It claims the eternalness of messiah as it says, "But you , Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler of Israel, whose origins are from old, from days of eternity."

Compare Micah 5:2 with John 8:58 where Jesus says "I tell you before Abraham was born, I AM.". See also Ephesians 1:3-14 and Colossians 1:15-19.

** We see messiah will be the true and only Son of God, being God Himself.

Psalms 2:7 " I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He ( The Father) said to me, "You are MY SON, today I have begotten you.""

Proverbs 30:4 "Who has gone up to heaven and gone down? Who has gathered up wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of HIS SON? Tell me if you know!"

Compare Proverbs 30:4 and Psalm 2:7 with Luke 1:32 where the Archangel Gabriel says, "He will be great, and will be called SON OF THE MOST HIGH". Also compare Psalms 2:7 with Mathew 3:17 where God the Father says " This is MY SON, in whom I am well pleased".

** The prophecies concerning messiah become even more blatant in stating that messiah will be God Himself and bear God's name.

Isaiah 9:6 blatantly says messiah will be " Mighty God".
Jeremiah 23:6 is even more blatant as it says this concerning messiah: "In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called : THE LORD our Righteousness."

We know the name of God , YHWH, is above all names. Let us see what the apostle of God, Paul had to say about Jesus in Philippians 2:9 , " Therefore God ( The Father) exalted him ( Jesus the Son) to the highest place and gave him the NAME that is ABOVE every name". Now we see God the Father gave Jesus the name YHWH which is the name above every name. But only God bears the name of God, yet Jesus as seen bears the name of God too, hence Jesus HAS to be God... God in the form of the Son as the trinity doctrine teaches.

Now my opponent and I both believe that Jesus is messiah. BUT LOOK, we see that in Hebrews 1:8 that GOD THE FATHER calls the Son( Jesus) God!!

Hebrews 1:8 "But about the Son he( God the Father) says, "Your throne, O GOD, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

The Father as seen calls Jesus, The Son, God!!

The apostle John in the book of Revelation sees Jesus face to face in a vision and calls Jesus God!

Revelation 1:8 " "I am the Alpha and the Omega". say the LORD GOD, " who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty""
We see that Jesus confesses himself to be God too as he declares himself as "the Almighty"!

We see in Philippians 2:6 Jesus is God , " who ( Jesus) , being in the very nature GOD did not consider equality with God ( the Father) something to be grasped".

** Jesus' claims to divinity

We see In John 10:30 that Jesus claims deity by saying " I and the Father are one!"

Now we see that the jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying in verse 30 and hence began to stone him. Jesus then replies in verse 32, " I have shown you many great miracles from the Father, for which one of these do you stone me?"
The jews then say in verse 33, " we are note stoning you for any of these, but for BLASPHEMY, because you, a mere man, are CLAIMING TO BE GOD."

Evidently the jews see that Jesus was claiming to be God/deity because Jesus does not Rebuke their accusations against him or say that the jews incorrectly misunderstood him when he said " I and the Father are one". He does NOT at all reject their interpretations of his words in verse 30 but ON THE CONTRARY , he affirms the jews accusations and goes on to support his claims of deity in the proceeding verses in 34-39. Hence the jews continued to stone him after verse 39. They correctly thought that Jesus was claiming deity in verse 30 and thus blaspheming. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT THE PASSAGE john 10:30-39 MAKES SENSE.

** We see Jesus uses the name of God in reference to himself.

Jesus used the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14 , " I Am Who I AM" or in shortened form , " I Am" in reference to himself!

John 8:58 " Before Abraham was born, I AM". The Jews then pick up stone in an attempt to stone him. But why do they do this? They Knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. Instead of Jesus saying " Before Abraham was, I WAS or I EXISTED", Jesus uses " I AM", a present tense statement connoting eternal existence. He evidently used the name to refer to himself hence the jews evidently were offended by this and tried to stone him for they thought he was blaspheming.

Jesus as seen is God




I would like to thank my oppponent for an impressive opening round.


My opponent has put forth the argument that Jesus is God because the Messiah has the attributes of God. My opponent quotes Micah 5:2, but not the entire verse. This is the verse in its entirety;

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the thousands of Judah, from you One will go forth to Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from old, from the days of eternity. Therefore he will give them up until the time when she who is in labor has borne a child. Then the remainder of his brethren will return to the sons of Israel. And he will arise and Shepherd his flock in the strength of YHWH, in the majesty of the name of the YAHWEH his God. (Micah 5:2-4).

Notice how the verse seen in its context proves that the Messiah has a god.

My opponent uses the argument that because the above verse seems to indicate that the Messiah is eternal that he must be God. According to the Christian Bible there is another person that can claim this also;

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." Hebrew 7:1-3

In fact, according to these verses Melchisedec is greater than Jesus, because the latter had a geneology but the former had none. But, I maintain that showing that someone is eternal does not mean that they are God, as shown by this verse.


My opponent uses circular reasoning when he says;

"We see messiah will be the true and only Son of God, being God Himself."

He then uses this verse to justify his argument;

Psalms 2:7 " I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He ( The Father) said to me, "You are MY SON, today I have begotten you."

Nevermind that this verse is referring to David, I contend that there are many sons of God in the Bible, so this also is nothing unique about Jesus;

Adam was also God's son.

"Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants.

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them." Genesis 6:2-4

Satan and his companions were sons of God.

"The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." Job 1:6

"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD." Job 2:1

God's sons were present when the universe was created (not just Jesus)

"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:6-7

Being called Lord and god does not make Jesus the Creator

My esteemed adversary uses this verse to try to prove that Jesus is God;

"Jeremiah 23:6 is even more blatant as it says this concerning messiah: 'In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called : THE LORD our Righteousness."'

But there are many Lords in the Bible. It was God who made Jesus “Lord.” Acts 2:36 says: “God has made this Jesus…both Lord and Christ.” “Lord” is not the same as “God.” “Lord” (the Greek word is kurios) is a masculine title of respect and nobility, and it is used many times in the Bible. If Christ were God, then by definition he was already “Lord,” so for the Bible to say he was “made” Lord could not be true. To say that Jesus is God because the Bible calls him “Lord” is very poor scholarship. “Lord” is used in many ways in the Bible, and others beside God and Jesus are called “Lord.”

1) property owners are called Lord (Matt. 20:8, kurios is “owner” — NIV)
2) heads of households were called Lord (Mk 13:35, owner=kurios).
3) slave owners were called Lord (Matt. 10:24, master=kurios).
4) husbands were called Lord (1 Pet. 3:6, master=kurios).
5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30, sir=kurios).
6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26, His Majesty=kurios).
7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63, sir=kurios).

I admit that Jesus is called god in the Bible, but so is Satan!
"In whom the God of this age has blinded the minds of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2 Cor: 4:4

In fact, according tothe Bible all righteous people are gods.
"I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms 82:6

Going on the offense

1 Corinthians 3:23 makes it clear that God is greater than Christ, just as Christ is greater than we are: “…and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God”

“Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Cor 11:3). It is obvious from this verse and 1 Cor. 3:23 (above) that the Trinitarian formula that Christ and God are “co-equal” is not biblical.

Numbers 23:19 also specifically says that God is not “a son of man.” In the Gospels, Jesus is often called “a son of man” or “the son of man.” If God became a human being who was called “the son of man” this creates a contradiction. Some occurances of the phrase “son of man” in the New Testament are Matthew 12:40; 16:27 and 28; Mark 2:10; 8:31; John 5:27. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the “son of man” is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8; 3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25). Human beings, including Jesus Christ, are called “son of man,” and are thus carefully distinguished from God, who is not a “son of man.”

Jesus is very plainly called a man many times in Scripture: John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5, etc. In contrast to this, the Bible says, “God is not a man…” (Numbers 23:19), and “…For I am God, and not man…” (Hosea 11:9).

There are many verses indicating that Jesus’ power and authority was given to him by the Father. If he were the eternal God, then he would have always had those things that the Scripture says he was “given.” Christ was given “all authority” (Matt. 28:18). He was given “a name above every name” (Phil. 2:9). He was given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36). He was given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39; 10:29). He was given glory (John 17:22 and 24). He was given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11). God “seated” Christ at His own right hand (Eph. 1:20). Christ was “appointed” over the Church (Eph. 1:22). These verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father, but make perfect sense if Christ was the Messiah, “a man accredited by God.”

Jesus had limited knowledge. For example, Mark 13:32 says: “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” [Although some Greek texts omit “nor the Son,” Trinitarian textual scholars now admit the phrase was in the original text of Mark. It was Trinitarian scribes who tried to have this phrase taken from the Bible because it disagreed with their theology and they could not explain it.] Even after his resurrection, Jesus still receives knowledge from God as Rev. 1:1 indicates: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him.”

I await my opponents rebuttals.

Reference: New King James Version of the Bible
Debate Round No. 2


I thank my opponent for formulating a well articulated argument. However as we shall see my opponent has made some crucial errors.

## Unaddressed arguments ##

* Jesus' claims to divinity in John 10:30,8:58 and Revelations 1:8.
* God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8.
*Jesus is called God in Philippians 2:6.
*Prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 calls Messiah "Mighty God".
* Jesus bears the name of God in Philippians 2:6.
*God has a Son in Proverbs 30:4.
* Jesus( Messiah) is "God with us" as. Stated in Isaiah 7:14.

I am compelled to the belief that my opponent concedes to these arguments as proof of the Bible's claims to Jesus' divinity.


1- My opponent uses the argument that since in Micah 5:4 it says messiah has God, this means that he is not God. Jesus DOES have a God, this is true. But remember Jesus has two natures, a divine nature and a human nature. Jesus is fully God and fully man. At the point of incarnation Jesus attained a second nature alongside his divine nature. He attained a human nature. As a result of this new human nature he inherited all the constraints of being human such as needing to sleep,eat,breath, pray and have a God (He was also jewish). He had a God because as a human he was subordinate to God. Jesus took upon the Father as his God at the point of incarnation. Psalm 22:10 sums this up the best , "From birth I was cast upon you, from my mothers womb you have been my God". As christians we believe Jesus was fully God and fully man. Hence as God he was equal with the Father but as a man he was beneath God and hence the Father became his God as Micah 5:4 says.

2- My opponent tries to use the argument that Jesus being "Son of God" is nothing special as there are many other sons of God in the bible and thus Jesus is not divine (God).

He states that Melchizedek is one of these sons of God and he uses Hebrews 7:3 as 'proof' of this. What does hebrews 7:3 say? Let us see , "Without father or mother,without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever". We see that the scripture says he is LIKE the Son of God. It does NOT say he was the Son of God. Hebrews 7:3 does not even try to hint at the idea of Melchizedek being the Son of God or anything like this. It simply lets the reader know that Melchizedek remains a priest forever like the Son of God who too remains a priest forever. It is saying Melchizedek is like Son of God ONLY in the respect of being and remaining a priest forever.

The preceding verse, Hebrew 6:20 makes this clear as it says, " where Jesus, who went before us on our behalf. He has become high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek". We see Jesus became high priest in the order of Melchizedek hence this is the only relation that Melchizedek has to Jesus.

Melchizedek is a prime case of typology. Typology is a theological term used to refer to an Old Testament picture ( person, animal, object etc) of the person and work of Jesus Christ. A case of typology is the lifted up brazen serpent that provided healing to Israelites. This serpent was a picture of Christ as stated in John 3:14-15 , " Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, and those who look on him in faith shall be healed from sin". Melchizedek too is a case of typology. Melchizedek was a picture of Christ as the eternal high priest. Melchizedek was merely a picture of the Son of God but NOT the Son of God. Melchizedek was a holy man and priest but was not the Son of God and hence is not greater than Christ who is the begotten Son of God.

My opponent then goes on with the argument of "many sons of God".

My opponent tries to use Psalm 2:7 against me by stating that it is talking about David and that David is one who is being begotten by God as in the psalm. The psalm however is in fact a messianic psalm talking about messiah. This is affirmed by both christian and jewish authorities . The psalm can only be applied to David in that it will be fulfilled in the messiah, David's heir and descendant. The psalm talks about a king who will be the begotten Son of God and will rule over all the nations. David however only was king of Israel and did not rule over all the nations as the psalm says this mystery king will. The characteristic of this individual ruling over the nations is a characteristic of the messiah. This individual who is the messiah as stated earlier will also be the begotten Son of God . This is what God says concerning the heir of David, the messiah mentioned in psalm 2:7 ; 2 Samuel 7:4 " I will be his father, and he shall be a son to me". Hence Jesus the messiah is the begotten Son of God mentioned in psalm 2:7.

My opponent then goes onto say that Adam, the angels and humanity are too called the sons of God which is true. My opponent disappointingly fails to mention the difference between Jesus' sonship and the sonship of Adam, the angels and humanity. Adam, the angels and humanity are the ADOPTED sons of God of god hence even christians and jews today still call each other sons and daughters of God. However Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God meaning he is consubstantial with God the Father. This is a very basic christian and theological teaching. Hence Jesus being Son of God is proof of his divinity as he is Consubstantial with God the Father.

3- my opponent says Jesus was not present, like the other sons of God, when the universe was created an thus Jesus is not the Son of God.

This is a HUGE mistake made by my opponent as the bible firmly teaches that Jesus is the creator and thus created the universe. As we know Jesus is the Word( logos) of God. Look at what John 1:1-3 says about the Word of God, " in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, without him nothing was made". Jesus ( the Word) was present at the creation of the universe because HE CREATED the universe as seen in John 1: 1-3!

4- My opponent then proceeds to argue that simply being called Lord and God does not make Jesus God .

This is absurd as you shall see. My opponent correctly states that there are many 'Lords' in the bible such as land lords, kings and masters etc. However he fails to mention a crucial point. The phrase "the Lord" or "adonai" in hebrew, is also used in the bible as a substitution for the name of God , Yahweh/Jehovah. Christians and jewish scribes have done this in respect of the name of God. One example of this is the messianic prophecy of Jeremiah 23:6 which normally reads "in his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called : The Lord our Righteousness". The verse should actually and originally reads as follows , "... This is the name he will be called : Yahweh our Righteousness". As seen messiah will have the Name of God and only God has the name of God, hence messiah is God.

5- My opponent admits that Jesus is called God in the bible, but then he a claims that satan allegedly is also called God in the bible.


Satan is called a god not God. Many beings are called gods in the bible e.g. The angels ( Psalm 8:5) , Holy men/ Judges ( Psalm 82:1) and satan ( 2 Corinthians 4:4) . However my opponent makes a false quotation by capitalizing the "g" in god in 2 Cor 4:4 when in face the verse simply reads, " the god of the world", god with a small "g" connoting a false deity. The english bible does a brilliant job of distinguishing and establishing the difference between God and god. The term God is used to refer to the creator Yahweh/Jehovah , the Judeo-Christian God. The term god Is used to refer to holy beings ( angels and holy men) as well as false deities ( satan , baal and other pagan deities). We see however that the term " God" ( Yahweh the creator) is applied to Jesus ( John 1:1 , Revelation 1:8, Hebrews 1:8, Philippians 2:6 etc) hence letting the reader I know that Jesus IS God the creator Yahweh/Jehovah. Simple research can explain this.

## My opponent then goes on the offense ##

He says 1 Corinthians 3:23 shows that God( The Father) is greater than Christ an that the trinitarian formula. Of Christ and God( The Father) being co-equal is not biblical.

The Father is in truth greater than Jesus. But how is he greater? The Father is greater exclusively in position. Here is an analogy : Your father is greater than you. With my opponent's logic this means that your father is more human than you are because he is greater than you... This is absurd . In reality your father is only greater than you because of his position as you father and you as his son but yet you are both co-equal in your humanity.

In the same way The Father is greater than Jesus in position only simply because Jesus is Son and God The Father is his Father. Hence The Father is Jesus' head. However this now does not mean Jesus is less divine than the Father. Jesus is in fact as much God as The Father is God hence they are co-equal in their divinity but not equal in position. This is a basic trinitarian doctrine. As seen God the Father even calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8.

The Bible DOES teach that Jesus is co-equal with God ( The Father) as seen in Philippians 2:5-6, "Your attitude should be the same as the of Christ Jesus :
Who (Jesus) , being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God( The Father) something to be grasped"

1- My opponent also uses the argument the God is not a man as stated in scripture to discredit the divinity of Jesus.

This is a very weak argument. Jesus as known pre-existed as God in the for of the Son but eventually manifested himself in the form of a man to fulfill the role of messiah and die on the cross. We even see in the Old Testament that God manifests himself in the form of a man. Two instances are in the garden of eden ( genesis 3:8) and when God visits an dines with Abraham ( genesis 18) while his two angels go destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Now in my opponents logic this means that in these two instances, since God temporarily became a man, God seized being God. But this is extremely false and absurd. God as we know CAN DO ANYTHING and as seen in genesis 3:8 and chapter 18 , God can manifest himself in the form of a man. This shows that Jesus was and Is God as. God truly is not a man but can and did manifest himself in the forma man , twice in the Old Testament and once in the New Testament in the person Jesus. This is once again supported by Philippians 2: 6-8 which reads " Who ( Jesus),being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
Being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled himself and became obedient - even to death on a cross! "

2- My opponent argues that all the glory ( worship, honor, power, sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. Etc) given to Jesus by the Father discredits Jesus' divinity simply because his glory was given to him.

But first we need to ask, when was this glory given to him?

As we see in scripture, John 17:5, Jesus ALWAYS had glory as the verse reads , "And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". As we can see Jesus had the glory of God BEFORE the world began. However as John 1:1-14 and Philippians 2:6-8 say, Jesus became a man and made himself a little lower than the angels thus surrendering all his glory to become a man. After his crucifixion and resurrection Jesus was glorified after his resurrection which answers the question posed earlier. But in order for Jesus to get back his former glory (as stated in John 17:5) , God the Father had to GIVE it back to Jesus. So this whole argument does falls on the wayside as opponent displays his lack of biblical knowledge concerning the person Jesus. His argument actually supports the biblical teaching of Jesus' divinity.

Consequently my position still stands that Jesus is God

## References :



I thank my opponent for his spirited rebuttal.

It is true that I overlooked several points that my opponent made, so let me address them now;

" I and my Father are one."

My opponent uses this verse to advance his claim that Jesus is God. If Jesus meant one in essence with God how does my opponent explain this verse, which uses the same Greek word for one, which is 'heis';

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21

This is Jesus praying for his disciples, is my opponent willing to concede that he should be worshipping fifteen gods, not three?

My opponent reads these texts literally, which would confuse someone who followed his interpretation of the Bible if they came upon these verses;

"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 1 Cor: 6:16

"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Eph 5:31

The last time I checked my wife and I are not one person!

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Genesis 2:24

"Has not [the LORD] made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth." Malachi 2:15

My opponent said that I did not address the following topics;

* God the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1:8.
*Jesus is called God in Philippians 2:6.
*Prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 calls Messiah "Mighty God".
* Jesus bears the name of God in Philippians 2:6.
*God has a Son in Proverbs 30:4.
* Jesus( Messiah) is "God with us" as. Stated in Isaiah 7:14.

A careful reading of my first post will reveal that I did in fact deal with all of these matters by giving proof that there are many gods in the Bible, which does not make him the Creator, so there is no need for me to repeat myself here. I will let the audience decide if I answered them adequately.

Capital 'G' and small 'g'

My opponent argues the following;

"Satan is called a god not God. Many beings are called gods in the bible e.g. The angels ( Psalm 8:5) , Holy men/ Judges ( Psalm 82:1) and satan ( 2 Corinthians 4:4) . However my opponent makes a false quotation by capitalizing the "g" in god in 2 Cor 4:4 when in face the verse simply reads, " the god of the world", god with a small "g" connoting a false deity. The english bible does a brilliant job of distinguishing and establishing the difference between God and god."

Of course my opponent is totally wrong. There are capital letters in Greek, however, biblical texts were written in UNCIAL (capital) letters and essential there was no capitialization (as it was all capitalized), no punctuation, and no spacing. So translators placed capital letters where THEY thought it was appropriate. Here is Esther 3:2-8 as an example;

Just so the reader does not think I'm making this up I have provided a quote from a Christian scholarly website;

"Koine Greek was the language used by writers of the Old Testament Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament. The original Greek New Testament was written in all capital letters, without spaces, punctuation, accents or diacritical marks." (

I reserve further rebuttals for my next post because I would now like to present more evidence that Jesus is not and cannot be God.

The Messiah is not God

My opponent said this in his first post;

"We see that messiah will be MIGHTY GOD, the prophecy holds the position that messiah will be God as one of his name/titles that he shall be called is MIGHTY GOD."

Again he makes this statement without offering any source. The fact of the matter is that the Messiah is not God, but was supposed to be an annointed King of Israel. Now both the son of God and the term Christ do not mean God. They never have, and never will. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God, and the Jews who were awaiting their Messiah did not believe the Messiah would be God:

The predominant Jewish understanding of moshiach (“the messiah”) is based on the writings of Maimonides, (the Rambam). His views on the messiah are discussed in his Mishneh Torah, his 14 volume compendium of Jewish law, in the section Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem, chapter 11. Maimonides writes:

“The anointed King (“HaMelekh HaMoshiach”) is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: “And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you… If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven… And He shall bring you” etc.” (Deuteronomy 30:3-5).

“These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala’am, too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David, who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers 24:17-18): “I see him but not now” – this is David; “I behold him but not near” – this is the Anointed King. “A star has shot forth from Jacob” – this is David; “And a brand will rise up from Israel” – this is the Anointed King. “And he will smash the edges of Moab” – This is David, as it states: “…And he struck Moab and measured them by rope” (II Samuel 8:2); “And he will uproot all Children of Seth” – this is the Anointed King, of whom it is stated: “And his reign shall be from sea to sea” (Zechariah 9:10). “And Edom shall be possessed” – this is David, thus: “And Edom became David’s as slaves etc.” (II Samuel 8:6); “And Se’ir shall be possessed by its enemy” – this is the Anointed King, thus: “And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord’s” (Obadiah 1:21).”

“And by the Towns of Refuge it states: “And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory… you shall add on for you another three towns” etc. (Deuteronomy 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue.”

So you see, the Messiah was to bring the Children of Israel back to her glory, he was not to be a member of a triune Godhead.

I await my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 3


I thank my opponent for his well thought out and challenging argument. Once again he has made some errors.

1- Concerning John 10:30 " I and my Father are one"

My opponent incorrectly states that the greek word for "one" used in this passage and others that he quoted to support his argument is "heis" ( means singularity, number 1, only, alone etc) but this is incorrect. He displays his lack of knowledge of the greek texts of the gospels. The greek word used is actually "hen" ( means unity) and its hebrew equivalent is "echad". God uses "hen"/ "echad" in Deuteronomy 6:4 which reads, " hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" or in Hebrew it reads " schema Yisrael , adonai elohinu, adonai ECHAD". God defines himself as a unity/ united personality rather than a singularity/ exclusive singular personality. This affirms the Trinity doctrine of God being a tri-unity of persons or in simple a trinity.

In 1st century Israel capital punishment ( stoning to death) was only for serious sins like blasphemy, adultery etc. It is evident that claiming pre-existence was not a problem but when claiming equality with God, this was blasphemy. Now in both John 8:58 and John 10:30-33 we see the jews become so infuriated by what Jesus says that they want to kill him right there and then. In John8:58 they give no reason for their actions but their actions are explained for both John 8:58 and 10:30-33 in John 10-30-33. Their reason was , " you , a mere man, are claiming to be God". If Jesus was not claiming deity, what would get the jews so "pissed off" , in what jesus said, that they would consider him to be blaspheming and thus try to kill him immediately?

Note that in Jewish theology claiming to be the Son of God ( begotten) was seen as claiming equality with God. This was the very reason Jesus was crucified, for claiming to equality with God by claiming to be his Son. Jesus astonishingly doe NOT deny these accusations against him but in fact affirms them at his trial! Caiaphas the high priest asks Jesus point blank in Mathew 26:63 " tell us if you are Christ( messiah) the Son of God". Jesus knew very well what this charge implied ( claiming equality with God), but yet he astonishingly affirms the charge as he says in Mathew 26:64 , " YES IT IS AS YOU SAY..." Or as stated Mark 14 :62 " I AM". The high in total shock tears his own robes and cries "blasphemy! You have all heard it!". As a result Jesus condemned himself to death by crucifixion under the charge of blasphemy ( claiming equality with God). Need I say more? I think we can all agree the passage speaks for itself about Jesus' claims to divinity.

Let us see what the scholars have to say concerning the claims of deity in John 10:30

This is what Albert Barnes had to say in his commentary of John 10:30

"I and my Father are one - The word "hen" translated "one" is not in the masculine, but in the neuter gender. It expresses union, but not the precise nature of union. It may express any union, and the particular kind intended is to be inferred from the connection. In the previous verse he [Jesus] had said that he and his Father were united in the same object that is, in redeeming and preserving his people. It was this that gave occasion for this remark. Many interpreters have understood this as referring to union of design and of plan. The words may bear this construction. In this way they were understood by Erasmus, Calvin, Bucer and others. Most of the christian fathers understood them, however as referring to the oneness or unity of nature between the Father and the Son; and that this was the design of Christ appears. Probable from the following considerations :

- The question in debate was not about his [Jesus] being united with the Father in plan and counsel, but in power. He affirmed that he was able to rescue and keep his people from all enemies, or that he had power superior to men and devils that is , that he had supreme power over all creation. He affirmed the same is of his Father. In this case, therefore, they were united. But this was an attribute only of God, and they [jews] thus understood him as claiming equality to God in regard to omnipotence.

- the jews understood him as affirming his equality with God, for they took up stones to punish him for blasphemy , John 10:31 and 10:33, and they said to him that they understood him as affirming that he was God, John 10:33.

- Jesus did not deny that it was his intention to be so understood.

- He immediately made another declaration implying the same thing, leaving the same impression, and which they [jews] attempted to punish in the same manner, John 10:37-39. If Jesus had not intended so to be understood, it cannot be easily reconciled with moral honesty that he did not distinctly disavow that such was his intention. The jews were well acquainted with their own language. They understood him in this manner, and he left this impression on their minds ."

2- John 17:21 " that they may also be one in us"

My opponent states:
"This is Jesus praying for his disciples, is my opponent willing to concede that he should be worshiping fifteen gods , not three."

First of all christians are monotheist meaning we worship ONE God, not three as my opponent says. This is deeply offensive and displays his lack of understanding of the Trinity doctrine.

He accused me of reading bible ( John 10:30) literally. This is incorrect. If I were to read John 10:30 literally, the text would imply then that Jesus and the Father are the same person . This is a Unitarian belief NOT Trinitarian. I am a Trinitarian as orthodox christianity teaches. Hence we as trinitarians explore the text more insightfuly to find an accurate and true meaning for it is a fact that Jesus is not the Father.

*Note: The word "one" in the greek text is "hen" meaning unity.

Now the word "one" , which means unity, is so broad in connotations that ANY connotation can be applied to any particular verse. However scholars and scribes understood that CONTEXT is best to determine what the word "one" connoted. Hence "one" in John 10:30 is not connoting the type of unity as the "one" in 1 Corinthians 6:6 and Ephesians 5:31. The oneness or unity between the man and wife is not literal unity ( my opponent mocks the scripture by making an example of him and his wife not literally being one flesh) , rather it is figurative. My opponent has displayed an ignorance of christian interpretation of the bible.

However let us again see what some the authorities, biblical scholar John Gill had to say about John 17:21

" That they also may be one in us : there is a union of all the elect to God and Christ, which is already complete, and not to be prayed for; they are all loved by God with an everlasting love, by which they are inseperably one with him; they are all chosen in Christ, as members in their head [Father an Jesus] , and are federally united to him as their mediator,surety and representative; in consequence of which he has assumed their nature, stood in their place and stead, and brought them nigh to God. There is a manifestation of union in conversion, when persons openly appear to be in Christ; and as a fruit and effect of everlasting love, are with loving kindness drawn unto him; and which will be more gloriously seen, when all the elect shall be brought in, and God shall be all in all, and is what Christ prayed for here in John 17:21"

Evidently John 17:21 is not telling us to worship 15 gods or anything ludicrous like that. It is simply showing Jesus' desire for his Church to be to be united with God in spirit and in the love of God.

3- Capital "G" and lower case "g"

As I stated in Round 3, the english bible does a brilliant job of distinguishing and establishing
a difference between God ( capital "g") meaning the creator Yahweh, and god (small "g") meaning holy mean, angels and false deities. However my opponent makes a good point in stating that this situation is absent from the Greek manuscripts. However he then states that christian scholars just pick and chose to capitalize the "g" in "god" wherever they like. This is a false representation of how the capital "g" or small "g" is applied to "god" in the english bible form greek manuscripts. Here is. How the process works:

At the time the New Testament was written, greek
Manuscripts were written in all capital letters.
The upper and lower case letters were not blended as we do today. Thus the distinction that we make today between "God" and "god" could not be made. The CONTEXT became judge in determining to whom THEOS ( greek term for god) referred to (God or god).

An example of this is John 1:1

It reads "... The word was with God and the word was God". Now how to establish which god( creator or false deity) is in context. We see from the whole chapter, John is talking about the Creator Yahweh after a simple read. I think even my opponent can agree that this easy to establish just reading the whole 1st chapter. Hence the term god is capitalized to be shown as God ( meaning the creator).

Some argue that this is incorrect. The confusion lies in " the word was God" phrase. Some argue that in the greek manuscripts, the word "theos" lacks a definite article in front of itself and thus the phrase should read, " the word was a god". However this is incorrect for one reason; the greek language does not have an indefinite article ( a or an) hence translators are left with no other option but to translate the text correctly as it is. They are left with only one conclusion on how to translate the phrase. The translation is " the word was God".


Jesus' makes several claims to divinity in various passages :

- He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father ( John 5:23)
- He who beholds me, beholds the One who sent me ( John 12:45)
- If you had known me, you would have known my Father also ( John 8:19)
- Whatever the Father does, the Son also does likewise ( John 5:19)
- No one knows the Father except the Son ( Mathew 11:27)
- He who has seen me , has seen the Father ( John 14:9)
- You believe in God, believe in me also ( John 14:1)
- All that belongs to the Father is mine ( John 16:15)

Further proof that Jesus is God is the Old Testament titles of God that are applied to Jesus. I will show them in a list with the attribute of God being stated. Then I will list the OT passage that applied it to God, then I will say ATJ ( applied to Jesus) and list the NT passage that applies the same attribute to Jesus:

1. The first and the Last - Isaiah 41:4,44:6,48:12 ATJ Rev 2:8

2. I AM ( Name of God) - exodus 3:14 ATJ John 8:58,13:19

3. Author of eternal words - Isaiah 40:8, psalm 119:89 ATJ Mathew 24:35, John 6:68

4. Light - psalm 27:1 ATJ John 1:4-9,1:8-12, 1 John 1:5

5. Rock - Deut 32:31, psalm 18:2,92:15, Isaiah 8:14
ATJ 1 Peter 2:6-8, 1 Col 10:4

6. Bridegroom - Isaiah 62:5, Hosea 2:16 ATJ Mark 2:19, Rev 21:2

7. Shepard - Psalm 23:1 ATJ John 10:11, Hebrews 13:20

8. Redeemer - Hosea 13:14, Psalm 130:7 ATJ Titus 2:13-14, Rev 5:9

9. Savior - Isaiah 43:3, Hosea 13:4 ATJ 2 Peter 1:1

10. The Lord of Glory _ Isaiah 42 :8 ATJ John 17: 1-5, 1 Cor 2:8

11 Judge of the world - Joel 3:12 ATJ Mathew 25: 31-46

12. The second coming God - Zechariah 14:5 ATJ Mathew 16:27,24:29-31

13. The first coming God - Isaiah 40:3 ATJ Mathew 3:3

14. King of Glory - Psalm24:7,24:10 ATJ 1 Cor 2:8, John 17:5

15. Yahweh our Righteousness : Jeremiah 23:5-6 ATJ 1 Cor 1:30

16. Yahweh above all - Psalm 97:9 ATJ John 3:33

17. Yahweh first and last - Isaiah 44:6,48:12-16 ATJ Rev 1:8, 1:17, 22:13

18. Yahweh's fellow and equal - Zechariah 13:7 ATJ Philippians 2:6

19. The Lord Almighty - Isaiah 6:1-3,8:13-14 ATJ John 12:41. 1 Peter 2:8

20. Yahweh - Psalm 110:1 ATJ Mathew 22:42-45

21. Yahweh the shepherd - Isaiah 40:11 ATJ Hebrews 13:20

22. Yahweh, for who's all glory, all things were created - Proverbs 16:4 ATJ Colossians 1:16

23. Yahweh the messenger of the Covenant - Malachi 3:1 ATJ Luke 7:27

24. Invoked as Yahweh - Joel 2:32, Isaiah 45;22 ATJ 1 Cor 1:2

25. The eternal God and Creator - Psalm 102:24-27 ATJ Hebrews 1:8,1;10-12

26. The great God and saviour - Isaiah 43:11-12 ATJ Titus 1:3-4,2:10,3:4-6

27. God the Judge - Eclesiastes 12:14 ATJ 1 Cor 4:5, 2 Cor 5;10, 2 Timothy 4:1

28. Immanuel ( God with us) - Isaiah 7:14 ATJ Mathew 1:23

30. The Holy One - 1 Samuel 2:2 ATJ Acts 3:14

31. Lord of all - 1 Chronicles 29:11-12 ATJ Acts 10:36, Romans 10:11-13

32. Creator of all things - Isaiah 40:28, Psalm 148:1-5 ATJ John 1:3, Col 1:16

33. Supporter, preserver of all things - Nehemiah 9:6 ATJ Clossians

34. Stumbling rock of offense - Isaiah 8:13-14 ATJ Romans 9:32-33, 1 Peter 2:8

35. Confess that He is Lord - Isaiah 45:23 ( Yahweh) ATJ Philippians 2:11 (Jesus)

36. The judge of all men - Psalm 98:6 ATJ Acts 17:31

37. Raiser of the dead - 1 Samuel 2:6 , Psalm 119 ( 11 times) ATJ John 11:25,5:21

38. Co-sender of the Holy Spirit - John 14:1 ( The Father sends) ATJ John 15:26 ( Jesus sends)

39. Led captivity captive - Psalm 68:18 ATJ Ephesians 4:7-8

40. Seen by Isaiah - Isaiah 6:1 ATJ John 12:41

41. Judge of the nations - Joel 3:2 ATJ Mathew 25:31-41

42. Salvation by calling His name - Joel 2:32 ATJ Romans 10:13

And there are still MANY more

Other human beings affirm Jesus' deity or accuse him of blasphemy( claiming equality with God) :

#Thomas his disciple - " My Lord and my God" ( John 20:28)

# Peter his disciple _ " The Son of the Living God" ( Mathew 16:16, John 5:18)- to a jew this made him God's equal

# John his disciple - " making himself [Jesus] equal with God" ( John 5:18)

# The jews - " You, a mere man, are claiming to be God" ( John 10:33)

# The jewish high priest - " you have heard the blasphemy" ( Mark 14:61-64)

4- I'll conclude with the comments of one of the most esteemed NT scholars, C.S. Lewis, on the deity of Christ Jesus :

" People often say about him [Jesus] : "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God". That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic- on a level of man who says he is a poached egg- or else he would be the devil of hell."

" You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God : But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

" One part of the claim tends to slip past us unnoticed because we have heard it so often that we no longer see what it amounts to. I mean the claim to forgive sins : any sins. Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offenses against himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did! He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if he was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offenses. This makes sense only if He really was God. These words [ if Jesus was not God]. Would imply what I can only regard as silliness and conceit unrivaled by any other character in history."


I thank my opponent for this interesting and most memorable debate, and I hope to debate him again soon. It has been an honor.


References :






I once again thank my opponent for his timely rebuttal.

Hen and Heis

My opponent is correct in stating that it is 'hen' that is used for one and not 'heis.' The problem that he still has is that 'hen' is used in John 17:21 when Jesus is made to say;

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

I have not read an adequete reason why my opponent uses the one (hen) in John 10:30 as proof that Jesus and God are one person but dismisses the very same one (hen) as meaning something different in John 17:21. This strikes me as selective reasoning, but I leave that to you the reader to decide.

Begotten used for Jesus

My opponent uses the word begotten without giving the reader a clear understanding of the word. Let's look up the meaning of this word begotten:;

1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2. to cause; produce as an effect
3. To father; sire.
4. To cause to exist or occur; produce

Doesn't this mean that Jesus was 'procreated' , 'generated' or 'produced'?
This verse CONFIRMS that Jesus was created and given (to this earth) by another party FAR SUPERIOR than him.

Jesus WAS created and therefore cannot pre-existed. And since he was created, he cannot be part of the Creator.

Misrepresenting biased sources as credible scholars

My opponent misrepresents two Christian ministers as scholarly sources. Albert Barnes and John Gill.

"Albert Barnes - (1798 - 1870) , American theologianAlbert Barnes was born at Rome, New York, on December 1, 1798. He graduated from Hamilton College, Clinton, New York, in 1820, and from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1823. Barnes was ordained as a Presbyterian minister by the presbytery of Elizabethtown, New Jersey, in 1825, and was the pastor successively of the Presbyterian Church in Morristown, New Jersey (1825-1830), and of the First Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia (1830-1867)."

"John Gill(1697–1771)English Baptist theologian

Dr. John Gill stands as one of the most important and yet misunderstood of our Baptist forefathers. His spirituality and intellect were only matched by the intensity with which others loved him or reviled him."

Here is a standard for credible sources:

"If the source's author is known to be emotionally or financially connected with the subject, be aware that the source may not fairly represent all views. Sometimes research is necessary to determine relationships that indicate the possibility of bias."

I leave you the reader to decide if the quotes from my opponents sources are reliable.

Trinity is not unique to Christianity

The early Christian Church absorbed pagan populations and some of their beliefs;

"One idea that became popular among Christians around the fourth century was that of a trinity of gods. It was not, however, a new idea conceived by Christians, for there is much evidence of widespread belief in similar ideas throughout earlier recorded history.
Many scholars believe that the Trinity, as taught by Christians, comes from Plato as suggested in the Timaeus, but the Platonic trinity is itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples.In Indian religion there is the Trinitarian group of Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus.
In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.Trinities of gods existed in other cultures as well, including, but not limited to, those of Siberia, Persia, Japan, Scandinavia, and Mexico.We can see, therefore, that although the Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it."

Bible does not support Trinity

My opponent argues that Jesus is equal with God, as well as being God as expressed by the Nicean Creed. Here are several examples of Jesus not being equal to God;

1- Jesus is not all knowing:

Jesus said: I do not know, only GOD Almighty Knows, when he was asked about the Hour:
Jesus said: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)"

2- Jesus denied being good

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can he be equal to God?

Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

3- Jesus never said I am God:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

4- God is not man according to bible and becuase is not born out of women .

"God IS not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" (Numbers 23:19)

"I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." (Hosea 11:9)

Job 25:4-6
How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Jesus was born, and according to this verse could not be equal to God.

5- Jesus could not save anyone

The Bible also claims that Jesus cannot save anyone! Here is the passage:

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

So Jesus cried to the one who could save him from death, this means Jesus could not save himself from death, therefore this also means Jesus cannot save anyone else from death. How can Jesus be God when he cannot save anyone? This also shows that Jesus is not in control of life and death, God however is in control of everything, including life and death.

6-Jesus' Miracles were not unique in the Bible

According to the Books of Kings, Elijah raised the dead, brought fire down from the sky, and ascended into heaven by a whirlwind.
Curing the blind:
(From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 6:15-24)

Gving life to death
When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 13:20-22)"


My opponent asks you the reader to suspend your knowledge of grammer, math, and history to vote for him. I only ask that you look at the evidence and vote con.
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by danger93 6 years ago
hmm....what did I just read from Wandile??? GO RASHEED. no voting since i hate when people annoy me for not voting den
Posted by Wallstreetatheist 6 years ago
And the circular logic champion of the world is..............................Wandile!
Congratulations! :D
Posted by Wandile 6 years ago
I was using the NIV translation of the bible
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by logicrules 6 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro's Prophecy argument is tenuous at best. Rule 1 Anyone can prove anything using scripture. Holy writings mean what the faith community wants them to mean, eg Paul has caused more problems than he has solved.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 6 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: The fact that the Jews interpreted Jesus's statement as a claim to divinity, along with the unaddressed explicit claims of divinity in other portions of scripture make this a pretty clear defeat for Rasheed.
Vote Placed by Buckethead31594 6 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: What an incredible performance by both sides. Pro did an excellent job refuting Con's arguments. Con mostly held the BoP, nonetheless, most of Con's sources seemed redundant, but legitimate. This was tricky, as both sides presented their cases incredibly. My vote is in Pro's favor as of now; however, I may change it later.