The Instigator
mosc
Con (against)
The Contender
primeministerJoshua812
Pro (for)

Judaism needs Christianity to stand up under the Historical method

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 551 times Debate No: 117729
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

mosc

Con

O K Mr. Hot Shot, Your on. Torah teaches spirituality not history. Xtianity which limits the gods to 3 physical dimensions requires a historical physical Jesus son of Zeus. For this Jesus son of Zeus to exist only as a myth personal belief system Xtianity as as religion ceases to exist. Idolatry requires a 3 dimensional idol.

The son of Zeus requires a physical body, The church has nothing but some outline on a sheet which if refuses to carbon date. The 2nd cumming of this none sensical myth requires that a person personally believe. This god requires that a person believe in order for it to even exist. The same holds truth with both Zeus and Allah. All one in all childish belief systems which fools murder rape and steal to believe.
primeministerJoshua812

Pro

My first post is simple. None of the figures in the T'nach/Old Testament stand under historical scrutiny. I will spend this first post discussing why the Gospels are historical documents of Antiquity in Ancient Palestine under the occupation of the Roman Empire. I will be using the works of Dr. Craig Blomberg an American New Testament scholar. He is currently a Distinguished Professor of the New Testament at Denver Seminary in Colorado where he has been since 1986. His areas of academic expertise are the New Testament.

(1) More so than with any other literary work of antiquity, We can have enormous confidence in reconstructing what the original texts of the Gospels most likely said. While none of the autographs remains, The sheer volume of manuscripts (from tiny fragments to complete New Testaments)-5, 000 in ancient Greek alone-far outstrips what we have for any other Jewish, Greek or Roman literature, Where historians often consider themselves fortunate to have manuscripts numbering in double figures! The art and science of textual criticism enable scholars to date, Classify, Compare and contrast these documents where they differ and determine, With 97 to 99 percent accuracy, What the originals most probably contained. With the oldest known fragment of any of the Gospels, A few verses from John 18 dating to around A. D. 125, We are within one generation of that document's original composition. For most other ancient works, At least several centuries elapse between the originals and the oldest existing copies. None of this makes anything in the Gospels true, But it does mean we know what their writers claimed, Something which we are often not at all sure of about other ancient writers.

(2) The authors were in a position to write accurate history if they so chose. Traditional Christian claims affirm that the Gospels were written by two of Jesus' twelve closest followers (Matthew and John), A third man (Mark) who closely followed the memoirs of Peter, The leader of the Twelve, And a fourth (Luke) who carefully interviewed eyewitnesses of Jesus' life as well as consulting previously written sources (Luke 1:1-4). More skeptical scholars have often suggested that we should think of anonymous first-century Christians instead, Perhaps disciples of the four men mentioned here. But either way, We are at most two removes away from eyewitness information.

(3) Conservative scholars typically date Matthew, Mark and Luke to the 60s and John to the 90s; liberal scholars tend to favour a date for Mark in the 70s, Matthew and Luke in the 80s and John in the 90s. But either way, We are still talking about first-century testimony. Again, Compare these last two points with the typical situation for other ancient histories and biographies. The detailed life of Alexander the Great, However, Which most historians believe can be reconstructed with a fair amount of accuracy, Depends on Arrian and Plutarch's late first and early second-century biographies of a man who died in 323 B. C.

(4) But were the first two generations of Christians (ca. A. D. 30-100) even interested in preserving historical information? This has often been doubted, Primarily for two reasons. First, Some argue that the perception of the possibility of Jesus' quick return to Earth to bring an end to this age as we know it would have precluded any interest in functioning as historians. Who bothers to record history, Even of that believed to be sacred, If they think the world might end at any time? Well, Jews, For one, At least since the eighth century B. C! Their prophets had been promising that the "Day of the Lord" was at hand for centuries at yet God's people also recognized that a day with the Lord was as a thousand years (Psalm. 90:4), So the ordinary course of human events continued. Second, Some allege that the ideological (i. E. , Theological) bias of the Gospels writers would have necessarily distorted the historical facts. There is no doubt that a passionate commitment to a certain ideology can lead some writers to play fast and loose with history, But certain kinds of ideologies actually require greater loyalty to the facts. Jews after World War II, For example, For precisely the reason that they were passionately committed to preventing a Holocaust such as they had experienced under the Nazis from ever happening again, Objectively chronicled in detail the atrocities they had suffered. It was less committed people who produced the appalling revisionism that substantially minimized the extent of the Holocaust or even denied it altogether. Because Christian faith depended on Jesus having lived, Died and been resurrected according to the biblical claims (1 Cor. 15), The Gospels' authors would have good reason to tell the story straight.

(5) But could they pull it off? Even just thirty years after historical events, Memories can grow dim and distorted. But first-century Judaism was an oral culture, Steeped in the educational practice of memorization. Some rabbis had the entire Hebrew Scriptures (the Christian Old Testament) committed to memory. Memorizing and preserving intact the amount of information contained in one Gospel would not have been hard for someone raised in this kind of culture who valued the memories of Jesus' life and teaching as sacred.

(6) Why then are the Gospels not word-for-word alike? Why was more than one needed in the first place? Moreover, The verbatim similarities among the Synoptics are usually taken as a sign of literary dependence of one Gospel on another or two together on a common source. There are a whole host of reasons for these differences. Many have to do with what each author selected to include or leave out from a much larger body of information of which he was aware (John 21:25). Distinctive theological emphases, Unique geographical outlines, And larger questions of literary subgenre account for many of these selections and omissions. But even where the Gospels include versions of the same event, Verbatim parallelism usually remains interspersed with considerable freedom to paraphrase, Abridge, Expand, Explain and stylize other portions of the accounts. All this was considered perfectly acceptable by the historiographical standards of the day and would not have been viewed in any as errant. But recent scholarship is also pointing out how the flexibility and patterns in oral storytelling would have accounted for many of the more incidental differences as Christian tradition initially passed these stories on by word of mouth.

(7) Can we even assume, Then, That the Gospel writers were trying to write something akin to an ancient history or biography rather than, Say, A novel or a tragedy in drama form? Yes, For the closest parallels to Luke's prologue come in the comparatively accurate writers of history such as Josephus in the Jewish world and Herodotus and Thucydides in the Greek world.

(8) Another pair of arguments pushes the case even further. The so-called "hard sayings" of Jesus suggest that the Gospel writers felt considerable constraint on what they could or could not include. Even though Luke's version of Jesus' command to hate father and mother (Luke 14:26) can be explained by its parallel in Matthew (Matt. 10:37), It would have been far easier for Luke simply to omit it altogether and avoid the apparent contradiction with the Mosaic command to honor one's parents if he had felt free to do so. The same thing can be said of Jesus' claim not to know the day or hour of his return (Mark 13:32). Numerous embarrassments in the Gospels could have been avoided if their writers had anywhere close to the freedom to tamper with the tradition in the ways that the Jesus Seminar and like-minded writers have alleged they had.

(9) Conversely, The topics that Jesus never addresses in the canonical Gospels further support their accuracy. The debate over whether Gentile adult males in a world without anesthesia-had to be circumcised as a sign that they were keeping the whole Jewish Law en route to becoming Christians threatened to tear the first generation of Christianity wide apart (Gal. 2:1-10; Acts 15). The easiest thing in the world for one of the Gospel writers to have done would have been to quote Jesus' teaching on the topic-or invent some if they felt free to do so. But no verse anywhere in the canonical Gospels expresses Jesus' opinion on the role of circumcision among his followers. The same can be said of speaking in tongues, An issue which threatened to blow the Corinthian church sky high (see 1 Cor. 12-14) 25 years after Jesus' death.

(10) A dozen or so non-Christian writers or texts confirm a remarkable number of details in the Gospels about Jesus' life that he was a Jew living in the first third of the first century, Born out of wedlock, A self-styled teacher who became very popular, Selected certain men as his inner core of disciples, Disregarded Jewish dietary laws and ate with the despised, Enraged certain Jewish leaders, Even though believed to be the Messiah by others, Was crucified by Pontius Pilate but believed to have been raised from the dead by some of his followers who began a fledgling religion that never died out. Some might argue that this does not seem like a lot of detail but in a world in which almost all historical and biographical writing focused on kings, Emperors, Military generals, People in institutional positions of religious power, Famous philosophers whose "schools" had long outlived them, And, More generally, The well-to-do and influential, It is remarkable that Jesus gets mentioned at all by the first-through-third century non-Christian writers. Before the legalization of Christianity in the fourth century, Who would have expected this obscure, Crucified rabbi to produce a following that would one day become the religion adopted by the greatest percentage of people on earth?

I do not have enough space for my two other points so.
Debate Round No. 1
mosc

Con

C/P: "None of the figures in the T'nach/Old Testament stand under historical scrutiny. "

You're opening thesis statement. . . Simply absurd. Torah does not teach history but rather the spirituality of morality. Stories do not require real life people, Any more than does the fable of Jack and Jill.

C/P: "I will spend this first post discussing why the Gospels are historical documents of Antiquity in Ancient Palestine under the occupation of the Roman Empire. "

No discussion of these vile counterfeit documents merits consideration without addressing the fundamental issue as to why all the existing manuscripts of the noise testament the authors chose to write in Greek and not Hebrew or Aramaic, The language spoken by the Jewish people? Who then qualifies as the target audience of the Noise testament? Goyim not Jews.

C/P: "I will be using the works of Dr. Craig Blomberg an American New Testament scholar. He is currently a Distinguished Professor of the New Testament at Denver Seminary in Colorado where he has been since 1986. His areas of academic expertise are the New Testament. "

Your reliance upon Mr. Blomberg proves that you have no working knowledge not of Hebrew, Aramaic, Or Greek. My limitations exclude discussing the Greek manuscripts b/c as you have ignorance in Hebrew and Aramaic so too myself with Greek. But this does not bother me, B/c Xtianity exists as a foreign alien religion outside of Torah faith.

1) Numbers do not replace quality. The Dead Sea Scroll discovery - manuscripts of the T'NaCH Books which predate the earliest surviving manuscripts of the T'NaCH by over a 1000 years! The amazing duplication between the later and earlier manuscripts - totally identical texts! That's amazing.

C/P: "The art and science of textual criticism"

This late 19th century protestant "higher criticism", Utter speculation. The approach to this foreign alien method of scholarship fails miserably to address the intent of the framers of the texts. Rather higher criticizes language obscurities with the theory that different authors wrote the Books codified in the T'NaCH. The Book of Isaiah they premise in their higher criticism theory has multiple authors.

The fundamental flaw of protestant higher criticism, It fails to grasp that the prophets commanded rebukes which teach Torah morality. This instruction comes under the name of mussar. The Book of Proverbs specifically talks about the importance of mussar. The prophets teach mussar and do not talk about mussar as does the Book of proverbs/Mishle.

C/P: "With 97 to 99 percent accuracy"

Noise. Percentage of accuracy refers to statistical data based upon random samples. Statistics does not apply in the study of ancient manuscripts. Statistics can not comprehend the concept of morality.

C/P: "A few verses from John 18 dating to around A. D. 125"

Bunk on the dating, Simply don't buy it. But even if its correct, The book of john - written almost 100 years after the events it claims to have personally witnessed. Mr. Homo, How does the Torah view false witness testimony?

C/P: "We are within one generation of that document's original composition. "

Bunk on speculation. Fact, Even by the most generous and liberal estimation "one or two generation gap" between the mythical imaginary events which the noise testament jabbers about.

C/P: "For most other ancient works, At least several centuries elapse between the originals and the oldest existing copies. "

Bunk. Torah teaches the spirituality of morality. The stories of the Torah and NaCH do not require a historical basis in fact any more than does the story of Jack and Jill where Jack went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. The noise testament by contrast foists the fable of jesus son of Zeus as a factual historical character. This fundamental distinction, Its where protestant 'higher criticism' falls totally flat. The foreign alien protestant fools never attempt to address the moral instruction in their 'higher criticism". These barbarian immoral pigs produced the perpetrators of genocide.

C/P: "Something which we are often not at all sure of about other ancient writers. " The noise testament shares nothing with teaching the discipline of raising a Moral Man. Rape slaughter oppression and murder define the entire history of church domination of Europe and the evil spread of the European empires across the world. Niggar 200 years ago your butt white Xtians sold in auctions.

2) fails totally to explain the sharp contrast between the gospel none sense as opposed by the Pauline propaganda. How did the man who participated in the violent murder of Stephen. Nor does the fact that the stoning flagrantly violated Torah law does the Book of Act even remotely consider.

3) Bunk. The earliest manuscripts on papyrus are divided into three primary groups: the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, The Chester Beatty/Michigan Papyri, And the Bodmer Papyri. This collection contains one papyrus that dates to the second century, While others date to the late third or early fourth century. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. "So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, They would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament" (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005). Papyrus 52 (P52), Which contains a small fragment of John"s gospel, (18. 31-33, 37-38) is considered to be the earliest copy of New Testament text. Discovered in 1934 by C. H. Roberts, It is believed to have been copied no later than 150 AD but no earlier than 100 AD.

4) The Holy Writings of the NaCH literature compare to the Gemara of the Talmudic literature. Just as the Gemara serves as the primary commentary to the 6 Orders of the Mishna, So too the Holy Writings, Tehillem/Psalms, For example serves as the primary commentary by which to learn the mussar which the prophets commanded. Quoting a Holy Writing work without referencing it to a Prophetic source of mussar - bad scholarship on par with quoting a halachic ruling made by the Rambam without bringing the sugia of Gemara which that halachic ruling came from. Learning a specific into its larger context, That's just fundamental correct scholarship.

Goyim Xtians have lived in physical exile waiting for the 2nd cumming of their myth the son of Zeus.

5) C/P: "But first-century Judaism was an oral culture"

Bunk. A statement made by a foreign outsider alien. Perhaps you come from Mars?
Oral Torah its a logic system. The compilation of the works Mishna and Gemara stand based upon this logic system. Knowing the logic system, That's a discipline passed down from rabbi to student to this very day. The Mishna's Common Law Case/Rule style employs Hebrew logic and not Greek logic. You as an alien outsider do not know the difference between the two logic formats.

Rote learning the prophet Isaiah totally condemned! Rote learning of memorization of texts = childrens learning, On par with a 1st grader reading the story of Jack and Jill!

6) The amazing precision between earlier and later T'NaCH manuscripts, Mentioned above, Totally contrasts with the vast discrepancies and blatant contradictions within the noise testament books. These books stand upon myths and lies. They do not attempt to instruct a moral man.

7) You ask an open question. Therefore it merits no comment.

8) Only proves how poorly written and edited the noise testament which Xtians worship as holy. How does the Torah define holy? You do not know.

9) This religion based upon mythology had allot of problems. The church slaughter of heretics who rejected church dogma proves this conclusively.

10) The noise testament knows nothing of the concept of K'dushin in Jewish marriage. The birth of the son of Zeus totally profanes Torah law and custom. The perversion of this false messiah walks in the error of Korach and the 250 elders in the days of Moshe who sought to replace Aaron with someone else as the Cohen ie the anointed messiah/moshiach. The story of Samuel anointed Shaul/Saul [same dude the agent provocateur Paul was named after], That king lost the kingdom b/c he failed to obey the commandments [all the commandments not just the Xtian stupidity of 10 commandments]. The anointing of David as king stands in the shadow of king Shaul's lose of the kingdom! The noise testament fails to address the prophet Sh'muel's anointing of the house of David to fill the role of Moshe the law giver.

Moshe anointed Aaron as Moshiach. Moshiach means dedicated to HaShem with a specific purpose. The anointing of David - to obey the 613 commandments which Moshe the prophet commanded 611 of these commandments in the Name of the God of Israel; the anointing of Aaron and his house: holy to dedicate tohor Oral Torah middot. No foreign outsider knows what tohor means. No alien from another planet knows what middot means; much less how these middot define Oral Torah logic.
primeministerJoshua812

Pro

Good evening. The Torah does teach history it is a history book for ancient Israel. The fact that you say it doesn't make me doubt what you truly know about Judaism.

The manuscripts were written in a multitude of languages. The writers due to the place they lived and worked in most likely spoke Hebrew and/or Aramaic.

It is true I speak nor write in Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The point of textual criticism is that the more written or orally pasted "documentation" that there is of an event in history and the closer the documentation is to the timeline of the events it describes the more accurate it is.

The Musar movement is a Jewish ethical, Educational and cultural movement that developed in 19th century Lithuania, Particularly among Orthodox Lithuanian Jews. Not something we are talking about right now.

We are talking about history, Not morality.

The writer of the gospel of John was obviously an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life since he speaks from a perspective of having been there during many of the events of Jesus' ministry and displays a good knowledge of Israeli geography and customs.

The John Rylands papyrus fragment 52 of John's gospel dated in the year 135 contains portions of John 18, Verses 31-33, 37-38. This fragment was found in Egypt, And a considerable amount of time is needed for the circulation of the gospel before it reached Egypt. It is the last of the gospels and appears to have been written in the 80's to 90's. Of important note is the lack of mention of the destruction of the Jewish temple in A. D. 70. But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events. Instead, He focused on the theological aspect of the person of Christ and listed His miracles and words that affirmed Christ's deity. Though there is still some debate on the dates of when the gospels were written, They were most assuredly completed before the close of the first century and written by eyewitnesses or under the direction of eyewitnesses.

The Torah is a history book for Ancient Israel unless you believe that every part of the Torah is ceremonial.

On Christianity and Morality, The basis for Christians morals are the two greatest commandments which are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, Soul, Mind etc and to love your neighbour as yourself! Christianity played a big role in the abolition of slavery many of the abolitionists were either Ministers or active in their Church but not in a ministerial position. Stoning is also not forbidden in the Torah so please make sure you understand what you are talking about.

Okay, So the oldest of this manuscripts dates back to around 100 A. D. Eyewitnesses of Christ would still have been alive at this time period either as a first or second generation. Take a look at Mark's Gospel. Mark was not an eyewitness to the events of Jesus' life. He was a disciple of Peter and undoubtedly it was Peter who informed Mark of the life of Christ and guided him in writing the Gospel known by his name. "Papias claimed that Mark, The Evangelist, Who had never heard Christ, Was the interpreter of Peter, And that he carefully gave an account of everything he remembered from the preaching of Peter. "7 Generally, Mark is said to be the earliest gospel with an authorship of between A. D. 55 to A. D. 70.

I fail to understand your nonsense in your fourth point. Christ is coming turn to him now. The evidence supports him.

What does Logic have to do with Oral Tradition?

What are the New Testament discrepancies and blatant contradictions?

Sure.

Depends on what holiness as the Torah identifies different types of holiness such as ethical holiness and ceremonial holiness.

Is it not written in the T'nach that someone who worships other Gods is to be stoned to death. Please end the hypocrisy.

Okay so God is over the law he made and thus has the power to reform his law and also his law is for humans not him and so God wasn't breaking anything impregnating Mary. Jesus is a descendant of David, Please read the genealogy of Christ.

While I don't know what a tohor is I know what a middot. An interpunct ( " ), Also known as an interpoint, Middle dot, Middot, And centred dot or centred dot, Is a punctuation mark consisting of a vertically centred dot used for interword separation in ancient Latin script. (Word-separating spaces did not appear until some time between A. D. 600 and 800. )

For the Jewish Term: In Pirkei Avot 6:6, We read:

The Torah is greater than the priesthood and than royalty, Seeing that royalty is acquired through 30 virtues, The priesthood twenty-four, While the Torah is acquired through 48 virtues.

These 48 Jewish virtues or values (in Hebrew middot, The plural form of middah) serve as the basis for the study of a variety of Jewish texts. Perfect for students of all ages, Middot can be studied individually, With a study partner, And by families. Whether engaging your family at the Shabbat dinner table or taking some time to study on a Shabbat afternoon, Make middot part of your Jewish learning with these helpful study guides.

The evidence clearly points to Christ and your ramblings even show this more than you might have taught of.

Blessings.
Debate Round No. 2
mosc

Con

My Male/female opponent demands that Torah teaches history. Bunk. Torah, Written by men as a time date. The T'NaCH employs history as found in the Books of Kings and the Book words of the days translated as Chronicles in the vile Xtian 'old testament'; history exists as a wagon metaphor which transports the goods of moral instruction called mussar.

Mr. Ms confusion reveals his ignorance of comparative religions. He insists that only church dogma applies in making interpretations of the Bible worthless translations. Mr/ms: referred to a Mr. Confusion from here on, Insists that the Hebrew T'NaCH has manuscripts written in multiple languages. He only speaks English so this makes his declaration definative. . . NOT. Rabbi Yechuda HaNasi/the Prince/ codified the Mishna in about 210 CE. At that time the Torah had Hebrew Aramaic and Greek manuscripts.

Human beings live through time, So some Torah manuscripts have greater antiquity than other Torah manuscripts. Every synagogue reads a Safer Torah on shabbot. The vast majority of these Torah manuscripts - written by contemporary Soferim/scribes!

C/P: "textual criticism" requires logic. The Oral Torah logic system, Mr. Confusion does not know. Therefore mr. Confusion must rely upon alien foreign logic systems by which to interpret the Torah. Bah!

C/P: "The Musar movement is a Jewish ethical, Educational and cultural movement that developed in 19th century Lithuania, Particularly among Orthodox Lithuanian Jews. Not something we are talking about right now. "

Rabbi Israel Salanter emphasized the idea of Mussar in the late 19th century due to the over reach of the Lithuanian Jews or Litvaks over emphasis of pilpulism in Talmudic scholarship. But the Aggaditah of the Talmud and the great codes of Midrashim developed by the Gaonim scholars which predated the Reshonim scholars of the Middle Ages focused upon mussar. Rashi p'shat on the Chumash defines p'shat through Aggadita and Midrashim! The Book of Mishle/Proverbs its all about mussar! Its a gross error to declare mussar started in the late 19th century by Rabbi Israel Salanter!

C/P: "The writer of the gospel of John was obviously an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life since he speaks from a perspective of having been there during many of the events of Jesus' ministry and displays a good knowledge of Israeli geography and customs. "

Bunk. John was the last of the four gospels and by some authorities carbon dating his manuscript of the gospels was written in the 3rd or 4th century. Eye Witness. . . Total narishkeit! Mr. Confusion says an earlier manuscript exists written in 135, Hmmmmmmm a 100 years after the facts. The flaw of Xtianity and the fundamental reason that its a vile religion of idolatry, That it limits the Gods to 3 physical dimensions. Xtianity requires a physical historical jesus son of Zeus.

The physical evidence of the son of Zeus - a person could not write a descent obituary for this imaginary mythical man/god. Jesus and Hercules, The rape off spring of Zeus a mythical Greek God.

C/P: "But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events"
Logic requires consistency. Mr Confusion opens by insisting that Torah teaches history, But he ditches this bit-h, When his/her history whore no longer serves the interests of Mr. Confusion. The book of John a false witness account of an imaginary mythical man.

Mr. Confusion now presumes to define the faith of the Jewish people. He writes "The Torah is a history book for Ancient Israel unless you believe that every part of the Torah is ceremonial. " What utter and total arrogance! This dude knows nothing of Torah and how it functions as the foundation upon which stands all Talmudic scholarship. Yet this fool presumes that he can place all of Jewish scholarship, Which he has never studied, Into a nice convenient box. What a complete and utter fool.

C/P: "The basis for Christians morals are the two greatest commandments which are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, Soul, Mind etc and to love your neighbour as yourself! "

The rhetoric BS is strong with this one, To paraphrase Darth Vader, One of the Gods of Star Wars

C/P: "Okay, So the oldest of this manuscripts dates back to around 100 A. D. Eyewitnesses of Christ would still have been alive at this time period either as a first or second generation. "

If this imaginary dude began his messiah career at 30 how old were the disciples? If they were new born babies by 100 CE. . . Dude get real. The average life span of people during that period, Most people lived up to their 50s! You rely upon false witness testimony. The Egypt Exploration Society has recently published a Greek papyrus that is likely the earliest fragment of the Gospel of Mark, Dating it from between A. D. 150"250. This none sense about a manuscript of Mark earlier than that, Only exists in fantasies and dreams.

Jews rule our homelands our exile has ended. The church which swore that Jews must walk the face of the earth as cursed despised exiles - utterly and totally false. The establishment of the Jewish state sent the church into cursed exile. Your church declared itself the 'new israel', Now its your turn to endure exile. You wait for your 2nd coming of your imaginary myth the son of Zeus.

C/P: "What does Logic have to do with Oral Tradition? " LOL Oral Tradition = the logic format which permits all generations to interpret the Written Torah employing this unique logic format which Moshe the prophet received by revelation at Sinai. Dude you compare to an ostrich with its head stuck into the sand.

C/p: "ethical holiness and ceremonial holiness". Empty worthless rhetoric. How does the Torah define holy? You can not honestly employ a Torah term without knowing how the Torah defines that term. Your 2 great commandments, For example, How does the Torah define both love and neighbor? You don't have the slightest clue. Love requires ownership, A person does not love that which he does not own. Neighbor - a person fit to marry a Jewish man's son or daughter. The Torah, Specifically in B'midbar and the later Book of Ezra, Forbids Jews marrying a shiksa/none Jewish woman. Baba Kama instructs that a person must pull something unto himself to acquire ownership. For example: if a man love a Jewish woman then he must pull within his heart her wants desires and dreams and make them his own.

C/P: "Okay so God is over the law he made and thus has the power to reform his law and also his law is for humans not him and so God wasn't breaking anything impregnating Mary. "

According to your narishkeit, God behaves as a total hypocrite. Bunk. Israel received only the first two commandments directly from the revelation of HaShem unto his Brit People. A brit, Like the one wherein HaShem and Avram cut a brit requires an oath. A vow a person can annul, Not so a Torah oath. Not even HaShem can annul a Torah oath. HaShem threatened to kill all Israel and Moshe reminded HaShem of the oath sworn to Avraham, Yitzak and Yaacov and the Torah teaches that HaShem did t'shuva!

When Balak hired Bil'am to curse Israel: HaShem put these words into Bil'am's mouth: HaShem is not a man that he should lie. The imaginary woman Mary, Pretending she was Jewish, Another man had acquired through k'dushin. For HaShem to impregnate her according to Torah law the child would exist as an illegitimate child forever excluded from the Jewish community. You declare that the messiah can violate the law of Moshe. Bunk. The prophet Shaul anointed king Shaul as Moshiach heir of Moshe the prophet, And HaShem commanded to the prophet that HE rejected Shaul as Moshiach, Heir of Moshe, B/c he failed to obey the commandments.

The burden of proof rests upon you to bring a Biblical precedent wherein a married woman impregnated by someone else that the Torah permits this illegitimate child as a kosher member of the Jewish community. No such precedent exists. The foreign alien Greek/Roman noise testament stands upon Greek mythology NOT Torah.

C/P: "Jesus is a descendant of David, Please read the genealogy of Christ. "

The genealogies within the Gospels contradict themselves. Christ is Greek for messiah! The model of king moshiach learns from the foundation of king Shaul/Saul. When the prophet Shmuel/Samuel anointed David as king, This dedication of moshiach, Heir of Moshe the law giver, Stands in the shadow of the anointing of Shaul as moshiach!

The Greek/Roman counterfeit noise testament can not change this fact. Instead it blatantly follows after Greek mythology rather that Torah law.

C/P: " I know what a middot etc". Total and complete narishkeit! Midda has the common translation as attribute. Middah literally means "measurement". A measurement by definition requires asystematic arrangement of Order. Like the Dewey Decimal System or the Metric System! Numbers get into mathematics. Logic stands upon the precision of mathematics.

Your attempt to quote Jewish sources, Its really rather funny. Quoting a Talmudic source requires that one can bring a precedent for that source. The Torah refers to this discipline as "understanding", Learning a matter from another matter! To learn this discipline requires a rabbi, You can not read a book and gain this wisdom.
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Mr. /Ms. Confusion

Have challenged you again.
Posted by primeministerJoshua812 3 years ago
primeministerJoshua812
My apologies to mosc I was not able to get back in time to refute him as I have been actively volunteering throughout the week at my Church's summer camps and so I was busy. If mosc would like to restart this debate than we can do so. Blessings.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Tuches, Yiddish for bottom, Joshua

What do rabbis do with leftover circumcisions? They sell them to f*gs for chewing gum.

What is the first sign of AIDS? Sharp pounding sensation in your tuches.
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