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The Contender
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Judaism needs Christianity to stand up under the Historical method

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primeministerJoshua812 has forfeited round #5.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/26/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 579 times Debate No: 117915
Debate Rounds (5)
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My Male/female opponent demands that Torah teaches history. Bunk. Torah, Written by men as a time date. The T'NaCH employs history as found in the Books of Kings and the Book words of the days translated as Chronicles in the vile Xtian 'old testament'; history exists as a wagon metaphor which transports the goods of moral instruction called mussar.

Mr. Ms confusion reveals his ignorance of comparative religions. He insists that only church dogma applies in making interpretations of the Bible worthless translations. Mr/ms: referred to a Mr. Confusion from here on, Insists that the Hebrew T'NaCH has manuscripts written in multiple languages. He only speaks English so this makes his declaration definative. . . NOT. Rabbi Yechuda HaNasi/the Prince/ codified the Mishna in about 210 CE. At that time the Torah had Hebrew Aramaic and Greek manuscripts.

Human beings live through time, So some Torah manuscripts have greater antiquity than other Torah manuscripts. Every synagogue reads a Safer Torah on shabbot. The vast majority of these Torah manuscripts - written by contemporary Soferim/scribes!

C/P: "textual criticism" requires logic. The Oral Torah logic system, Mr. Confusion does not know. Therefore mr. Confusion must rely upon alien foreign logic systems by which to interpret the Torah. Bah!

C/P: "The Musar movement is a Jewish ethical, Educational and cultural movement that developed in 19th century Lithuania, Particularly among Orthodox Lithuanian Jews. Not something we are talking about right now. "

Rabbi Israel Salanter emphasized the idea of Mussar in the late 19th century due to the over reach of the Lithuanian Jews or Litvaks over emphasis of pilpulism in Talmudic scholarship. But the Aggaditah of the Talmud and the great codes of Midrashim developed by the Gaonim scholars which predated the Reshonim scholars of the Middle Ages focused upon mussar. Rashi p'shat on the Chumash defines p'shat through Aggadita and Midrashim! The Book of Mishle/Proverbs its all about mussar! Its a gross error to declare mussar started in the late 19th century by Rabbi Israel Salanter!

C/P: "The writer of the gospel of John was obviously an eyewitness of the events of Christ's life since he speaks from a perspective of having been there during many of the events of Jesus' ministry and displays a good knowledge of Israeli geography and customs. "

Bunk. John was the last of the four gospels and by some authorities carbon dating his manuscript of the gospels was written in the 3rd or 4th century. Eye Witness. . . Total narishkeit! Mr. Confusion says an earlier manuscript exists written in 135, Hmmmmmmm a 100 years after the facts. The flaw of Xtianity and the fundamental reason that its a vile religion of idolatry, That it limits the Gods to 3 physical dimensions. Xtianity requires a physical historical jesus son of Zeus.

The physical evidence of the son of Zeus - a person could not write a descent obituary for this imaginary mythical man/god. Jesus and Hercules, The rape off spring of Zeus a mythical Greek God.

C/P: "But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events"
Logic requires consistency. Mr Confusion opens by insisting that Torah teaches history, But he ditches this bit-h, When his/her history whore no longer serves the interests of Mr. Confusion. The book of John a false witness account of an imaginary mythical man.

Mr. Confusion now presumes to define the faith of the Jewish people. He writes "The Torah is a history book for Ancient Israel unless you believe that every part of the Torah is ceremonial. " What utter and total arrogance! This dude knows nothing of Torah and how it functions as the foundation upon which stands all Talmudic scholarship. Yet this fool presumes that he can place all of Jewish scholarship, Which he has never studied, Into a nice convenient box. What a complete and utter fool.

C/P: "The basis for Christians morals are the two greatest commandments which are to Love the Lord your God with all your heart, Soul, Mind etc and to love your neighbor as yourself! "

The rhetoric BS is strong with this one, To paraphrase Darth Vader, One of the Gods of Star Wars. How does the Torah define the term "neighbor"? Your dead religion thinks the prophets addressed Goyim! Goyim do not qualify as a "neighbor". How does the Torah define the term "love"? Your noise testament does not know. It only repeats the word but do not ever even once attempt to define the term "love".

C/P: "Okay, So the oldest of this manuscripts dates back to around 100 A. D. Eyewitnesses of Christ would still have been alive at this time period either as a first or second generation. "

If this imaginary dude began his messiah career at 30 how old were the disciples? If they were new born babies by 100 CE. . . Dude get real. The average life span of people during that period, Most people lived up to their 50s! You rely upon false witness testimony. The Egypt Exploration Society has recently published a Greek papyrus that is likely the earliest fragment of the Gospel of Mark, Dating it from between A. D. 150"250. This none sense about a manuscript of Mark earlier than that, Only exists in fantasies and dreams.

Jews rule our homelands our exile has ended. The church which swore that Jews must walk the face of the earth as cursed despised exiles - utterly and totally false. The establishment of the Jewish state sent the church into cursed exile. Your church declared itself the 'new israel', Now its your turn to endure exile. You wait for your 2nd coming of your imaginary myth the son of Zeus.

C/P: "What does Logic have to do with Oral Tradition? " LOL Oral Tradition = the logic format which permits all generations to interpret the Written Torah employing this unique logic format which Moshe the prophet received by revelation at Sinai. Dude you compare to an ostrich with its head stuck into the sand.

C/p: "ethical holiness and ceremonial holiness". Empty worthless rhetoric. How does the Torah define holy? You can not honestly employ a Torah term without knowing how the Torah defines that term. Your 2 great commandments, For example, How does the Torah define both love and neighbor? You don't have the slightest clue. Love requires ownership, A person does not love that which he does not own. Neighbor - a person fit to marry a Jewish man's son or daughter. The Torah, Specifically in B'midbar and the later Book of Ezra, Forbids Jews marrying a shiksa/none Jewish woman. Baba Kama instructs that a person must pull something unto himself to acquire ownership. For example: if a man love a Jewish woman then he must pull within his heart her wants desires and dreams and make them his own.

C/P: "Okay so God is over the law he made and thus has the power to reform his law and also his law is for humans not him and so God wasn't breaking anything impregnating Mary. "

According to your narishkeit, God behaves as a total hypocrite. Bunk. Israel received only the first two commandments directly from the revelation of HaShem unto his Brit People. A brit, Like the one wherein HaShem and Avram cut a brit requires an oath. A vow a person can annul, Not so a Torah oath. Not even HaShem can annul a Torah oath. HaShem threatened to kill all Israel and Moshe reminded HaShem of the oath sworn to Avraham, Yitzak and Yaacov and the Torah teaches that HaShem did t'shuva!

When Balak hired Bil'am to curse Israel: HaShem put these words into Bil'am's mouth: HaShem is not a man that he should lie. The imaginary woman Mary, Pretending she was Jewish, Another man had acquired through k'dushin. For HaShem to impregnate her according to Torah law the child would exist as an illegitimate child forever excluded from the Jewish community. You declare that the messiah can violate the law of Moshe. Bunk. The prophet Shaul anointed king Shaul as Moshiach heir of Moshe the prophet, And HaShem commanded to the prophet that HE rejected Shaul as Moshiach, Heir of Moshe, B/c he failed to obey the commandments.

The burden of proof rests upon you to bring a Biblical precedent wherein a married woman impregnated by someone else that the Torah permits this illegitimate child as a kosher member of the Jewish community. No such precedent exists. The foreign alien Greek/Roman noise testament stands upon Greek mythology NOT Torah.

C/P: "Jesus is a descendant of David, Please read the genealogy of Christ. "

The genealogies within the Gospels contradict themselves. Christ is Greek for messiah! The model of king moshiach learns from the foundation of king Shaul/Saul. When the prophet Shmuel/Samuel anointed David as king, This dedication of moshiach, Heir of Moshe the law giver, Stands in the shadow of the anointing of Shaul as moshiach!

The Greek/Roman counterfeit noise testament can not change this fact. Instead it blatantly follows after Greek mythology rather that Torah law.

C/P: " I know what a middot etc". Total and complete narishkeit! Midda has the common translation as attribute. Middah literally means "measurement". A measurement by definition requires asystematic arrangement of Order. Like the Dewey Decimal System or the Metric System! Numbers get into mathematics. Logic stands upon the precision of mathematics.

Your attempt to quote Jewish sources, Its really rather funny. Quoting a Talmudic source requires that one can bring a precedent for that source. The Torah refers to this discipline as "understanding", Learning a matter from another matter! To learn this discipline requires a rabbi, You can not read a book and gain this wisdom.


Thanks to mosc for restarting this debate.

The Jewish T'nach acts as both a book of moral instruction and a recollection of the history of Ancient Israel prior to Roman invasion and occupation of Palestine. Do you really believe that none of the books in the T'nach have anything to do with the history of Israel?

I don't understand what you are getting at when you say I am ignorant in comparative religion. So try again with your explanation. I was saying that the New Testament manuscripts were written in multiple languages, Not the Jewish T'nach unless you recognize both the Old and New Testament as God's holy scripture.

What you said in your next paragraph is true even though it isn't really relevant to the context of this debate.

When interpreting the Torah and T'nach I will apply to the relevant verse the theological, Historical, Social, Cultural, And political context of the verse.

On the origin of The "Musar" Movement: The Musar movement arose among the non-Hasidic Orthodox Lithuanian Jews as a response to the social changes brought about by the Enlightenment and the corresponding Haskalah movement among many European Jews. In this period of history anti-Semitism, The assimilation of many Jews into Christianity, And the impoverished living conditions of many Jews in the Pale of Settlement caused severe tension and disappointment. Many of the institutions of Lithuanian Jewry were beginning to break up. Religious Jews feared that their way of life was slipping away from them, Observance of traditional Jewish law and custom was on the decline, And even those who remained loyal to the tradition were losing their emotional connection to its inner meaning and ethical core.

I have already addressed what you have said in regards to the reliability of the Book of John.

John was not focusing on history and I have argued that the T'nach is both a book of instruction surrounding ethics and a history book.

Your T'nach is my Old Testament so. Also, I hope the voters see how you make the assumption that I have never studied Judaism or the scholarship around it which is a blatant example of the fallacy of unwarranted assumption and in e way begging the question fallacy!

The context we seem to be discussing makes the neighbour your "fellow man" and Love a showing of mercy. This, By the way, Has nothing to do with the motion before us.

The Apostles age varied some have argued they were in their late teens other in their late twenties I think few would argue that the apostles were older than Jesus. After researching this greek papyrus on the Gospel of Mark and the Egypt Exploration Society I have realized something. This early manuscript is not the original and it is simply treated as an early copy, Not the literal document written by the literal Apostle. Here's some truth concerning the Gospel of Mark. Because of the reference to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE (Mark 13:2), Most scholars believe that the Gospel of Mark was written sometime during the war between Rome and the Jews (66-74). Most early dates fall around 65 CE and most late dates fall around 75 CE. Those who favour an earlier date argue that Mark's language indicates that the author knew that there would be serious trouble in the future but, Unlike Luke, Didn't know exactly what that trouble would entail. Of course, It wouldn"t have taken divinely inspired prophecy to guess that the Romans and Jews were on yet another collision course. Supporters of early dating also need to make sufficient room between Mark and the writing of Matthew and Luke, Both of which they also date early " as early as 80 or 85 CE. Conservative scholars who favor an early date often rely heavily upon a fragment of papyrus from Qumran. In a cave sealed in 68 CE was a piece of a text which is claimed to be an early version of Mark, Thus allowing Mark to be dated before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This fragment, Though, Is just one inch long and one inch wide. On it are five lines with nine good letters and one complete word " hardly a firm foundation upon which we can rest an early date for Mark.

Jews do rule your homeland. . . . Because of the Christian British Empire and the support from Christian America!

I interpret documents using the Laws of Logic and Thought not the Oral Tradition!

Holy means to be set apart at least to me and many Christians it does but what I have done here is taken the different types of holiness and ask you to choose one and then I shall define it!

Let me ask you a question? Does God have the power to revise his laws? If not why? Doesn't that get rid of the idea of an Omnipotent God?

On the genealogy of Christ Jesus, I quote J. Warner Wallace a detective who runs Cold Case Christianity: Minor Reasonable Contributing Factor:
Some theologians and scholars have noted that one of the authors may simply have been more interested in including members of Jesus" "legal" lineage who are related to him through "levirate marriage". Back in these days, If a man passed away without any sons, The man"s brother would marry the widow to produce a son who could carry on the original man"s name. The son could then be listed under the genealogy of his natural father or his legal father. This might explain why Joseph is listed as the son of Heli in Luke but the son of Jacob in Matthew. While this may explain some of the differences between genealogies, There are too many variances to trust this minor contributing factor as a comprehensive explanation.

Major Reasonable Contributing Factor:
A more likely contributing factor, In my view, Is the difference in the initial objectives of each author. Matthew appears to be writing to a Jewish audience. As a result, He begins his genealogy with characters familiar to Jews of the time (folks like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and places the genealogy at the start of his narrative. He quickly tries to connect Jesus to the overarching Jewish history leading up to the New Testament era. Luke, On the other hand, Seems to be more interested in a broader audience that includes Gentiles. His narrative begins by addressing Theophilus and he quickly connects the story of Jesus to the "days of Herod". Luke doesn"t even present the genealogy until after he first introduces Mary and the virgin conception of Jesus. For this reason, It is quite likely that Luke may be tracing the genealogy of Jesus through Mary rather than Joseph. This would explain why Luke traces Jesus back through David"s son Nathan (if he is in the line of Mary), While Matthew traces Jesus back through David"s son Solomon (in an effort to track the line of Joseph).

Christianity was formed as a messianic sect in Judaism until it was completely separated through the various pre-ecumenical and ecumenical councils

Your final comments are nonsense and have lost their privilege to a rebuttal.

Debate Round No. 1


Twice i have posted an argument and twice has that argument failed to get posted.
Debate Round No. 2


have posted a complaint with debate. Org but they have not contacted me.
Debate Round No. 3


Its clear that debate. Org has censored this debate. I posted my 3rd argument some 30 times over and over again and again. Sent messages to debate. Org and never once did they ever contact me.
Debate Round No. 4


I propose that we finish this crippled debate by starting it over again.

What title would you like to refer to this debate? That is if you agree to do the debate for the 3rd time?
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by primeministerJoshua812 3 years ago
mosc you make the new debate. You can refer to the current title to the new debate.
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