The Instigator
jrardin12
Pro (for)
The Contender
felixmendelssohn
Con (against)

Laws of Logic prove Biblical Creation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/20/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 597 times Debate No: 117806
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

jrardin12

Pro

1. Rational reasoning involves using the laws of logic. Therefore, A rational worldview must be able to account for the existence of such laws. As an example, Let"s just consider one of the laws of logic: the law of non-contradiction. This law states that any contradiction is false: you can"t have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship (where the letter A represents any claim). For example, The statement "My car is in the garage and it is not the case that my car is in the garage" is necessarily false by the law of non-contradiction. Any rational person would accept this law. "Why is this law true? Why should there be a law of non-contradiction, Or for that matter, Any laws of reasoning? "

2. Apart from the Bible, How could we know that contradictions are always false? We could only say that they have been false in our experience. But our experiences are very limited, And no one has experienced the future. So if someone asserted that he or she has @257;nally discovered two contradictory claims that are both true, The non-Christian has no basis for dismissing such an assertion. Only in a biblical worldview can we know that contradictions cannot occur in reality; only the Christian has a basis for the law of non-contradiction, Or laws of logic in general.

My view is that Laws of logic are God"s standard for thinking. Since God is an unchanging, Sovereign, Immaterial Being, His thoughts would necessarily be abstract, Universal, Invariant entities. In other words, They are not made of matter, They apply everywhere, And at all times. Laws of logic are contingent upon God"s unchanging nature. And they are a prerequisite for logical reasoning. Thus, Rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God.
felixmendelssohn

Con

1. Why should there be the law of non-contradiction? For survival purposes of course. Imagine if it is simultaneously true that there's a hungry lion behind you and there isn't a hungry lion behind you, What should you do? Should you run or should you not? You see, For A and ~A to be true at the same time would cause uncertainty in reasoning and a lot of times the ability to reason draws the line between life and dead.

2. "Apart from the Bible, How could we know that contradictions are always false? " === the chinese discovered pascal's triangle long before pascal ever did. You think the chinese progressed that far in mathematics without knowing the law of contradiction? And consider at that time, There's no concept of christianity in china. And also, Where did the bible lay down the 3 laws of logic? There are religions older than christianity and yet their texts still reflect rational thinking.

3. ". Since God is an unchanging, Sovereign, Immaterial Being, His thoughts would necessarily be abstract, Universal, Invariant entities. In other words, They are not made of matter, They apply everywhere, And at all times" === the thing is those claims about the nature of god are unverifiable. God, By the very definition, Cannot interact with our senses. There's no way we can measure or know anything about his property. We hardly know anything about what lies beyond the universe that we can observe and yet you think some misguided aristotelien analysis can reveal the nature of god? What lies beyond our MATERIAL universe? We dont know. Its not necessarily immaterial. What if its a different kind of material? The point being every claim you make about the nature of god is by nature unverifiable. But an unverifiable statement is just nonsense, I can claim theres an undetectable ghost hovering above your head, Causing headache. As long as theres no way to verify it, People won't give it a second thought

since you challenged me to this one, I expect you have some really stunning arguments
Debate Round No. 1
jrardin12

Pro

"Why should there be the law of non-contradiction? For survival purposes of course. " - Survival value does not equate to truth. My left arm has survival value, But we wouldn"t say that it is "true" or "false"; it simply is. So we would have no reason to think that the law of non-contradiction (or any law of logic) is true, If it is simply for survival purpose.

"the chinese discovered pascal's triangle long before pascal ever did. You think the chinese progressed that far in mathematics without knowing the law of contradiction? And consider at that time, There's no concept of Christianity in china. " - This fits in a Biblical worldview. The Chinese are from Noah who believed in the God of the Bible who is the source of logic.

"Where did the bible lay down the 3 laws of logic? " - The laws of logic do not have to be spelled out in the Bible for it to be Biblical. God is the source of logic and His Word is logical. The book of Proverbs shows that God is the source of knowledge.

"There are religions older than christianity and yet their texts still reflect rational thinking. " - Consider the polytheistic religions. If laws of logic are a re@258;ection of the way God thinks, Then which of the gods" thoughts should we follow? There cannot be a single universal set of laws of logic if there is more than one god. Therefore, No polytheistic religion can account for laws of logic.
Consider Allah, The god of Islam. Could laws of logic be a re@258;ection of the way Allah thinks? According to the Islamic doctrine of tanzih, Allah is so superior that nothing in human experience is comparable to him (Sura 42:11). But laws of logic are part of human experience " we use them all the time. Therefore, Laws of logic cannot relate to Allah and cannot be a re@258;ection of the way he thinks. So Islam also fails to provide a basis for the preconditions of intelligibility.

Actually God can interact with our senses. When I pray He listens and answers. Of course this requires one to be saved and to be right with Him in obedience to His laws. However, Now we are dealing with the spiritual part of man. We can know and understand God because of the Bible He has left us. God's thoughts are immaterial just like yours. God is not only a spirit, But He also became man therefore He is also material. However, This leads down a long path of explaining the Bible historically and spiritually.
felixmendelssohn

Con

1. Its funny how you disregard the entire argument and only respond to the intro sentence.
" Survival value does not equate to truth. " === hm. How about we believe the law of logic to be true because if we didn't, We couldn't have existed. The point being, Any society that believes otherwise would have cease to exist. Those laws certainly seem true to us because we evolve to believe that they are true.

"My left arm has survival value, But we wouldn"t say that it is "true" or "false"; it simply is. So we would have no reason to think that the law of non-contradiction (or any law of logic) is true, If it is simply for survival purpose. " ==== yup. We JUST are creatures that believe in the law of logic because our ancient friends who didn't, Died out.

2. "This fits in a Biblical worldview. The Chinese are from Noah who believed in the God of the Bible who is the source of logic. " === well, Christianity entered china around 7th century AD. However, There has been records of advanced mathematical progress in china since 500 BC. They developed theorems in geometry, Decimals, Negative numbers all without logic?

3. ""Where did the bible lay down the 3 laws of logic? " - The laws of logic do not have to be spelled out in the Bible for it to be Biblical. God is the source of logic and His Word is logical. The book of Proverbs shows that God is the source of knowledge. " ======= the laws does not have to be spelled out in the bible for it to be biblical. All it needs is you saying that "God is the source of logic and His Word is logical"?

4. " Consider the polytheistic religions. If laws of logic are a re@258;ection of the way God thinks, Then which of the gods" thoughts should we follow? " ===== just pick one god and follow just like how you disregard 5000 other gods and decide to follow the biblical god.

5. "Actually God can interact with our senses. When I pray He listens and answers. Of course this requires one to be saved and to be right with Him in obedience to His laws. However, Now we are dealing with the spiritual part of man. We can know and understand God because of the Bible He has left us. God's thoughts are immaterial just like yours. God is not only a spirit, But He also became man therefore He is also material. However, This leads down a long path of explaining the Bible historically and spiritually. " === as i said unverifiable statements are nonsensical. What of the 5 senses does god interact with us? Imagine how easily god could work his magic for the world to see, To erase all doubt for us to believe in him, To save those in india from eternal hell for worshiping different gods, And yet he hasn't done so.

6. " Allah is so superior that nothing in human experience is comparable to him (Sura 42:11). But laws of logic are part of human experience " we use them all the time. Therefore, Laws of logic cannot relate to Allah and cannot be a re@258;ection of the way he thinks. So Islam also fails to provide a basis for the preconditions of intelligibility. " ===== its amusing to me how you interpret another religion so literally but always try to find a figurative meaning when someone points out a nasty part or one that contradicts with reality in the bible.
Debate Round No. 2
jrardin12

Pro

I am with you on the idea that logic is good for survival purposes, But this does not explain the origin of the laws of logic. How did we acquire these laws which are truth? I have a good origin for the laws of logic - God.

Since Christianity is true therefore the story of Creation and Noah are true and the Chinese are created in God's image with the ability to use His laws of logic.

Polytheistic religions didn't just follow one god. Which is why polytheistic religions cannot not give a good reason for the origin of the laws of logic. Again, If laws of logic are a reaction of the way God thinks, Then which of the gods thoughts should we follow?

The Bible has no contradictions because it is logical and it is in the pattern of the way God thinks.
felixmendelssohn

Con

"How did we acquire these laws which are truth? I have a good origin for the laws of logic - God. ""=======we didn't acquire truths. We evolve to believe that they are TRUE and SHOULD BE Followed.

"Polytheistic religions didn't just follow one god. Which is why polytheistic religions cannot not give a good reason for the origin of the laws of logic" ===== there are monotheistic religions before christianity. I dont know why you should fixate on only the polytheistic one.

"Again, If laws of logic are a reaction of the way God thinks, Then which of the gods thoughts should we follow? " ==== well, There are about 5000 religions. Each gods have their own way of thinking. Then why do you stick to christianity's god way of thinking and not other gods?
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Classic idolatry: limits reality to 3 physical dimensions -- this sums up Im_Intelligent's last none sense statement to a tee.
Posted by Im_Intelligent 3 years ago
Im_Intelligent
Remember folks

God lives on top the mountain > oops they climbed the mountain?
God lives in the sky > What do you mean they built airplanes?
God lives in the heavens > what do you mean they invented telescopes?
God exists beyond space and time > direct bible citation? > nope

And remember if humanity ever conquers space and time, God will automatically be beyond that as well.

Saying god is beyond existence and logic is a cop-out
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
If god created anything according to a thought-out logical plan, Or, If God had a desire to create anything that wasn't pure random chaos, Then, God's thoughts must have been framed around logic. This logic allowed god to think and create, And, Gave motivation to God. Logic must have been the first cause; but if logic is a requirement for God and existed before God could create, Then God cannot be the First Cause, And therefore, Creator-god theism is false, And atheism is true.
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
And my foot to kick your as. .
Well. . . Laws of my logic. That proves my creation of my laws.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
noise. Torah instructs the spirituality of being a moral person.
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
The god of the bible createde swimming. It prove Biblical Creation.
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