The Instigator
Nartnod7875
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
WrickItRalph
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Loki is still alive

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/25/2019 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 862 times Debate No: 120489
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
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Nartnod7875

Pro

Loki, Prince of Asgard, Odinson, And the rightful ruler of Jotunheim still lives.

My purpose of posting this debate is purely for the fun of it. If there are any announcements or confirmations by the people at the MCU that contradict my claim, They will be dismissed in this debate for the sake of argument.

First round's acceptance.
WrickItRalph

Con

Sure, So since the burden of proof is one your. I ask you to

1. Define Loki in coherent terms.

And then.

2. Produce sound evidence that Loki exists in objective reality.

Then I will look into the whole ragnarak thing. Hail vahalla! I do admit that getting into paradise from dying in battle is an interesting system. I'm rootin for ya kid.
Debate Round No. 1
Nartnod7875

Pro

Thanks. And welcome to DEBATE. ORG

Now, There are a few parameters that need to be established:

1. The Loki that is being referred to is the one in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Not the one in the comics or in Norse mythology. (that's my definition of Loki)

2. Unless it is clearly and/or reasonably tied to the MCU, The mythos and lore surrounding the character known as Loki outside of the MCU cannot be used to support any of the arguments within this debate.

3. Any use of science and/or deep, Philosophical concepts to support an argument regarding this topic will not hold as much weight as other topics since we are talking about a movie franchise that leaves a lot of plotholes and is obviously based on fiction.

If you don't agree with these parameters, We can change them or set new ones in the comment section.

Assuming that you've watched Avengers: Infinity War, It is apparent that Thanos killed Loki at the start of the movie. Loki got close by pledging his allegiance to Thanos, He draws his dagger and tries to stab Thanos in the neck, And then Thanos stops him and strangles him to death. On the surface, It's quite clear that Loki died. But this just isn't the case, In my opinion. Here's why.

"Loki is the God of Mischief and as such is one to always think ahead and to be the great deciever. After all, This isn't the firs time he supposedly "died" in the movies. And while his feeble attempt at allying with Thanos and then betraying him right after sounds like something he would do, It barely does him any justice in terms of defining who he is in his last moments. If Loki were to go, I think he would've wanted to go with a bang or at least have the last laugh, Not get choked out while wriggling around pathetically. And speaking of his designation, Loki has the powers to back it up and, More importantly, To avoid his demise:
- Being a Frost Giant, Loki has superhuman traits (this will be important later) and had no problem in fighting guys like Captain America.
-He is a master of magic and illusions
>he can conjure transparent, Intangible copies of himself and also porject them across large distances.
>he can change his voice, Attire, And entire physical appearance as well as other people (this is also important). He did this in Thor: The Dark World when he made Thor look like Lady Sif, A female Asgardian warrior. Can turn into a snake. Can make himself look dead (also important).
>he can manipulate the minds of others. His feats include mind control, Accessing a person's memories (this is important), , And making people speak his exact words.
>he can conjure objects out of thin air.
>he can move objects with his mind, An ability commonly known as telekinesis.
"Another point that is integral to my argument is Bruce Banner aka The Hulk, Who is directly linked to Loki's survival.
-Aforementioned, Loki has the power of illusions. So my claim is that the person who was killed by Thanos was not actually Loki, But someone who Loki used as a diversion. MEANWHILE, Loki disguised himself as The Hulk.
>Loki changed the appearance of an unkown individual, Most likely an Asgardian, And controlled that person into doing what he wanted him to do.
>There was something terribly wrong with the fight between Hulk and Thanos. Hulk is around 8 ft. Tall and Thanos is 6 ft. 7 in. . Hulk is the strongest character in the MCU and he was beaten by Thanos in under a minute. The reason being is that it wasn't really Hulk, But Loki disguising himself as The Hulk which is why he lost to Thanos but was also able to put up a bit of a fight.
-If you watch Thor: Ragnarok and Infinity War, There are several inconsistencies with Ruffalo's character.
>It is safe to say that Bruce has NO idea what's going on when The Hulk is unleashed. This is evident when The Hulk transformed back into Bruce and Bruce was extremely bewildered and confused about where he was, What happened, And what point in time he was in. In Infinity War, Bruce talked to Tony about Thanos and the Infinity Stones, Something that he couldn't possibly have known about because he had to turn back into The Hulk towards the end of Thor: Ragnarok. But you know who did? Loki.
>Bruce didn't ever turn into The Hulk to help out in Infinity War. He didn't because he was Loki and Loki didn't want to blow his cover.

There are some more details that I have to share, But I'll save it for later.
WrickItRalph

Con

Well, Sorry to burst your bubble, But You didn't make that clear and your comment about MCU in the beginning led me to believe that opposite. Why would you not take evidence from MCU if you ONLY want to talk about MCU. That's just framing the debate so that nobody can every prove you wrong. 1) Only proofs from MCU 2) contradictions from MCU will be dismissed C) Cannot be disproven.

anywho I'm forced to concede because I don't watch the newer marvel movies. I apologize for the confusion. Sincerely.
Debate Round No. 2
Nartnod7875

Pro

Nartnod7875 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Nartnod7875

Pro

Nartnod7875 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
First of all, The Green Arrow is in the DC universe and Thor is in the Marvel universe. Second of all, No. Just no.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
Not every character has to have a niche per se. That comes down to the whims of the writers. Look at DBZ/DBS. Vegeta gets crapped on consistently through the whole thing when they already had a bunch of people to get crapped on. It's actually more realistic to have characters with overlapping niches because this is what happens in real life.
Posted by Nartnod7875 3 years ago
Nartnod7875
Yeah, It's more about storytelling really. Besides, If Thor IS the strongest of the Avengers, What is Hulk's worth now? Are the producers and directors going to be shining the spotlight on Bruce, Now? That sounds boring. We already have a smart guy. It seems like Hulk is becoming less and less important in the franchise. What do you think?
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
Eh, Movie strength is inconsistent. I don't want to get in a full argument.
Posted by WrickItRalph 3 years ago
WrickItRalph
Thor is weak. I bet the Green Arrow could take him out. :)
Posted by Nartnod7875 3 years ago
Nartnod7875
MatPat's comment that Thor completely destroyed Hulk is inconsequential. It's a measure of raw strength and Thor was using Mjolnir when he was "completely destroying" Hulk so that doesn't count.
Posted by Nartnod7875 3 years ago
Nartnod7875
Stan Lee (RIP) is a highly revered and does have authority on the subject, But his quote, "I would say Thor because strong as Hulk is, He's still a mortal. But Thor is one of the Norse Gods. " But just because he created the characters and was an OG, Even Stan couldn't have knowledge on them, Especially if he hadn't kept track on how they changed over time in the comics. I mean, He's just pulled out some nouns and adjectives and didn't going into detail on who truly is stronger.
Posted by Nartnod7875 3 years ago
Nartnod7875
The Film/Game Theorists have an entertaining channel, But they've been debunked numerous times by other Youtubers, So with all due respect, They're not that credible.

How do we know if that force of 3, 768, 000 was Hulk's limit, Though? I know what scene you're talking about. The one where Thor and Iron Man met for the first time. Thor DID crush Iron Man's armored arm and I bet they identified the kind of metal the armor was and how much force it takes to crush it. But do you think that Thor would be able to contend with the Hulk Buster suit, Not even the one in Infinity War, Without his powers or Stormbreaker?
And you gotta remeber the scene in the exact same movie where Thor needed both of his arms to block Hulk's downward smash in the SHIELD helicarrier. And the scene in Ragnarok where Hulk stopped Thor's double handed hammer strike after Thor had a running start AND jumped into the air.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
Take this link
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=8cpfR8QaDvw
If the spaces are wonky, Sorry about that. Alternatively, Search "Film Theory: Is Thor STRONGER Than The Hulk? (Thor: Ragnarok)" and it should be the first result.
In this video, MatPat concludes that Hulk is stronger because he exerts 3, 768, 000 pounds of force. Thor's greatest act of strength in the MCU, Crushing the arm of Ironman's suit, Takes 3, 456, 000 pounds of force. However, While Hulk's action was using his entire body, Thor used ONLY HIS ONE HAND. Yet, He had a relatively close number to Hulk's total strength. Thus, I conclude that Thor is stronger.
Posted by Nartnod7875 3 years ago
Nartnod7875
How so? I mean, Its true Thor currently is the most powerful character after getting Stormbreaker and beating Thanos with it. And yeah, He did kick Hulk's hind when they fought eachother in Sakaar, But I think him using the lightning was him being being more powerful, Not stronger than Hulk. I think that before Thor got Stormbreaker, And maybe even after, Hulk still is as strong as Thor, If not stronger. According to the comics, His strength is only limited by his level of anger and rage.

Yeah, I also don't like Loki being dead. Even rhough he killed a bunch of innocent people on earth, He was really starting to redeem himself.
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