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The Contender
Con (against)
3 Points

Makashi is the best of the seven forms of lightsaber combat as recognised by the jedi order.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/19/2018 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,923 times Debate No: 110782
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)




In this debate my opponent should argue that a specific form is better then makashi (shii sho, soresu, ataru, djem so, shein, niman or juyo/vapaad (please note that shein and djem so are both referred to as form 5))

Makashi is the best of the seven forms because it is designed specifically for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and has no major weaknesses.


Thanks to Pro for the debate, and for his patience.


I will be defending Vaapad, a subset of Juyo, as the "best of the seven forms of lightsaber combat." Vaapad is a form of lightsaber combat which seeks to harness the energy of the opponent in order to redirect that fury back at them. This characteristic of Vaapad produced a rather intriguing advantage to the form. The use of Vaapad allowed the practitioner to redirect force lightning back at its issuer. Mace Windu, the foremost Vaapad expert, demonstrated this technique in his battle with Sidious, redirecting Sidious's lightning back at him, deforming the Sith Lord. [1, 2]

Vaapad movements occur at a high enough speed to be invisible to the naked eye and transition smoothly from one strike to another. [3] This combination of speed and fluidity allows lightsaber to become, in effect, it's own blinding lightshow that can disorient opponents.

Vaapad, as a form of Juyo, also has several other benefits. For example, "Juyo users were proficient in a technique called 'Assured Strike,' wherein they traded sheer power for a near-certainty of landing a hit. Another technique they used was referred to as 'Vornskr's Ferocity,' which involved 'ferocious' attacking of an opponent...Those skilled in the Vaapad form were known for their use of the 'Swift Flank' technique, where they leaped or dashed around an opponent to make a quick strike. The speed of the maneuver was intended to catch opponents off guard." [3]

Vaapad is also designed specifically for lightsaber vs. lightsaber combat: "it was designed for such a purpose in one-on-one lightsaber duels." [3] Though, ultimately, Vaapad proved more versatile than Makashi, enabling practitioners like Windu to fare well in head-to-head combat against a wide array of adversaries, fighting styles, and weapons.


Makashi suffers from several fairly clear flaws. The first of these flaws is that, because of its overwhelming focus on lightsaber dueling, practitioners were unable to adequately defend against blasters and other kinds of weapons. This flaw drove the form into "eventual obsolescence." [4]

Additionally, "the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its inability to generate kinetic energy in its application; the focus on precision and blade control hampered an adherent's ability to generate momentum in both offensive and defensive maneuvers. This meant that a duelist who possessed a sufficient level of physical strength could potentially overwhelm a Makashi practitioner, shunting aside strikes from the form's precision offense and simply bashing through it's evasive, footwork-oriented defense. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength." [4] Given that Vaapad and Juyo place enormous importance on power and strength, it seems that the Makashi form would be an ineffective response to these forms.


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Debate Round No. 1


(Please excuse run-on sentences and other gramatic things it's very difficult to build a cohesive argument on a cell-phone)

My opponent makes some great points when it comes to vaapad, it has amazing speed and strength and can use an enemies rage against them but what he ignores is the reason vaapad was banned by mace windu, its creator, for learning. Mace windu banned the practice of vaapad because it required a constant flow of force energy, an amount of energy that the light side cannot create, in order ti properly weild vaapad its user must access the dark side of the force to be used, as remarked by count dooku, unless it is weilded by a sith, vaapad is clunky and weak. Though it may seem that using the dark side of the force is only to empower the force, an unnecessary addition to the form, the form was actually designed with using the dark side in mind, mace windu created the form with the goal of utilizing the dark side within him. The only way a user can use the form without succumbing to the dark side is to hold back, to intentionally weaken your strikes and movements and even still vaapad is likely to pull jedi to the dark side one notable example of this would be mace windu himself. Though not expressly stated it is in my own opinion that during his battle against darth sidious mace windu fell to the dark side, as stated within my opponents 2nd source after cornering darth sidious anakin told windu to not kill sidious but to bring him before the council to answer for his crimes but mace windu blinded by his rage and the dark side tries to reason why sidious deserved to die saying that sidious was too powerful after reflecting sidious' lightning volley windu went to strike his killing blow but anakin stops windu before windu crossed a path he could not return from.

Now then when he spoke of makashi I noted numerous flaws first he stated makashi held no momentum but makashi form surrounds constant movement in the blade weilders of makashi would immediately start performing a chain of orbitals, these orbitals would give them a notable amount of momentum and plenty of power into their strikes. Secondly, a more hands on power based form would not be notably affective against makashi, makashi's defense is based on nimble footwork parries and dodges and when a power based form, like djem so, would pull a massive strike makashi would just dodge out of the way and and quickly strike at the now remarkably open target. Finally, my opponent claimed that because of its natural focus lightsaber vs lightsaber makes its inevitably fall out of favor but makashi's focus on dodging and nimble footwork means its weilders can easily move out of the way of the blasts and remove whatever distance was between the weilder and the marksman.


Thanks to Pro for his response.


Vaapad requires individuals to channel the energy of an opponent and to redirect that energy (whether kinetic, mental, or force) back at the adversary. The technique requires the exercise of controlled passion. Vaapad does not require the use of the dark side to be highly effective, either. In his duel against Sidious, it is reasonable to conclude that Windu was able to defeat his adversary (a far more powerful opponent than Dooku) without falling from the light side himself. [5] Pro's argument, therefore, that Vaapad requires the use of the Dark Side to be anything other than "clunky and weak," is clearly absurd on it's face. If anything, Dooku, the source of Pro's quote, is an unreliable narrator who is notoriously overconfident in his own abilities and dismissive of others.

Pro makes a fairly baseless assertion than Windu fell to the Dark Side in his battle with Sidious. There are several reasons to disbelieve Pro's claim here. The first reason is that Windu has an excellent trackrecord of restraint, even in battles which were major tests of his ability to hold back. For example: "Windu discovered that the only way he could survive...was to give all of himself to Vaapad, but realized that if he did, he would fall to the dark side as well. Turning away from the dark side, Windu conceded the fight, purposely opening himself up for Billaba's killing strike." [3] Windu demonstrated a commitment to die rather than to fall.

The second reason, is that Windu's actions were entirely logical ones to take. He had not realized the scope of Sidious's power until the duel, and he understood that if Sidious were allowed to live, he would pose an existential threat to all. [2] This was later a conclusion reached by Yoda, who of course never fell to the dark side. So, there is no reason to believe that Windu's logical train of thought was somehow evidence of him having fallen.

Finally, it seems highly implausible that a Dark Side Windu would have, as he did, argue that "the oppression of the Sith will never return." [6] Even as he fought Sidious, Windu advocated the light.

It should also be noted that nowhere in my second sources does it state that Windu was "blinded by his rage and the dark side." This is an inference Pro himself draws and which is logically problematic for the reasons I just gave.

But let's be clear: Pro's whole argument against Vaapad boils down to the notion that it invariably causes people to fall into darkness. Firstly, Pro drops all the benefits of Vaapad which I cited in order to focus on this tangential disad. Second, it's not actually clear that the "best form of lightsaber combat" is one which keeps you in the light. Makashi, for example, is practiced extensively by Dooku, a Sith Lord, yet Pro argues for this form. [4] As long as the form is recognized by the Jedi order, it does not seem relevant to the topic whether it the form is light or dark, only whether it is effective in combat.


Makashi requires constant movement, but that movement is gentle and highly controlled. It's not the kind of movement designed to create high levels of kinetic force. It's the difference between ballet and break dancing. You will notice in the video of Dooku's fight with Anakin and Obi Wan, that Dooku employs graceful movements instead of the kind of hard-hitting punches that Anakin counters with in the last part of their duel; it is ultimately these kinds of very forceful, staccato strokes (Juyo) which allowed Anakin to to pierce Dooku's defenses. [7]

My opponent's second defense against my reply literally contradicts source material, which my opponent should not be able to get away with. That source material is literally what is the case in the Star Wars universe; my opponent cannot just magically make that go away. But even if you believe Pro can just ignore source material so blatantly, the notion that you can just dodge out of the way ignores the speed at which Vaapad movements occur and ignores the fact that it's not as if your opponent is not nimble either. You don't exactly need to be an expert in footwork to turn and parry.

My opponent, on the question of blaster bolts, seems to conflate nimbleness with brute speed. I can be nimble but still suck at running marathons; they're different kinds of speeds at play. Vaapad has the kind of speed which would allow the practitioner to close gaps between the swordsman and the marksman, not Makashi. Pro hasn't even done anything to show us that Makashi is fast in the first place; he just assumes that fancy, prancing footwork equates to speed, which is a dubious assumption at best. And, you cannot just doge a hail of blaster fire with footwork. You're body is literally too large for you to do that in a combat situation when faced with multiple shooters of reasonable accuracy. The source material literally says that Makashi was pushed into virtual obsolescense because of this inaquacy. My opponent cannot just pretend that this didn't happen and that Makashi is just fine at dealing with blaster-armed opponents. Obviously, it was NOT just fine at doing that, and so quickly became outmoded.

Ultimately, though, Pro has yet to offer any real reason to buy into Makashi. His round one case was basically a single sentence. He needs to do more work to justify his position if he is to meet his BOP.


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Debate Round No. 2


Let me start this off by saying that the goal of this debate wasn't to spread misinformation and in my haste to what I understood as logical fallacies I failed to read over your final source. Now to clear things up I never argued that makashi was as fast as vaapad what I argued was that a makashi user, because their defensive strategy consists of dodges and parries, could feasibly close a gap between them and a lone or small condensed group of gunman, but because of the increasing rarity of lightsaber wielding opponents I do agree that makashi falling out of fashion makes sense. In the effort for total clarity, to give the voters on this debate all the information they need to accurately place their votes, it needs to be said that source three, the source stating everything on vaapad, is almost entirely non canon and the canon version only notes that form 7, vaapad, is named juyo or vaapad and that it was the most aggressive and unpredictable of the seven forms. That means almost everything stated by my opponent about vaapad cannot be canonically proven, if my opponent wishes to keep this as evidence of it being the better form then we have to create another debate for I can't fit all of the newly accessible evidence into one argument (I only just realized his evidence is non canon).

Now then lets talk about the force, so there are a lot of misconceptions about the force for one there is only one force, not two, the dark side and light side are just two, well... sides, for ease of explanation I'll refer to the light side as the side of control and the dark side as the side of power. Now on one side of the force spectrum we have the side of power and on the other, the side of control, now many assume that if you wield the dark side then you're a sith and if you wield the light your a Jedi, but that's not the case, splitting the force into to two like many do or stretching it into a line doesn't work often times it's a mix of power and control that makes the most deadly of force wielders most of the time their force capabilities are generalized to one side, now you may argue that if you use the "dark side" your a sith but that's not the case in fact in star wars the old republic if you take the dark side route encounter the remains of a sith lord who's holographic projection asks you to spread the message that using the "light side" could be beneficial, as a sith you have to decide wether to spread the word or destroy it, in any case, this just shows that the dark side is not intrinsically linked with sith, same goes for jedi ( that was more or less a rant to educate and defend my theory on mace windu, he could have fallen to the "dark side" under the quise of ending the sith, you do not have to be a sith to wield the "dark side").

I'd like to note that my coverage of makashi has been less than adequate up until now, so instead of just giving a list of pros for makashi let me give a rundown on the form.

Makashi is the second form of lightsaber combat it was created because shii sho (form 1) was inadequate at fighting lightsaber to lightsaber, makashi was designed specifically for lightsaber vs lightsaber combat when viewed many people stated it was dance like because of the elegant footwork and constantly moving blade. Wielders of makashi often moved in straight forwards and backwards movements and tended to focus on balance (keeping yours and making your opponents lose theirs). Makashi focused on precision choosing to strike accurately instead of using brute strength (djem so) or fast movement (Ataru) (while my opponent claims that vaapad strikes hard and fast, there is no canon evidence of this, in fact, if you watched the battle between Sidious and Mace Windu you'll note that Windu's strikes aren't very fast at all, instead his speed seemed to mostly match Sidious' movement speed, also if you watch the video when Windu first cornered sidious he planned to arrest him but after barely deflecting sidious' lightning volley, likely requiuring he feed on more power letting loose his passion and being over come with hatred thinking of all the horrible things sidious had done ultamately overtaking him leaving windu to go against the jedi way (this is a personal theory and seeing as we have given way for the form to be wielded on either "side" of the force this holds little ground on the debate at hand). Now while some claim that makashi is just fancy prancy footwork, if you consider how makashi is so often compared to fencing you'll see how useful it is. Makashi is often wielded with one hand allowing the wielder greater range of motion and reach so that they may strike where ever need be. The curved hilt was designed to specifically go with makashi, its ergonomic design allowed it to fit in the palm better giving wielders a better grip and allowed the wielder to adjust their grip on the handle and change where the blade was coming from adding a layer of unpredictability into the wielders arsenal.

Now, this is the part where my makashi bias is most evident. My opponent claims that, because makashi fell out of fashion, it isn't the best form but the only reason it disappeared at all was because the use of lightsabers, in general, was disappearing now some forms may be able to survive a little longer than makashi but it wouldn't be long until the rest of the forms disappeared as the lightsaber itself inevitably goes the way of the dodo. After watching over the fight between Sidious and Windu I can further state that there is no evidence of vaapad giving the wielder the blinding speed and strength my opponent claims and only further promotes that a strong dueling form that can last long battles would have the ability to keep up with this so-called "super form", the reason Sidious was unable to defeat Windu on his own was not because vaapad is the best form but because Ataru, the form Sidious was evidently wielding, is not meant for sustained combat. Commonly a wielder of Ataru would try to end the combat quick for it is difficult to sustain the way Ataru users manipulate the force (they use it to strengthen their body to allow them to fight through injuries or even old age). Furthermore, a lot of my points in earlier arguments didn't seem to have much evidence backing them, but that is because I myself am that evidence. While I don't as of right now participate in Ludosport (the international sport of lightsaber fighting) I do practice lightsaber dueling with. Aprofesional grade lightsaber (saberforge) and I am a practitioner of makashi I have wielded it to great success against numerous opponents wielding a variety of forms in free-form combat and I would like to note that I have never struggled keep up with any form as of yet, the constant motion of the blade has allowed me to attack with acceptable strength and speed and dodge techniques have allowed me to not only survive but surpass forms which relied on either brute force or speed and even if vaapad was everything that is said about it, I hold no doubts about my ability to handle anyone wielding it. Finally, Dooku was not defeated because of the "forceful, staccato strokes" that defeated Dooku, Dooku was defeated because Anakin and Obi-Wan started the fight taking basic combat stances and then changing forms to their higher level forms (Djem So and Soresu) surprising Dooku to the point in which he was unprepared for those "forceful, staccato strokes" not to mention there were two Jedi there versus the lone sith and Anakin and Obi-Wan still only just defeated Dooku (having to rely on the form switch I noted above).

you may say that the argument never only asked which form was the best not which form was the best in the canonical sense but it's quite blatant that this debate is supposed to be set within the canon of star wars otherwise we could just say whatever we wanted and be technically correct. not to mention your argument bashes me for "contradicting the lore".


Thanks to Pro for the debate.


Pro basically begins his final speech by saying that he failed to do his due diligence last round in terms of understanding the source material, resulting in him presenting arguments that were false and/or non-canonical. This admission, of course, seriously undermines everything Pro has said up until this point, because it is clear Pro was spitballing rather than making fact-based arguments.

As for the claim that my source on Vaapad is non-canon, Pro misunderstands why Wookieepedia has two separate pages, which requires a bit of explanation on my part. When Disney bought the franchise, it stipulated that all material from the Extended Universe became non-canon, to make room for a new chronology based on the new movies that Disney would make. This meant that Wookieepedia, the online wiki, had to essentially re-write or re-classify it's entire database of articles. Much of this re-writing is still taking place (and is burdened by the fact that they are writing additional, new articles to keep pace with the new canon, including books, TV shows, and movies, that Disney is producing), and hasty substitutes were used to fill gaps until articles could be fleshed out. Much of the old canon is being re-canonized in order to please fans who had come to love certain aspects of the old canon and also to provide logical context for things occurring in the new canon. For example, Thrawn, who had been removed from the canon, was subsequently brought back by Disney. The constant, in-flux nature of the canon makes it difficult to discern what, before Disney purchased LucasFilm, has remained canon, so it's a bit misleading for Pro to make the kind of absolutist claims he does. Certainly, the grey area here is expansive.

Pro claims that the Vaapad article I cited is "almost entirely non canon." This is false. Since much of the material included in the article is not from the Extended Universe, the information remains canon even though it has not be transferred yet to the canon wiki. For example, the claim that Vaapad can redirect energy, including and particularly Force Lightning, comes from the movies and the still-canon book versions of those movies [3]. Had Pro made this argument earlier, I could have clarified this earlier. Instead, Pro chose to make a new argument (generally not allowed in debates) in his final speech, leaving me this one opportunity to clarify the issue.

Ultimately though, there are three reasons to reject Pro's argument here: (1) it was new in his last speech, (2) Pro's assertion does not apply to all of the information I used in my case, and (3) Pro already conceded (in round 3), that Vaapad was faster than Makashi and that Makashi was falling into obsolescence. Whether or not these concede points are canon is irrelevant insofar as Pro's concessions make them true in the context of this debate.

Pro's discourse on the force is interesting, but it's not clear what impact it has on the round. How does any of what Pro said in that paragraph support why Makashi or Vaapad is a better or worse form of lightsaber combat? Pro never makes the answer to this question clear, so everything he said there can be disregarded for this purposes of adjudicating this debate.


Pro makes the following statement: "if you watched the battle between Sidious and Mace Windu you'll note that Windu's strikes aren't very fast at all, instead his speed seemed to mostly match Sidious' movement speed." The reason for this is cinematographic. It was not possible to speed up the movements of these actors while still keeping intact the ability of the audience to follow the action of the duel. In other words, the action sequence was deliberately kept at a viewable pace in order so that, could be viewed. Pro must make allowances in the movies for the realities of filming a movie for popular release, while working with real-life, non-animated actors.

In the novel, which remains canon, it was noted that indeed Windu was moving at speeds which made it virtually impossible to watch with the naked eye: "While observing the duel between Darth Sidious and Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker considered Windu's Vaapad bladework to be 'an oblate sphere of purple fire' which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle." [3] So yes, there is definitely canonical evidence of the speed and ferocity of Vaapad's attacks.

My opponent's claim that he himself is evidence is entirely absurd and unfair, because there's no way for anyone to verify these claims before the debate concludes, and my opponent, however good he might be at sword-fighting, is not a canon star wars text, he is a person who is trying to win a debate, and so clearly has a bias in the information he is presenting. My opponent makes a TON of claims which require him to cite sources, but he never actually does cite any sources.

Pro writes: "Dooku was not defeated because of the 'forceful, staccato strokes'...Dooku was defeated because Anakin and Obi-Wan started the fight taking basic combat stances and then changing forms to...Djem So and Soresu...not to mention there were two Jedi there versus the lone sith." There are several problems with Pro's analysis here. First, djem so, which Pro claims was used by the Jedi, is primarily a form to defend against blaster bolts. [8] This form was never applied against Dooku himself in that combat sequence. The use of Soresu, an exclusively defensive form designed to outlast and opponet, is also dubious, since both Obi Wan and Anakin would have been motivated to quickly rescue the Chancellor and escape, before reinforcements could arrive to stop their egress [9]. Moreover, both Obi Wan and Anakin clearly were trying to engage offensively with Dooku during their bought. In other words, there is no evidence that Obi Wan and Anakin were changing forms at all. [7] Second, Dooku had already eliminated Obi Wan from the battle when Anakin defeated him using the forceful, stacco strokes I identified (these kinds of strokes are the hallmarks of Vaapad and Juyo). So, Dooku was effectively eliminated in one-on-one combat, since Obi Wan was out of the fight when Anakin and Dooku went head-to-head.


Pro dropped a ton of arguments in this debate.

Pro never responds to the three reasons I gave (in round 2) for why Windu never fell to the dark side. Pro repeats his original claim that Windu fell in round 3, but he never does anything to respond to these specific and compelling objections to that original claim.

Pro dropped that it doesn't matter whether or not Windu fell to the dark side, because that has no bearing on whether or not Vaapad is an effective form of lightsaber combat (at most, it is relevant to whether a Jedi should use it, but that is a separate question altogether).

Pro dropped that Makashi is "not the kind of movement designed to create high levels of kinetic force" and that Makashi struggles to work against blasters.


Ultimately, makashi is a one-trick pony. Pro loves it because it has helped him win his Ludosport duels, which is great. But in a Star Wars universe where more people use blasters than lightsabers, Makashi is woefully inadequate. Insofar as Windu was able to defeat Sidious in combat, Vaapad is clearly also effective in lightsaber combat, but without the same disadvantages as regards blasters. Makashi lacks the speed and ferocity of Vaapad, and, unlike Vaapad, cannot redirect Force Lightning. Therefore, Vaapad is a better form of lightsaber combat than Makashi. Finally, Pro's utter lack of sources and the new arguments in his final speech should be counted against him. Please Vote Con.


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Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by bsh7000 3 years ago
Thanks for voting, Whiteflame.
Posted by KN0W174LL 3 years ago
Sorry bsh got a bit carried away, the comments were there to set straight a few facts in the star wars universe (thats why I said at the top of the main comment "don't take this into account in when voting"l, but I just ended up continuing to argue again these comments are after the fact and shouldn't be taken into account when voting.
Posted by bsh7000 3 years ago
Know, this is super inappropriate.

Besides, you have some basic facts wrong in your comments. Litigating the debate after the debate like that isn"t cool.
Posted by KN0W174LL 3 years ago
10. Anakin at the time was a known practitioner of djem so during the fight (please correct me if I'm wrong) it is unlikely that the "forceful staccato strokes" were of juyo in nature seeing as at the time juyo was a banned form for how easily it corrupted its wielders and seeing as the jedi council constantly feared that anakin would turn to the dark side there is no way that they would let him learn juyon (again I haven't read any of the novels or comics so if this is contradictory and the council did let him learn juyo please let me know I seriously doubt it but anythings possible
Posted by KN0W174LL 3 years ago
Okay so this is not an argument it should not be taken into account but I have to clarify a few things
1. The paragraph I did on the force as I had previously stated was entirely concerning the three points on mace windu
2. Djem so is a very aggresive very physical form which was designed in conjunction with ataru as a response to soresu's lack of offensive capabilities when my opponent stated that it was a form designed for deflecting blasters he likely confused it with the other variant of form 5, shein
3. I did revisit the sweeping movements when I went over makashi as a whole
4. I expressly stated I did not take part in ludo sport I practice on my own and if necessary I can take a picture of my blade
5. Just because disney states that they will be recanonizing some of the extented universe it does not mean you can use all of it as evidence
6. Admission that vaapad is faster is not admission of superiority and when i admitted that makashi did fall out of style I followed it up with an explanation of why that doesn't matter
7. I haven't cited my sources because I am typing on a phone and thus if I can input links it is a serious pain, to account for this I spent a lot of my time using my opponents my main source of informatikn is the Wookieepedia and my own memory for I have an entire presentaion explaining the seven forms
8. If you had seen that battle especially if you understood opening stances you would have seen just how basic obi wans and anakins opening stances
9. It is (or should be) common knowledge that obi wan was a practitioner of soresu to the point in which many jedi called obi wan the "master if soresu" obi wan chose to learn soresu because when quigon died at the hands of darth maul obi wan realised that the form he had been using (ataru) was horrible defensively

Those are all the points I could think of as of right now so if I think of more I will add on to this comment
Posted by KN0W174LL 3 years ago
On my final argument, I ran out of characters XD
Posted by bsh1 3 years ago
Done :)
Posted by bsh7000 3 years ago
Of no one accepts this by tomorrow, I might.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 3 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro ends up providing scant little to support his position beyond assertion. While some valid argumentation is visited on his end, he spends too little time examining what makes Makashi an effective form of lightsaber combat, and generally does a poor job of addressing key arguments from Con. Particularly damaging is the argument that Makashi has been phased out due to its inability to address ranged combat. While Con's argument may indeed bear flaws, it seems as though Pro's rebuttals to Con's choice of Vaapad are largely dismissive on the periphery of his argument without ever really addressing the meat. Much of his arguments still stand, particularly with regards to its speed and strength as a method with little to no drawbacks. While this may still be an open question, it's clear that within this debate, Con does the better job supporting his form as the best compared with Makashi.

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