The Instigator
chesnagamble
Pro (for)
The Contender
Wizofoz
Con (against)

Meaning, purpose, and value cannot be filled without God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 465 times Debate No: 111217
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (9)
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chesnagamble

Pro

Let's start with the syllogism:
1.Without God, there cannot be objective meaning, purpose, or value in life
2. God exists
3. Therefore, there is objective meaning, purpose, or values in our lives.

Let's define meaning, purpose, and value. Meaning has to do with significance, why something matters. Value has to do with good and evil, right and wrong. Purpose has to do with a goal, the reason for something.

Without objective meaning, no one's reason can be better than someone else's reason. There would be no reason to applaud Mother Teresa's reason and condemn Hitler's reasons. Without value, there would be no moral difference between the actions of Mother Teresa and Hitler. There would be no way or reason to determine what's right and wrong. Furthermore, the universe doesn't have a purpose. It's continuing on and eventually, all the energy will be used up and it will die. If the universe has no purpose than our individual lives have no purpose. So why would we spend time trying to achieve great things?

If you wanted to avoid the conclusion that you need a God to have meaning, value, and purpose, you could argue:
1. If God does not exist, there cannot be any objective purpose, meaning, or value in our lives.
2. God does not exist.
3. Therefore, there is no objective meaning, purpose, or values in our lives.
Wizofoz

Con

I will frame my argument in three ways-

Firstly, I will largely agree with Pros final contentions, that without God there is no Objective Meaning, Purpose and Value, and that this is in fact the case.

Secondly, I will argue against the ACTUAL debate topic, that without God there is no Meaning, purpose or value- note the Pro did not initially include "objective" in the argument. He then ARGUED for "objective" meaning, and thus his initial argument could be largely discounted, as all the would need to be shown is that there is another type of Meaning, Purpose and Value (abbreviated to MPV from now on!!) than OBJECTIVE MPV to invalidate his entire claim to this point.

I will, however, argue that there is NOT an Objective MPV WITH god- Now while this may not specifically invalidate the strict semantics of the debate title, I do feel that the Pro is proposing a dichotomy- that there can only be MPV WITH god, and disproving that equally invalidates the premise.

So I'll start with the Pros definitions-

"Meaning has to do with significance, why something matters"

I'm happy with that.

So, is there objective meaning at all?

I believe not.

We are a single species on a small planet in one solar system in one galaxy in a vast Universe. If we became extinct tomorrow it would have no effect on the overwhelming majority of the Universe. Is the rest of the Universe, according to Pro, equally Gods creation? If we have some special meaning, why would our eradication have so little impact on the vast bulk of what is equally creation? Have not millions of other species become extinct? Did the Universe become less meaningful with THEIR demise?

With or without a god, our existence has little impact on anything but ourselves, so the idea of objective meaning is quite meaningless.

But can we find meaning absent objectivity and God.

We certainly CAN- it is up to us. It matters to me whether I stay alive, healthy and happy. It matters to me that that my loved ones thrive and are happy. it matters to me that I experience love, beauty and joy.

These things matter because I have a pre-disposition for them to matter. Were I to develop a mental state such that I no longer felt this way, and perhaps wished to end my life, that meaning would no longer exists. These meanings exist as long as they mean something to ME- they have no intrinsic existence and cease to exist when I cease to hold them- they are subjective, not objective, yet that makes them no less valuable to me.

For the sake of the argument, I'll let it go that Mother Teresa is held as an example of good- the fact that shew was a cruel, narcissistic sadist can be left in abeyance- the point that some are good can be examined.

Again, we decide as a species what subjective acts we will tolerate, but that does not mean they are decided on through some absolute standard. There have been at least as many killed in ways we justify as there have in ways we condemn. we DECIDE which acts conform to our subjective standards-the fact that almost every conflict has two opposing views of what is "right" seems to be evidential of this.

Hitler killed 7 million Jews, and started a war that killed perhaps 50 million more.

This was, however, a tiny percentage of the worlds population.

Whether you take it as myth or fact, was there not an act represented in your holy book where your God- the supposed source of your objective values- killed the entire population of the planet bar six people and two of each animal (supposedly because of the wickedness of the people- but what did all the other animals do wrong?). Let's place an objective value on that act- where do we now rank Hitler, Teresa and Yhwy on the objective scale of wickedness?

On purpose you have made my argument for me. Yes, the Universe will one day die, and nothing we do will have change that for a milli-second. It will all be gone. So clearly we have no objective purpose. we DO have whatever purpose we decide to pursue, If we don't WANT a purpose, there is no external reason to have one, but we can if we like.

The entire initial argument from Pro seem to be "argument from preference". In other words, the alternative to the stated proposition is distasteful, and thus must be untrue. This is the most basic of logical fallacies- truth is independent of whether it is desirable or not.

So there is no objective MVP in our lives with or without God. There is as much subjective MVP as we choose to pursue.

The proposition is invalidated.
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Debate Round No. 4
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
@canis How can you have the same reason to live like me when you don't even believe that there is an eternal being(God). "Subjective meaning, purpose, or value of life...Imagine a god/creating a dream does not change that.." You changed your words :) that's not what you said before. You said," There is no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life...Imagine a god/creating a dream does not change that.."
and please stop saying "imagine a god" and "dream.." with no evidence and if I created a God everytime you commented "you guys created a dream" I would have so many gods that I can't even count. this makes you look immature to thank you.
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
the word count went over.
4. Because I have neglected and avoided the use of reason I cannot see what is clear about God.
Please try reading Philosophical Foundation by Surrendra Gangadean. This book will help you answer your question because it looks like you have tons of question to ask. thank you :)
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
contradictory statements cannot be true and cannot both be false.
The contradiction of "some is eternal" is "none is eternal."
If "none is eternal" then:
all is temporal.
all had a beginning
all came into being
If all came into being then being came into existence from non-being
being from non-being is not possible
therefore the original "none is eternal" is not possible
therefore its contradiction "some is eternal" must be true.

Pro is using Ad Hominem, begging the question, straw man, and complex question.
Because God is all-powerful and perfect being, with our knowledge we cannot know how he looks, his age or anything. That is why we know God is truly greater than us. Does age matter? And lastly, why is there evil in this world if God is good and powerful? that is your question right?
We, humans, are all born with the free will solution. For instance, if I want to eat pizza or hamburger I get to choose what I want to eat because I have the free will to do that. And evil makes the free will possible not actual.God is said to be free without the possibility of evil. And a man, in his final state of blessedness, is said to be free without the possibility of evil. But if evil did not exist was the prophecy to save us confirmable. Because evil existed we are able to sin. And because we are sinners we need a savior who can rescue us and forgive us. If there was no evil there wouldn't have been as sinning but because it is evil therefore there is sin and as a conclusion, we need a savior to forgive us.
According to the Surrendra Gangadean
1. because of all the evil in the world I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and powerful.
2. Because of all the unbelief in the world, I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful
3. because of all the unbelief in me I cannot see how it can be said that God is all good and all powerful
4. because I have neglected and avoided the use of reason I cannot see what is clear about
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
"Then why do you live? If you say there's no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life why do you live? @canis"
just for the same reasons like you:
Subjective meaning, purpose, or value of life...Imagine a god/creating a dream does not change that..
Posted by Wizofoz 3 years ago
Wizofoz
Because I like living.
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
Then why do you live? If you say there's no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life why do you live? @canis
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
Then why do you live? If you say there's no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life why do you live? @canis
Posted by gkim 3 years ago
gkim
Then why do you live? If you say there's no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life why do you live? @canis
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
"Without God, there cannot be objective meaning, purpose, or value in life"
There is no objective meaning, purpose, or value of life...Imagine a god/creating a dream does not change that..
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