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The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
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The Contender
freid
Con (against)
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Nordic Socialism really is Socialistic

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/3/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 367 times Debate No: 120608
Debate Rounds (3)
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billsands

Pro


In addition to their large welfare states and high tax levels, Nordic economies are also home to large public sectors, Strong job protections, And labor markets governed by centralized union contracts.


freid

Con

Thanks for the opportunity!

Before posting my argument I'll start with definitions. These are all standard definitions:

SOCIALIST SYSTEM: an economic system in which there is social ownership of the means of production.
CAPITALIST SYSTEM: an economic system in which there is private ownership of the means of production.
MIXED SYSTEM: an economic system in which there is both social and private ownership of the means of production.

All nordic countries [traditionally, Denmark Sweden and Norway] have both privately owned [either individually or as a collection of individuals publicly identified as a business entity or corporation] and state-owned [either at the local-government or federal level] enterprises.

By deduction, All nordic countries have mixed economic systems.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

There are forms of socialism like Market Socialism and Social Democracy that have a market componnent your defintion is a marxist one i did not stupulate marxist socialism NOrdics are very social democratic there for they fit a type of socialism.
freid

Con

"There are forms of socialism like Market Socialism and Social Democracy that have a market componnent"

This is false, In a pure socialistic system either the state or a smaller collection of individuals (eg a worker cooperative) own the means of production in each of the different economic sectors. There is no competition in the free market sense of the term. Market socialism is not considered a purely traditional socialist system and social democracy is a political designation which has more to do with a state"s social safety net policies - political policies that promote wealth redistribution and policy based economic regulation but these aren"t the same as economic socialism which involve public ownership of industries.

"your defintion is a marxist one i did not stupulate marxist socialism"

My definition is not Marxist socialism, Marxist socialism involves state ownership of industries- I specified social ownership which would include also decentralized forms of socialism (eg worker ownership of industries).

"NOrdics are very social democratic there for they fit a type of socialism. "
I think it"s right to call them socially democratic but this is not the same as economic socialism. Having hefty safety nets, Strong regulatory policy doesn"t make one economically socialistic. What actually makes them have socialistic components in their economy is the fact that there are some publically owned companies (particularly in Norway and Sweden), And Denmark apparently has a strong tradition of worker cooperatives but these all operate within a market economy in that they compete with privately owned companies. Hence they are mixed systems
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

Look at the defintions of social democracy or market socialism these are established accepted defintions, Of systems based on market forces with private enterpised and a mixed economic system, You can't deny that!
freid

Con

"Look at the defintions of social democracy or market socialism these are established accepted defintions"

In market socialism, All enterprises are publicly owned but compete with each other within their respective sectors [see Britannica definition]. Market socialism is distinct from the concept of mixed economy, A mixed economy includes privately owned companies while market socialism does not. None of the nordic countries engage in market socialism. Just by the numbers you can see this too, OECD [Organization for economic development] estimates ~29 - 36% of employees are in the public sector for Norway (35. 6%) Sweden (29. 9%) and Denmark (32. 9%) which leaves approximately 64 - 70% of the employment being private sector based (i. E. In privately owned companies). That's ~2/3rds of the jobs being private sector.

Regarding social democracy. . See Brittanica meaning:

"Social democracy, Political ideology that originally advocated a peaceful evolutionary transition of society from capitalism to socialism using established political processes. In the second half of the 20th century, There emerged a more moderate version of the doctrine, Which generally espoused state regulation, Rather than state ownership, Of the means of production and extensive social welfare programs. Based on 19th-century socialism and the tenets of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Social democracy shares common ideological roots with communism but eschews its militancy and totalitarianism. Social democracy was originally known as revisionism because it represented a change in basic Marxist doctrine, Primarily in the former"s repudiation of the use of revolution to establish a socialist society. "

See the clear present day connotation which is with market based economies that have strong regulatory policy and welfare programs for wealth redistribution. This is something distinct from socialism in the proper sense.

"Of systems based on market forces with private enterpised and a mixed economic system"

Mixed economy is not the same as socialism (which, Is itself, Not the same as marxism or centralized socialism as I clarified before).

The pro side is mistaking welfare state with mixed economy as socialism, Which is understandable and has been done by others in the past. I stand by my argument that Nordic countries have mixed, Market economies with extensive regulation.
Debate Round No. 3
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