The Instigator
jakabus
Pro (for)
The Contender
AKMath
Con (against)

Not to convince but to rethink prior assumptions

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/8/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 378 times Debate No: 118086
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

jakabus

Pro

Hello AKMath

I recently read a debate, That involved you. It was questioning whether or not God is perfect. My intention is not to convince you of God's existence or to harass you in any maner. I am sorry in advance if I come across offensive or obnoxious. My true intention in beginning this was that I may be able to help. I am aware that life can feel a little daunting if we envision an angry, Ruthless God and downright scary if we can think of a reason for God to be particularly angry at one of us or loved one. If death is not scary enough (probably the reason why death is so scary) we have to contend with a concept like that. That can be depressing enough to send someone in search for hope in a bleak existance. I think this depressing view of God is the consequence of a major misrepresentation due to in accurate translations (note the 'S' not a single mistake but a well planed multitude of them) I think we (yes, You and me) may be able to restore a little peace of mind about the whole God concept.

Obviously when speaking about God; we want to be open minded, Ballanced with as much logic as possible. Otherwise it would be utter nonsense & I am one of the many who believe there is real truth in all this. As assumed the both of us should try to remain respectful even though new/fresh views on such a subject can, At first be a shock to the senses. This is more so a warning for me because I am so confident in what I know about this stuff that I some times fear that I may come across a bit of a butt hole at times. So now you know why I started this, Where my perspective is coming from (in a theistic sense as oppossed to an atheist point of reference) Actually I label myself as a theist agnostic. My views on this are my own, However they were influenced through a mixture of other religions and most prominent the bible. I do not think I have created a whole new religion or anything but I do think I have a fair understanding of its original teachings through common sense deductions. This may all be supper confussing at first & so I am hoping this debate method of speech may be able to break it up in to more manageable pieces. So now lets begin. . .

As you may have already guessed I will be using the bible, But only loosely. I believe the bible was written as with a forked tongue [figuratively speaking] by which I mean there are some real truths in there from God and then there are parts in there twisted with satans tonge, So to speak. Unfortunately there will be a great deal of concentration on satan because he is the catalyst figure in all this. I believe God originally intended to design mankind with out man having any concept of God at all what so ever. But something happened in which we are clearly able to talk about God today. I believe satan may be the very reason we can even think of God. According to the bible lucifer became satan because his pride convinced him that he deserves to sit in God's throne, Which got him struck out of heaven (how ever the book of job leads one to assume that satan must have some access into heaven, Maybe to place bets against God? You can look into it for yourself) Anyway the bible also claims that satan is king of this world but God is the grand master of the universe! So once satan fell from heaven he became ruler of earth some how? (Your on your own on this one because thats all I got lol) so eventually Jesus arrives on planet earth. Yep, The very same that satan is ruler of & that we are all living on. I believe Jesus came at that particular time for a reason, A reason I am unsure of. Maybe a power imbalance between the rich and poor was at a point where it was nearly irreversible with out intervention. (I am not saying something super natural happened)

My interpretation on the life of Jesus goes as such. . . . Mary gave birth to Jesus before she was 13 or 14 y. O. At the time. They did not have words like permisques back then so they still classed her as a virgin. (Then when they translated the bibe from one language to another {hebrew to greek I think} they then read the prase {in what ever language it was back then} 'virgin birth' and the non-sense had snowballed from there)
Jesus was also Joseph's son, Whom was a carpenter. (Take a moment to think about what carpentry must have been like back 2000 + years ago, Remember they could cut rock with surprising accuracy) so if he didn't come from a wealthy family (I do not know, But I would assume so) then he definitely met wealthy people whom could afford his services. From there Jesus seen the effect money had on the people. (Money turns angles into animals) It was Ceasars head on the coins of rome & it was Jesus that said "to give back to Caesar what belongs to Ceasar" (but unfortunately still today we are a slave to the dollar)

Go on youtube and look up the speech that got JFK killed. . . I believe Jesus was assassinated some what like JFK (it was public and so those who have the power keep the power) obviously he was not killed in the same fashion as JFK but they were both martyrs for the benefit of mankind.

When satan tempted Jesus he offered to trade ALL the kingdoms on earth for Jesus to bow to him once. . . Just once. . . And what did Jesus say "get behind me satan" (That is probably my favourite part)
The darkest thing I have heard about Jesus (That I highly doubt, But its good to take everything with a grain of salt) what if Jesus was the fool that fell from heaven? But if Jesus was the fallen one would you expect the evil one to teach things like treating others how you would like to be treated (see why I doubt it)

I feel as confident as God exists that Jesus was a good guy. But The most mind boggling thing about God to me is Jesus. I try really hard not to bring the super natural into describing God but trying to merge Jesus into what I already know makes sense to me about God is really hard! Something that has helped me understand God was to reverse the personification originally used to understand God. So instead of trying to imagine a God man being, Imagine a God like energy. Specifically love! Understand now how merging a real body human being (Jesus) into something that requires a body but is not made up of a body.

This is a really random start (and I am sorry it doesn't make much sense) but I am hoping I will be able to hone in more on the target in round two. This gives you a chance to question & clarify what I have typed thus far. Again I am sorry there is so much to digest (Thats why I tried to lay majority of the foundation in this initial greeting so that we can get on to the meaningful stuff) [the second last paragraph will probably be where I will be starting up from next] heads up: I think I may have bitten off more then what I can chew
AKMath

Con

1. Why and how would the book of Job assume that? What do you mean to place bets?
Metaphor:
Jesus and God are the generals of two armies. They can talk to each other like George Washington talked and sent a few letters to Lord Cornwallis and vice versa.

2. No Satan didn't become the King od Earth by being cast into Hell. He became King when Adam and Eve ate the Apple (it's actually a grapefruit) of knowledge.

3. No not permisques, She was a virgin. She was impregnated by the holy spirit. Btw the Holy Spirit is not a man or any gender at all so she is a virgin.

4. Virgin-birth would be accurate not a translation mistake. The translators would probably have had to come up with a new word or phrase because just birth assumes it's birth from a male, While Mary had birth from the Holy Spirit.

5. Yes, Jesus was not wealthy, He was middle class. Why would you assume he met wealthy people. You don't exactly have to be wealthy to bye woodwork/carpentry, Even if it was 2, 000 years ago.

6. What did you mean in your second to the last paragraph? Can you clarify?

btw I was happy to answer these questions. :D
Debate Round No. 1
jakabus

Pro

1. Read job 1:6-12
I assume you are talking about prayer with your metaphore?

2. How do you get a grapefruit? That is just as rediculous as an apple. (If it is some type of brain specific food, Surely it would be tumeric or cumin or something like that)

3. A virgin birth? I am a believer but that is borderline insanity. . . Think about it. . . He is not the only one who came back to life, Which gives his sacrifice some extra accountability but a virgin birth? Who is next to spontaneously appear. . . This is part of the reason why this stuff is such nonsense to a lot of people. How fear does it to just blindly accept something like that?

4. Remember satan is the great deceiver. . . You can't deny the fact that there is pain & suffering in this world. We do this to ourselves and then blame God for our existance. . . I am a father of one son whom was not planed and both his mum & I love him very much, As do most parents! Religion gathered us once upon a time where we could learn about God and now it is one of the many things that divide us. What parent on this planet births a child out into this world and demands worship? Respect and understanding sure but worship? For what? Why does God expect worship? I will tell you why, Because satan wants every one to share his hatred! He hates that we are more respected and admired then what he was and wants us to be just as much as a failure as what he was. Satan was made with a seal of perfection and that beauty deceived him into thinking that he was too good to fail and therefore deserves the right to sit on God's throne. His pride was what made him fall. . . Now we have these religious fanatics who are convinced that they have been granted access into heaven because they have repented. What is your take on the holy spirit?
Ezekiel 28
2 corinthians 11

5. Wealth back then had far more power then what it does now. The power that governments have now was available to wealthy enough induviduals. Who paid the roman soldiers paid the trades people whom built their objects. There was not as many people back then & neither was the knowledge that we know today. There were a few induviduals wealthy enough to be educated and they became witty enough to know that not everyone can have what they have got. Hence the secret knowledge. When Jesus started shareing the knowledge around they could see that their power over the people would be challanged and so they had to make an example of Jesus. It was that act that gave them up (The people could reason that they didn't deserve the power that the elites of that time had) pharacies were people who claimed a beliefe of God but handled in a way in which they would prosper. Sadicies were people who had no beliefe in God at all (what we call atheists today) but they died out shortly after jesus reserection because the truth was that profound. However a ruler of the roman empire named calligula came forth about 100 years after that (I can't connect it but I has always stood out to me)

6. There is a part in the bible where it says (I don't know where) God handles the universe in the span of his hand. I believe that is a mistranslation which is more so ment to sound like this: God handles the span of the universe. Both mean God is in control of the universe but implies that the universe is held in his hand. . . Does that help clarify it anymore?

God is love and it also claims Jesus dwels within God & God dwels within him, Who ever lives in love lives in lives in God. . . . That is not as supper natrual as it may at first seem to be. Love is something that is expressed outwardly that comes from within us, It is of paramount in our life. Original love was between parents and a child, Not between man and woman because they would of had to of been babies first, Correct?
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by jakabus 3 years ago
jakabus
How is it possible for life to come from nothing? Nothing is as nothing does. . . Just because our view of God is flawed (A hell sending, Angry at all who does not bow before him. . . . I mean c'mon everybody) does not mean there is no God. That means either the universe brought itself into existance (and all life supporting planets just meracuously appeared) or The universe has always been and we were wrong about micro-radiation background that was the evidence that gave weight to the big bag theory. You can't say there is no God and then observe creation everywhere. . . That does not make any sense, I bet that makes no sense to you either. Why do you think this misrepresentation is? Obviously no one wants to beleive in something that makes about as much sense as a blue whale floating in the sky. . The colour blue, The sky & whales do exist but the placing is wrong. Are we to think that the human race brought itself to earth? Surely not. . . What if we are like in a womb (I am not saying we are, Just a hypothetical. . . And to add more non-sense to something that is already undoable) kicking back to a fathers muffed voice, Prods & pokes. We would never find an proof of the father if we were in a womb like seperation from him. Just something to ponder. . .

Now I am not saying God snapped his fingers & all this came to be. . . It makes more sense for life to have came from stardust in the forming of earth, Which then evolved eventually to what we see today. The ellements found on the periodic table that make up the human body are found in the ground in which Adam was supposedly moulded from? See how it is misrepresented? We have to stop trying to imagine something while we talk about God, Like the conscience.

The more you know, The more you can see how our view of God does not make sense.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Belief is not a choice. . . . So how does a person know god, If what they know and how they think keeps them from believing. I am sure that there many reasons to believe, But it is reason that keeps me from believing, Not choice.
So why does the bible promote belief as a choice when it is not?
This basic philosophical contradiction shows that your god is an invention of fallible men. The thousands of gods invented over thousands of years shows that gods are inventions of men, Nothing more. Faith is not a virtue, It is a repudiation of one the few good things human beings have going for them: a little bit of reason.
The more we know the less we need belief.
Posted by AKMath 3 years ago
AKMath
Here is a good Q&A website:

https://answersingenesis. Org/answers/
Posted by jakabus 3 years ago
jakabus
Unfortunately not, I can't use tech very well. . . I have had a searched for it since and can't find it either. . .

Oh well, Have a good day
Posted by AKMath 3 years ago
AKMath
Umm. Okay. After reading it, It seems like you have a Q&A rather than a debate.

P. S. There are whole websites devoted to answering questions like yours from priests and scholars.
Posted by AKMath 3 years ago
AKMath
TBH I don't even remember that debate. Can you give me a link.
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