The Instigator
killshot
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
TheGreatGameLord
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Omniscience & Free Will

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/15/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,282 times Debate No: 120844
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (83)
Votes (0)

 

killshot

Pro

A God that is infallibly future omniscient by definition negates the possibility of free will; fatalism and free will cannot logically coexist.

Round 1) Acceptance/Argument
Round 2) Rebuttal
Round 3) Rebuttal/Conclusions
TheGreatGameLord

Con

In my opinion, Omnipitence =/= fatalism. Just because a deity knows what is going to happen doesn't mean they control what will happen. They just know that people will make certain decisions via their free will. There is no reason to think that just because they know what choices people will make people have no free will.
Debate Round No. 1
killshot

Pro

Thanks for accepting the challenge! Nice to meet you!

I didn't say that the God necessarily is controlling what will happen; whether or not the God is a controlling agent is irrelevant to the logic of this argument.

There is no reason to think that just because they know what choices people will make people have no free will.

I don't understand how you can reach that conclusion. In order to know the future, The future must be pre-determined in advance (fatalism). If the future is a result of multiple compounded free will choices originating from numerous agents, There is no way to have a pre-determined future. If the future is known, Then the choices made were not of free will; the choices made were always going to be made exactly the way they were and this was known in advance.
TheGreatGameLord

Con

"I didn't say that God necessarily is controlling what will happen. . . " Then who exactly is controlling what is happening? If it isn't God, Who could it possibly be? If no one controls everything that happens, Then it can not be predetermined, And free-will must be real.

"In order to know the future, The future must be pre-determined in advance (fatalism). " Why is that true? Where does it say that, For the future to be known by a deity, That the future must already be determined? Going by all logic and scientific evidence, It should be impossible to completely predict the future. If God predicts the future with complete accuracy, He is already doing something fantastical and something that should be impossible. If he can do one impossible act, Predicting the future, Then who is to say he can not do another impossible act, I. E. Predicting the future without it being predetermined.

"If the future is a result of multiple compounded free will choices originating from numerous agents, There is no way to have a pre-determined future. If the future is known, Then the choices made were not of free will; the choices made were always going to be made exactly the way they were and this was known in advance. " You are making the mistake of thinking logically. This is an illogical situation. There is a magical being that knows the future. His existence is against all logic. You can not use logic to prove or disprove anything.
Debate Round No. 2
killshot

Pro

Here is my proposition once again:

A God that is infallibly future omniscient by definition negates the possibility of free will; fatalism and free will cannot logically coexist.

1) I'm not saying a God is real
2) I'm not saying God is infallibly future omniscient
3) I'm not saying fatalism is true
4) I'm not saying free will is true
5) I'm not saying fatalism is being controlled

I am saying that fatalism and free will cannot logically coexist and that a God who is infallibly future omniscient negates the possibility of free will for that reason. Free will requires an undetermined future that is derived from choices made by agents of free will; fatalism is incompatible with this.

Your answer of "magic did it; God can do anything I want" is simply an argument from ignorance and a non sequitur.

You have completely failed to address my proposition. All you have done is inject words, Change definitions and blame magic.
TheGreatGameLord

Con

But the concept of God is based in magical and fantastical things, And can not be explained with logic. Therefore, Logic is not relevant. I know that you're speaking entirely hypothetically and you may or may not actually believe in God, But, Speaking entirely hypothetically, You can't bring logic into this.

Your argument by definition has no evidence. You can't make an argument. You say "this is impossible. " I'm saying that the entire situation is impossible, So it makes no sense to go into that situation and say one specific part of it is impossible. If there can be a being with infinite power to see the future, You can't say that that's possible (within the situation) and say that free will isn't. You just can't make an argument.
Debate Round No. 3
83 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@TheGreatGameLord

Do you agree that Speedrace is f*cking stupid for not knowing how to formulate an argument that is logically consistent without it being fallacious?
Posted by TheGreatGameLord 3 years ago
TheGreatGameLord
Can you guys stop commenting and vote
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Speedrace

Please do what?
I stated your fallacious arguments so you are ignorant to how fallacious you are. Does that go over your head too?
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@omar2345

What exactly did I say that was ignorant? Please explain, Because I could say you're ignorant simply because you're not a Christian. Does that justify it?
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Speedrace

I thought society has improved but guess not when we have people like Speedrace who can't even formulate a coherent argument. I didn't use insults to beat you. I used it because of how frustrated I am at your intellectual dishonesty. You have shown much better formulation of arguments in the past but here like you did in the free will debate when it comes to Religion you are going to act stupid. You must laugh because ignorance is bliss.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@omar2345

Funny that you have to insult me to make your points, What I said was valid but you'll always react like that because you don't believe
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Speedrace

Funny how you don't understand what you did wrong. Makes you think how little your brain actually is.
Whataboutism, Lying, Non-sequitur and logically inconistent are all things you have done. Be proud of yourself for not admitting your mistakes and even saying something like I came on debate. Org to hear opposing arguments. This comment is a clear example of you not admitting to your mistakes thus going against why you came here. Great job.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@omar2345

Funny how you have to resort to insults to make your points :)
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Speedrace

I never knew someone can be this stupid. Congrats on your stupidity. Remind me to never speak to you again. Live in a world where you don't even understand how stupid you are. I tried but being logically consistent and not being fallacious goes right over your head.
Posted by Speedrace 3 years ago
Speedrace
@omar2345

"Guess you are deluded. Maybe you actually learn your science from Christians as well. "

So you believe that someone causes the wind? AWESOME, See we agree

"I asked you a question. I didn't use my own logic instead asked to know your logic. Are you okay? Is this conversation too much for you? "

You can't even prove that we don't have free will sir

"Do you agree that some people are more free than others? "

Nope

"Are my denying his existence or calling you out on the lack thereof intelligence? "

Huh?

"Lol argumentum Ad populum. Sorry but when Islam does become the biggest Religion your statement becomes null not like it wasn't already but it will be worse in the future. "

I never said Christianity is right because we have the most followers, YOU said that 80% of the world is stupid

"Whataboutism again? Do you learn from your mistakes or should I expect this from people who lack intelligence? I don't need to show you a book to tell you how God doesn't exist but you require an entire book to state God exists. Really shows how faulty your belief is. "

No it doesn't, Since when are books bad?

"No I don't. Are you going to tell me now? "

Then go figure out where you get yours and then come back and ask me sir

"Is the Bible true?

I believe so

"Proof? I wanted someone who is an expert in the field. A scholar AKA an archaeologist turns out you can't even manage that. Goes to show how little reason you have in believing in God. "

You literally said :
Can you find someone that isn't a scholar that proves he done the extraordinary feats?

"How is the Bible reliable? "

By it being true

"You had the burden to prove we have free will. Can you? "

Can you prove that we don't?

"I guess you are stupid. "

Your guess is wrong :)

"Earth does not have corners you f*cking idiot. It is a sphere. A sphere has no corners. "

ARE YOU BLIND? I LITERALLY SAID CORNERS MEANS NORTH, EAST, SOUTH, AND WEST.
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