The Instigator
Pro (for)
11 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
8 Points

On balance, Justin Bieber is a worse influence on teenagers than Miley Cyrus

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Post Voting Period
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after 5 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/11/2013 Category: Society
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 14,041 times Debate No: 35520
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (5)




This debate is the first debate of Ryuu's first gauntlet tournament!

I am a fairly new debater, though I plan on giving this debate my absolute best and working my way up the ladder.

(As per tournament rules, this is a serious debate, about a fun topic. No trolling should be done whatsoever).


Challenger -- This is the person going through the Gauntlet challenge. This person will debate each person signed up to the challenge tower in order from lowest to highest Elo. This is a single loss-elimination tournament, so if you lose a debate, you fail the Gauntlet.

Challenge-Tower members -- These are the (in this case) 5 other users. These people will only be debating once in this tournament, so if you want to be a part of a tournament, but can't commit to a full tournament for time reasons or the like, this is the ideal position for you.


1. Topics will be decided by the debaters. However, there is a strict 48h time limit. If no topic is agreed to after this time frame, I'll be choosing a topic for you.

2. The Gauntlet challenger is expected to instigate, but obviously exceptions can be made depending on the topic chosen.

3. Four rounds, 8k characters. First round is for acceptance.

4. Voting periods can be as long as you like, but after 48 hours the person with the most points is recognized as the winner for the purposes of this tournament.

5. No troll debates."

Here is the current challenge tower:

1. RocketEngineer

Challenge Tower:
1. Tvellalott
2. Calculatedr1sk
3. Noumena
4. ClassicRobert
5. Thett

1. RyuuKyuzo
2. DetectableNinja
3. Phantom
4. FrackJack
5. Stephen_Hawkins

I am sending this challenge do to a short time limit given by ryuu to get this out, so I will wait for my opponent to accept this debate. If you want me to change the resolution, please let me know in the comments.

I look forward to a great debate!


I accept and will be arguing that Miley Cyrus is a worse influence on teenagers than Justin Bieber.

Let's do this.
Debate Round No. 1


I will start this debate out by saying that I think both Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber are both horrible role models. This debate will be about which one is worse, and has the potential to get teenagers into worse bad habits.


This intro's intention is to explain why all the following arguments are relevant, and substantial. Both Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus both are famous, highly paid singers (in one case an actor as well). Specifically Bieber made 60 million last year, 5 million more than he did the previous year. (1) Miley Cyrus makes money from being a singer, which averaged around 48 million a year in 2010, however makes much more than Bieber with her T.V. Show, continued movie profits, and her Album "Breakout". (2)

Here is the important question: Why is this important?

Both of these individuals make more money than the average American makes in their entire lives. (3) This is not even including money made in some other countries, which in some/alot of cases, is much lower.

These pop culture influences, target the younger generations; Specifically teens. So with this said, both pop artists, make their wealth, and happiness largely off of influencing teenagers. That's almost the entirety of their job. So with that said, I will be basing every point in this debate off of the principal that these pop culture entertainers, are largely responsible for teen behaviors, and actions of their followers. I hope my opponent can agree with this point, and we can center the debate around the responsibility of both individuals actions on society.

Argument 1: Justin Biebers Crimes

Justin Bieber has recently made himself through his whole hearted efforts to thwart the law. Above are some videos regarding the incidents I am about to discuss. Bieber has made public dis-obedience, and lack of care for the law known through several outbursts that have made him the center of attention of a lot of news stations.

1) Speeding.

Recently Justin Bieber was caught speeding, using the excuse of trying to escape progressive Paparazzi. (4)

Dubai newspapers on Tuesday quoted a police official saying the megastar racked up a "number" of speeding fines before being pulled over.

And again, Bieber was accused of speeding inside his private gated neighborhood which was paparazzi free, thus giving him no excuse for his behavior. (5) He received not just one call, but multiple calls from neighbors that were complaining of his speeding, and how it endangers the children in the area. While Justin tried to blame the incident on his friend, police were not able to find conclusive evidence that is was in fact is friend, or that Bieber tried to prevent his friend from his actions if it were him. The death of a paparazzi also seemed to be the cause of Bieber' s aggressive driving.

2) Fighting.

Justin Bieber has made a big scene with a physical confrontation of a paparazzi member. There are photo's leaking of Bieber punching the man in the face, which resulted in him being hospitalized. (6) Justin Bieber was facing potential Jail time for his actions.

Also above is a video of Justin Bieber Re-acting violently towards a comment made towards him. In this video's he makes threat, and attempts to attack the heckler. While I do not support that paparazzi action's or pushy behavior, Justin Bieber is among hundreds of other famous people who have to deal with these people on the daily. Some paparazzi/ rude fans have easily been dis-regarded or ignored, though anger is a common re-action from celebrities. They need to realize that with their position, that they are going to have just as many people that hate them, as they do that love them. They are getting paid millions of dollars to endure this, so re-acting in such a way is completely unnecessary, as opposed to ignoring them. Ruthless paparazzi insults are not an excuse for violence.

3) Drugs?

Police have uncovered evidence of Pot, and a stun gun on Bieber' s tour bus. Arguments against whether or not this was proved or not, should be invalid, as Justin Bieber admitted it publicly in a Saturday night live sketch he participated in (video included above). (7)

There have been other incidents of Bieber being seen with drugs, or being reported using drugs, as well, to support the theory that he is using them. Whether drugs should be legal in this case, is a completely separate issue. Using them in most states, is against the law, and Bieber using drugs, means he committed a crime.

4) Sexual harassment of fans?

Justin Bieber should be able to do whatever he wants as far as sexuality goes on his own time, behind closed doors. But in public, in a photoshoot? What kind of message does this pop singer give when he is seen groping fans?

While the fan tweeted, that she did not ask him to do this, whether it was an accident or not as he claims, is up in the air. The way in which his hand is cupped, would make one wonder if Bieber was actually going for a hug, or was just testosterone filled horny teenager looking for an excuse to do physically have his way with a fan. (8)

Argument 2: Miley Cyrus has a better public reputation

Overall, Miley Cyrus is known for being pretty well mannered and polite, as opposed to Justin Bieber. Her worst crimes are probably her music video's seductive nature's, and lyrical interpretation. A lot of the public's problem with her seems to be that she is promiscuous. Let's keep in mind, that outside her music videos, she stays inside a lot, and has been committed to her boyfriend Liam Hensworth.

Miley Cyrus sums up the argument herself pretty well in an interview:

"People have very mixed opinions on me, Cyrus says. I'm a great model, or I'm completely inappropriate for anyone under 13 and I'm very controversial. I don't know how I became this.
I'm not some crazy lady who's gone off the deep end, because I definitely haven't. Every 18-year-old explores sexuality and experiments and tries things. For me there's no reason to change that." I was like, 'What the hell, man?' I stay in the house pretty much every day. I don't go out, she tells Prestige. I've had the same boyfriend [Liam Hemsworth] for two years" (9)

The point is, that Miley is more professional, and even demonstrates values from learning from her mistakes in each Disney channel video made.


Behavior wise, Justin Bieber takes the cake in regards to public display of un-professional teenage angst. Miley Cyrus, even in her younger years, has always been a polite woman. She has graciously helped aspiring singers in the past on American Idol, and in other places. (10)
Justin Bieber has only made himself known as a drug using, aggressive driving, street fighting thug. Justin Bieber' s music in and of itself displays an accurate depiction of a lot of his condoned behaviors, and real-life traits.

I pass the debate over to Tvellalot. Thank you for accepting, and good luck!





Welcome ladies and gentleman, to the first round of the Gauntlet tournament. I, being the lowest ranked amongst those who signed up, will be the first challenge for our brave challenger and I intend to do my very best to stop him in his tracks right here.

So, about this topic… When my opponent suggested this topic, my first thought was “oh, well Miley has been in some trouble. It should be fairly easy to argue she’s worse than Bieber as a role model” but upon researching, I was surprised at the lack of tangible evidence there was against her. So, I’ve changed my approach completely and will instead focus on two points, so without further ado… The arguments.



Justin Beiber (rags to riches) versus Miley Cyrus (achy breaky millionaire)

My first argument is that Justin Beiber is, while not my personal cup of tea music-wise, actually quite talented. He is self-taught with several instruments (piano, drums, guitar, trumpet) [VIDEO 1]. Furthermore, he is an example of someone who grew up in a low-income home and went on to become extremely rich and famous. He gained this talent through hard work and struggle (and luck, of course.)

See this quote from Beiber: “I grew up below the poverty line; I didn't have as much as other people did. I think it made me stronger as a person, it built my character. Now I have a 4.0 grade point average and I want to go to college, and just become a better person.”

Cyrus on the other hand grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth. While it’s true she had to work to get the role in Hannah Montana, she had the resources available to her to make that oh so much easier. Evidence of this is the fact all five of Cyrus’s siblings are at the very least in the public eye with Noah Cyrus an established actor and Trace Cyrus an established musician.

With a vast majority of the population of the western world being economically closer to Bieber’s pre-fame days than Cyrus’s and the obvious hard-work he put into developing musical skills despite the tribulations that come with being part of a low-income family, Bieber is a better influence than Cyrus.


Bieber, still singing about kissing versus Hannah Montana, whose dancing with molly.

My next argument is quite abstract and probably completely fallacious somehow, but I must put it forward anyway.

Let’s look at the career of Bieber briefly; this young talented, good-looking kid gets discovered, blows up and becomes one of the most loved/hated people in the whole world (mostly by/due to obnoxious, ignorant fans). Now he is, by all predictions, on the path to meltdown. (And I’ll speak more of this in my rebuttals). Music wise however, he hasn’t progressed very much. I’m painfully listening to ‘Heartbreaker’, his leaked new single (see my dedication to researching this topic.) It’s bloody awful, but it’s pretty tame lyric wise. It’s the same sort of song he has been doing since ‘Baby.’ Young person love/lust pop songs.

Now, let’s look at the career transition of Miley Cyrus and why, I believe, her continued transition into more adult behaviour and lyrics far exceed Justin Bieber in terms of being a bad influence. Her major break and most recognised contribution to pop culture is obviously Hannah Montana. This is a show whose demographic is clearly young girls, I’m guessing, between 8 and 14. She filmed nearly 100 episodes of the show alone, plus movies and albums and merchandise out the wazoo. She made Disney a LOT of money. The show ended in 2011 and Cyrus has moved on to the aforementioned more mature projects. However, the show is still being played by Disney. Children aged 8 to 14 are still watching it. Then, they’re going on their iPads and they’re watching this [VIDEO 2].

It’s a bit weird and not PARTICULARLY offensive (unless you’re offended by terrible music like I am) but it is a party anthem and it has strong undertones of sex, drugs and alcohol (even though it’s blatantly obvious that she would not repeatedly use the slang term for ecstasy ‘Molly’ in the hook of her song.) Also, is it just me or does she look extremely hot in that white tight outfit? Rawr. Anyway, I’ll conclude this point.

Justin Bieber is just doing the same thing he has always done music wise. His music is non-offensive lyrically, with very tame themes about love, commitment and heartbreak. Miley Cyrus has the means of building a huge, huge fanbase of tween girls and is now moving onto more adult content in her music. In this way Miley Cyrus is a worse influence than Justin Bieber.


Justin’s Grand Theft Auto style crime spree

SPEEDING: I’ll drop this one. Bieber fans might just be stupid enough to see him getting caught speeding in his car and copy him.

FIGHTING: I contest this, on the basis that Bieber fans are almost certainly not being harassed to the point of madness by hordes of jerk paparazzi and if they were and they did take a leaf out of his book and lash out, I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing.

DRUGS: Oh lighten up. So Bieber may have done some drugs. The fact is, we have no idea what sort of level of drug use he is into. He might smoke a bit of pot or he might be a full-blown meth addict. His ‘people’ are keeping it almost completely under wraps. He has nothing on Miley []. I personally love smoking a bit of pot, but this article demonstrates once again how dangerous it is that Miley Cyrus has a huge tween fan base. To summarise it (in case you don’t want to read) Miley thinks marijuana is better than alcohol and she wears a bag with marijuana leaves on it. That’s almost openly advocating smoking weed.

Justin ‘the groper’ Bieber?

This almost certainly is an isolated incident. Try as I might I cannot find a single other example of Bieber groping anyone. Whether it’s intentional or simply a badly timed photo, remains to be seen.

Justin’s reputation?

This is another tenuous point. Certainly if you compound a few isolated incidents and massively exaggerate their frequency as your evidence does, you might be able to paint Bieber as a… let me find this quote… “drug using, aggressive driving, street fighting thug” (I laughed really hard reading that) but we all know this is far from the truth. Bieber might be on the path to melt down but punching a paparazzi jerk, speeding (in Dubai was it?) and maybe smoking some pot hardly make him Ozzy Osbourne. Doing the research for this debate has been extremely painful, as the sources I’ve had to sift through are nothing short of evil. These poor kids get used like cheap whores to make headlines. Every single person who works at TMZ should be lined up and given 10 lashes.

I assert that you have repeatedly committed a fallacy with your portrayal of Bieber, that your selective use of incidents is what is often referred to as “Misleading Vividness”.

You need only look here: to see that Bieber does a lot of good things including, and I quote, “On Valentine’s Day, 2011, Justin surprised six-year-old fan and brain cancer sufferer Avalanna Routh by flying her to New York, where he spent the afternoon playing board games and eating cupcakes with her.”

That warms the cockles of my heart.


I really don't think either of these kids are particularly bad influences having done a fair bit of research in preparation for this debate. The difference is that Cyrus has a strong Disney background and if she continues down the path she's seemingly taking, the tween fans might be exposed to some questionable content. I will be focusing more (argh) on the content of these two stars music in my next arguments since I believe that is the crux of this debate.

I will leave it at that for now. Over to you, good sir.

Debate Round No. 2


Tvellalot's Arguments

1. Something to aspire to

I think both Justin Bieber did work hard in the beginning of his career, and with the help of others (adults), was able to become as popular as he is now. The problem is, the youthful innocence Justin "may" have had is now gone. Justin Bieber has turned into a rebel teenager who does nothing more for society than enrage people, and and entertain little girls. But that's just my respective opinion. We can look at his behavior in all the previous situations I noted, plus others that I haven't to show Bieber' s true colors. I think most famous singers start out small. But this argument doesn't do much for making up for his negative influence.

2. Transitioning.

It is true that Miley is transitioning into a more mature music setting than Beiber is. Bieber I think has been to some extent psychologically damaged, as Brittany Spears was from all the fame, celebrity, and riches. I don't think this does much to prove that Miley is a worse influence; just that her impact on younger teens has shifted to older ones.


Argument 1: Justin Beiber's Crimes

(For ease of argumentation and grouping, I will take out the four step categorilation underneath this argument)

Justin’s constant bad behavior streak however is quite different than Miley’s. His social impact is based purely on negative reactions, and improper conduct.
Justin Bieber as a person has demonstrated himself to be a jerk. People can follow his music and entertainment, but in the way of character, it’s hard for teens to look up to him as anything more than a good entertainer.
Miley’s Social and Public behavior isn’t as negatively reputable. Miley generally responds to media with elegance and self control, and is able to establish herself popularly among other singers.

Again, what we need to weigh in this debate is who does less damage in the form of public negative influence.
At the rate Justin is going, he will be featured on the news almost monthly for doing some crazy stunt that attracts attention and drama. Justin has been playing the stereo-typical rich kid teen rebellion act, and his fame and riches help him get out of a lot of occurrences that would normally end in law suits, prison, etc. In Justin’s most recent exploitation of Bill Clinton, Justin and his group of friends urinate on public property, before swearing at the ex-president while on camera. After doing so, they refer to themselves as the “Wild boys” before running away whooping and hollering. This public display of dis-obedience is Justin’s most recent middle finger to society, and the law. Justin called the president and did apologize. (11) (12)

Whether Justin actually meant his words or not, he has shown that peer pressure is more important to him than having a reputable behavior. The way Justin dresses and act’s also is not much better than Miley. You see Bieber at the awards with saggy pants, gold necklaces, sideways hats, etc. Dressing like a thug is not a crime, but it is definitely annoying for parents who have teenagers who try to replicate his style.

Also, in response to my opponent’s drug argument: let’s get something straight. I am not against the legalization of drugs, nor do I care what people do behind closed doors. If you Tvellalot smoke weed, and nobody know about it, than by all means, good luck in not getting caught. But specific to Justin Bieber: doing drugs IS against the law, and he was caught with it in his tour bus, and further admitted it publicly on national TV trying to discard it as humorous, and perfectly fine. Imagine a teenager watching this SNL skit. They just got from this that you can do drugs, and probably won’t get away with it, as well as learned that doing drugs is cool. Justin Bieber did it, and people laughed with him about it, so why can’t we?

This can convince teens that it’s okay to get into the habit of ruining their health and violating the law, because Justin did and was just fine. The act doing drugs being morally permissible or not should be beside the point; the point is it’s a habit that teens can get into that will get them in trouble from the law, and Justin endorses it.
To conclude this session of arguments, I think Justin’s crimes overall take a higher priority to Miley’s and play a worse factor on the influence of teens. I pass the debate back on to my opponent.

Speeding, is against the law despite his reason for doing it. Groping is just poor public conduct.

Argument 2: Miley is a better influence

My opponent’s main point seemed to be surrounding Miley’s promiscuity in her video’s and actions. While I agree her latest video was probably a bit of a confusing for her teenage fans, it’s message was for people to be themselves, and not care about the judgment of others. Though I think she could have made this message clear with rubbing herself against everything she touched in the video, I don’t think this video was as bad as some of the things I mentioned in the last round about Justin.

Miley’s reputation of good behavior almost supersedes her bad behavior reputation however. Miley is known for being a famous Disney start until she stopped the show “Hannah Montana” in 2011. In each of her episodes, she is confronted with problems and choices that she must choose to handle. The episodes represent her learning from her mistakes through comedy, and end in a serious manner to prove the overall value of the episode.

Ultimately, this TV series was a pretty good influence on her watchers. Miley Cyrus’s behavior in her video was quite popular, however when people think of Miley Cyrus (especially younger teenagers), do you think they will think of her years in Disney, or her one conflicting video, that kids might actually understand the value of? (On a side note, I completely agree that Miley is a hottie in that video, in a weird kind of way).

I will say that I agree that in some cases, both of these individuals probably aren’t the worst “influences” for most teenagers. Most teenagers will act in ways such as these because of their hormones, mixed with social pressure. I think the effect of television, and music is an influencing factor however, and both of these teens really do not do much for “good” influence on the teens. For older teens around the age of 16-19 for example, are likely to not take on much influence from either of these pop stars. They may follow suit with some of the bad behaviors (bad as defined by society, I should clarify), but most of that comes from other environments I think.

But I do believe both of these individuals have a larger effect on their younger audiences from the ages of 11-15. The main appeal of both pop singers is targeted for towards the younger teenagers. When they see Justin Bieber on TV threatening to fight people, committing sexual acts publicly, doing drugs, and cursing towards ex-presidents, it can be confusing and challenging to their youth and innocence.

This is where kids can get confused are we can start seeing the pop culture influences take effect on their lives. Imagine a 12 year old fan (like the one in the video I posted), being a huge Bieber fan, finding out about all of his activities. This is a person she looked up to and admired, for his musical skill and talent (her perception, not mine, trust me). Younger teenagers are confronted by this, as well as already dealing with the conflict of peer pressure and social anxiety. So is it not possible that both of these pop culture artists help in the process of influencing teenagers in negative habits? I think it definitely does. So while Justin and Miley are both Guilty of this, let’s weigh between the influences both Artists and decide who has the most negative impacts.




Almost just forfeited, that's how excruciating researching this debate is.

Let's just get into it...

Something to aspire to

Two key things I want to respond to here:
“We can look at his behavior in all the previous situations I noted, plus others that I haven't to show Bieber' s true colors”

Here is the problem, you actually compiled every single incident that I could find Beiber has been involved in, hence my accusation you're committing Misleading Vividness; that is, you've got these couple of incidents and you're implying that this is just a few of the dozens that exist when that simply isn't true.

“I think most famous singers start out small. “
This is completely irrelevant; you're essentially dismissing one of my arguments on a false pretense. Cyrus started out rich, Beiber started out poor. Cyrus is a decent singer but had the resources pre-fame to have professional instructors train her to sing. Beiber worked hard to attain his technical skills with no resources. That's the whole point.

I believe that my opponent has dropped this point, which I consider to be the very core of my entire argument.

“I don't think this does much to prove that Miley is a worse influence; just that her impact on younger teens has shifted to older ones.

Wat? Again my opponent completely dismisses my argument this time without any reasoning. The whole point of my argument was that she's producing music for an older demographic but her previous Disney work (which is still shown regularly and is still very popular) continues to build fans among children.

I believe that my opponent has inadequately addressed this point.


Justin Beibers incidents
My opponent has listed the following seven incidents:

Peeing in a mop bucket while drinking with friends at a restaurant
Cursing at paparazzi
Attacking a paparazzi
Smoking a joint
Drugs being found in his tour bus
'Groping' a fan

Two of these incidents (attacking a paparazzi and drugs being found in the tour bus) are unresolved. That is, they are 'alleged' incidents. They should not be held against him.

Leaving us with five.

Cursing at paparazzi... The context of the cursing at paparazzi incident is highly relevant. The paparazzi are saying highly inflammatory things to him just days after he was stuck with illness on stage (although he finished the show: One paparazzi can be clearly heard saying “you fvcking moron”. Beiber is only human and although he reacted inappropriately, he is constantly provoked into doing exactly what he did. Your video even calls it 'Beibers bad week (paraphrased).' Is he not entitled to a bad week? Furthermore, how are his fans going to be influenced by this behaviour?
Do you think that fans of Jimi Hendrix are going to overdose themselves on heroin to be like their idol? That isn't how influence works. Fans tend to focus irrationally on the positive. Beiber's fans are a prime example of this.

Peeing in a mop bucket... well that's just stupid. It seems to be someone from his entourage filming the incident too. I drop this point.

Smoking a joint... I've already adressed this and countered with Cyrus's clear and public support of marijuana legalisation. If that isn't good enough...
Here she is smoking a joint:
Here she is smoking a bong:

Groping a fan... I've already addressed this. There is no evidence, save for this one photo that this is anything more than an isolated accident. The fan (called Jocelyn Beiber on twitter) said this: “IM DYING HAHAHAHHAHA IT LOOKS LIKE JUSTIN’S TOUCHING MY BOOB IN THE PICTURE AHAHAHAHHA I CANT” ( )

Speeding... Dropped last round


My opponent is portraying Beiber in a way that suits his argument and is, in the process, being highly intellectually dishonest. These 5 incidents make up the entirely of his argument that Beiber is a 'bad guy'. I concede that Beiber has made some bad choices in the past year or so. Peeing in a mop bucket, speeding, responding to jerk paparazzi...
But I must ask again: How do these thing influence anyone? His hundreds of thousands of rabid fans are demonstrably stubborn in their worship. These incidents, few as they are, do nothing to alter their perception of him. Can anyone question this? Have we got a sudden string of fangirls peeing in mop buckets crying 'BEEEEIBER!!!”?

My arguments against Cyrus are few, but solid. She IS transitioning from a younger demographic to an older one. She was born with a silver spoon in her mouth.

I conclude not that Cyrus is a worse influence than Beiber per say, but that as a role model Beiber is someone that the majority of people would be able to emulate, while no-one but those already rich can emulate Cyrus. Isn't that the core of 'influence'?
Debate Round No. 3


Tvellalot's Arguments

1. Something to Aspire to

Here is the problem, you actually compiled every single incident that I could find Beiber has been involved in, hence my accusation you're committing Misleading Vividness; that is, you've got these couple of incidents and you're implying that this is just a few of the dozens that exist when that simply isn't true.

This, unfortunately, is actually false. For the sake of time I prevented myself from providing further crimes committed by Justin, and just posted the once that were known by popularity. But to prove my point, I will list examples of more of his "feats".

1. Banned at an indoor skydiving facility

Justin Bieber was at an indoor skydiving facility. He arrived close to closing hours demanding him and his friends get a chance to go even though the place was ready to shut down for the day. They agreed saying that he needed to pay 1600$. They also made him an offer that he could upload an instagram of himself making a shoutout for the company. Justin Bieber chose the second option. After being rowdy, and rude to the staff, and not even tipping the place for staying after hours to accommodate his needs, Justin Bieber failed to upload the instagram picture not upholding his end of the deal. The indoor skydiving facility banned Bieber for life from this incident! (13)

2. Illegally brought pet monkey to Germany

This one is pretty self explanatory. See the link for more details. Also watch the videos in each link as they give more background on the incidents. (14)

3. Posted a pic of him drinking to instagram.

Justin bieber only 19 years old, posted a picture of him drinking to the Internet. A crime for someone underage. such as himself. (15)

4. More Fighting

Justin Bieber got into a scuffle with his neighbor who was concerned about the loud partying and music Bieber was constantly displaying. Justin Bieber even went as far as to make physical contact and threats to his neighbor. (16)

5. More sneaking

Justin Beiber tries to sneak into a night club under age. (17) This apparently doesn't stop him, as later he attempts to sneak Jaden Smith into club as well. Keep in mind Jaden is only 14 at the time. This is both irresponsible and wrong. (18)

For sake of argument space, I am going to stop here. Unfortunately, there are many more instances I could find of Bieber's crimes. These aren't isolated incidents; It appears Justin Beiber has a problem following rules. Even if these were just Isolated incidents, however, they still by far exceed the crimes of Miley Cyrus (which are arguably crimes in the first place), making him a worse influence.

Starting out small.

This is another argument that really doesn't effect the debate I feel. I didn't focus that much attention to this, and ended the argument with what was important; aspiration factors don't influence factors. I doubt that teens will be less negatively effected by Bieber just because he started out poor. Most people don't think about that. They see two popular teen pop stars, and their actions; and most of the time will think they are cool for the things they do, given their popular position in society. This is where the line of negative influence is drawn.

I understand my opponents point completely. My counter was basically that here good deeds from this show continuing for so long, are more likely what she will be remembered by, than this one music video that my opponent cites. Also if teens look for the meaning behind the video she made, they can probably actually find more good influence. Again the video is all about embracing being yourself, and who you are.

My arguments

1. Justin Bieber's Crimes.

Two of these incidents (attacking a paparazzi and drugs being found in the tour bus) are unresolved. That is, they are 'alleged' incidents.

I would say a picture of a joint in your hands, is a pretty resolved issue.

And do you really think all these fight accusations are false? There are multiple cases of him trying to hurt people, evidence that he hates paparazzi, and a video of him clearly trying to fight someone. Bad week or not, this guy is freaking violent.

1. Aggression towards the paparazzi

My opponents main rebuttal to this is that Justin was only re-acting to rude people. I acknowledged this, and have since the beginning of this debate. He had a reason for doing what he did, but does that make what he did a "good excuse"? Remember both of these individuals make 1000X's the amount of money that most Americas in their lifetime. Their Job and everything they do is an influence on teens; All of their money comes from their public public appearance and growing popularity. With this being said, they should be mindful of how they react to the public. Is it so hard to turn the other cheek to someone who calls you a rude name, when you know you have more money, power and freedom than you? The fact that he re-acts to people with violence only adds insult to injury. Suck it up Bieber, you have already won the fight by being rich and pretty.

Do you think that fans of Jimi Hendrix are going to overdose themselves on heroin to be like their idol? That isn't how influence works. Fans tend to focus irrationally on the positive. Bieber's fans are a prime example of this.

Where do you think that all the bad habits teens get into now a days even come from? Do you think they just made up the saggin' pants, the slang words, and the crazy behaviors? Maybe some, but if you idolized someone enough, and thought everything they did was cool, and were naive enough to believe it, wouldn't you replicate their actions? This is why teens do a lot of the stupid crap they do.

2. Peeing in a mop bucket

My opponent has conceded this point.

3. Smoking a joint

Let us concur that this point counts against both teens given my opponents evidence.

4. Groping a Fan

The fan may have been too naive to understand what was going on. But the way Bieber's hand was cupped in the picture looks like he clearly had different intentions. It looks like he was trying to go for a sexual move to try and dis-guise it as innocent.

5. Speeding

I didn't drop this point; My opponent made a justification for why Justin speeding was okay. My point was again that his reasons didn't matter. Speeding is against the law, despite his hate of paparazzi.


Overall, we need to weigh which person's actions are worse. I have pointed out more than a few of Justin's. So far all we have on Miley is that she was a bit weird in a music video, and that she smoked a Joint. Justin is guilty of both of these and much much more, as I have shown.
I think I have won this debate because ultimately I have not only found more things that Justin has done bad, but the gravity of his actions are much worse. Justin has had more court cases than I can count, and has paid most of them off. But what teens are learning from this is that they can do crazy things, and can get away with them. The harsh and simple truth is that they can't though. If they do these things that Bieber does, they can find themselves in trouble. Bieber has exceed the age where he can get away certain things; he is an adult. Teens must learn that they cannot replicate his actions.

With that said, I wish my opponent luck in the voting period. This was fun, but I hope I have proved myself up a step on ryuu's ladder. Thanks!



Again, let's just get this over with. Funny story; since I use Google for everything and Youtube is owned by Google, the research I did for this debate (watching a fvckload of Bieber videos) has infultrated my other services. I was on Google Play last night, and Bieber was fvcking everywhere. I don't want to see his muppet head ever again.

My opponent and I have clearly taken different approaches to this debate. Content to simply list things that Bieber has done wrong, my opponent would paint Bieber as some kind of bad-arse rebel with a string of serious incidents under his belt. Here again, in his final round, he lists a bunch of new incidents he's scrounged up to demonstrate his point. Bieber is a bad guy.
I have already countered this approach in two ways. First of all, I have already given an excellent example of the sort of GOOD things Bieber does, which my opponent never addressed. If he had of course, I could have listed a dozen other things Bieber does for charity to further cement this point. I don't want to take advantage of his inability to respond now though, so I won't. Does Beiber acting like an over privileged teenager completely shadow his charity work? I think not.
Second, I have already stressed, ad nauseum, that Biebers 'crimes' are minor at worst and that they are irrelevant anyway because his fans, that is, the people who would be influenced by him, consider him flawless anyway. They will always focus solely on the good factors. This point too, was completely ignored.
So, why is Miley Cyrus a worse influence than Justin Bieber?
It's simple. She isn't. They're both mediocre at best in terms of controversy and rebellious behaviour. Sid Vicious is a bad influence. Ozzy Osbourne is a bad influence. These cookie cutter pop stars are vanilla pudding dressed up as out of control by a media that caters to muppets.
Don't misinterpret me though. I still win this debate. My arguments still stand, no matter how much my opponent tries to argue around them. Influence goes two ways and if Bieber indeed worked hard to acquire his skills (objectively true) and if he did indeed grow up poor (objectively true) then he is both hard working and easy to relate to. That makes him a better influence than Cyrus who is, by proxy a worse influence.

I am not too fussed about winning this debate. It would be disheartening to my opponent for this tournament to end prematurely. However, I think all of my best points were either completely dropped or no addressed correctly while I have explained in detail why the crux of my opponents argument (Bieber has done some stupid sh!t) is irrelevant.
The debate comes down to this; do you think that Bieber's good outweighs his bad? Do you think that his history (hard working; comes from tribulation) is going to be instantly forgotten by the people who are most likely to be influenced by him, namely, his fans? I think not. Perhaps we should have defined influence more thoroughly to begin with. Perhaps I have clutching at straws and arguing semantics. I will leave that up to you, the voters.

If you think I made sense, vote Con.

Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
I wonder if I'd have won if we'd done this debate AFTER the VMAs...
Posted by RocketEngineer 7 years ago
Yeah more votes would have been nice... Still a fun debate though! Thanks Tvellalott.
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
Voting was pathetic, but GG Rocket.
Posted by Muted 7 years ago
@tvellalot, sorry, didn't see your comment earlier. What I meant by that was that a contrast between the social effects of JB's behavior compared to MC's behavior was only weakly presented. In the first rounds, it is contrasted a lot stronger, but at the end the contrast blurs a lot.
Posted by TUF 7 years ago
BTW TV, reporting vote bombs doesn't really do anything other than airmax trying to find someone to counter vote it anyway.
Posted by TUF 7 years ago
close debate, so I think the offset of a one point differential is pretty fair. Great job to both debaters, and good luck to whoever ends up winning this!
Posted by TUF 7 years ago
I knew nothing about until I read this debate. After reading this debate, I kind of wish the pr1ck would get stuck in the desert for a week to fend and survive for himself. I would definitely drop the point about the "boob grabbing". The photo looks like it was clearly trying to manipulate Justin"s image. I highly doubt Justin had any intentions for "harassment" as Rocket defines it (this was kind of a silly point). I thought the point about Justin trying to get in fights was funny. I would love to watch the kid get his lights knocked out. That aside, plenty of other famous actors, directors, and singers have acted aggressively towards annoying paparazzi. So him cursing out someone and getting a bit angry, is to be expected from a teenager. I won"t count this as point against Bieber, but I will count the evidence of physical violence and speeding against him. Getting angry isn"t an excuse to break the law.

Okay so to break this down: I think TV argued as well as he could given the context of his argument. And I agree with him that both of these individuals probably don"t really affect teen influence much. Bieber especially is already dis-liked by more than half of the nation. His popularity seems to somehow remain strong however. I think there are much worse pop influences out their than both of these kids.

I think that TV had a little bit harder of a position though on miley. From my knowledge of Cyrus, and the evidence in this debate, it really doesn"t look like she is all that bad outside of a few incidents. Bieber seems to have a lot more behavioral problems that you seen in typical douche bag teenagers. Over all I think Rocket had a stronger case against Bieber than Tv had against Miley. Tv was very strong in his rebuttals, but "on balance" I think there is quite a bit more piled against Bieber from Rocket"s side.

I will award Rocket the source points for arguments, and give Tv the S/G point (because he was generally better in this category). This was
Posted by TUF 7 years ago

I am going to keep the arguments point as a counter to Fracks, but use the other points as part of my own RFD.

First off, I am pretty impressed with the quality of this debate despite my original sigh from reading the resolution. I definitely know a little bit more about both individuals from reading this debate. Coming into this debate, I was kind of biased towards Tvellalot"s side, because of her recent music video. Not only was it odd and suggestive, but it completely contradicted Miley"s appearance in her Disney Channel Television show. I think the fact that TV pointed this out, was a good work in his favor. The main difference in both of these pop stars, is that Miley Cyrus coming from a Disney show, has already made an impression on kids. Her influence is supposed to be a good one based on the values she is teaching in all of her Disney shows. So coming from a Disney setting to this more adult setting, is kind of a big shock to Miley Fans.

The hard thing is judging a winner, is doing what rocket says and "weighing" things. Because both of their negative influences are on a scale of varying levels. Justin Bieber doesn"t come from the same setting as Miley does, so his standards are very different. The things he does aren"t as conflicting because he isn"t meet some moral point of interest. In this way, you can say that Miley creates a "hypocritical" look for herself from making this video. I was tempted to give Tvellalot arguments for this point alone. But I am forcing myself to look objectively at the issue.

Realistically, I am not sure if teens really interpret Miley as someone is who supposed to uphold good behavioral standards though. I had to think about this, and I decided that most teens that watched her Disney show probably took more of the show for it"s entertainment value, than it"s life value. And ultimately, Miley is just representing a character not herself.

But I have to admit that there is a lot of things that Justin Bieber has
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
Muted; 'I don't see a strong comparison between the singers'. Wat?
Posted by tvellalott 7 years ago
I wish people would stop worrying about vote bombing and start worrying about actually voting. If you see a vote bomb, report it.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by TUF 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments + a counter to Frack's vote.
Vote Placed by Muted 7 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Both Pro and Con have accepted a burden to argue in the first round. Pro, implicitly. Con, explicitly. I found the Pro R2 hard to read because of the S/G errors, in fact, this plagues most of his rounds. A proposed solution to this problem would be to take the time to review and edit one?s own work before submitting. One does not have to write the draft in the text boxes provided. One can, like myself, write on other mediums such as Google Drive, and edit it there before transferring it to DDO. I will have to be biased towards Pro because in the opening round Con concedes the speeding argument. The rest of the debate is a back and forth with no one really making more convincing arguments. However, I will give the arguments to Pro. I notice that neither debater really fulfills their BoP. Nowhere in the debate do I see any strong contrast between the two singers.
Vote Placed by FrackJack 7 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: First, Pro had to do the proving. Con did his share of the bargain by showing that they were both equal in a bad matter.
Vote Placed by xXCryptoXx 7 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Terrible RFD. I'll counter until I'm told to remove it due to him writing a better RFD.
Vote Placed by PatriotPerson 7 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I continued to agree with Pro and everything else just went by my thoughts on who did better in said category.

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