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4 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
3 Points

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,096 times Debate No: 52873
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)




Hello. I'm bored. So con can choose whatever topic he wants and the side I'm on. I can alter the topic if it seems too extreme or biased. You can even do a troll argument, but beware, I'm prepared!
RULES: you may not do a topic at or beyond college level of education. Because I have not yet reached those levels of education yet.

Round one: says what topic, which side
round two: I change the topic if needed, opening statements by both sides
round 3: rebuttals
round 4: moar rebuttals
round 5: conclusion, no new arguments!


I will be arguing that Mario will never beat Sonic the Hedgehog in a fight.


1. Neither debater is allowed to give cases in which there is a sure way to know who would win. Posting YouTube videos of this happening is also not allowed.

2. All example fights created by debaters or posted from YouTube must have the outcome resulting with both Mario's and Sonic's free will.

3. Mario and Sonic will be allowed to use power ups, but cannot get help from their friends or get help from each other's enemies. They will also be allowed to use each other's power-ups.

4. Both characters will be allowed to use all of their techniques.

5. All types of fights are allowed.

6. All arguments must be scientifically valid.

7. All arguments concerning the scientific probability of their abilities and feats are irrelevant.

These rules are not meant to twist the debate to my advantage. They are simply meant to keep the result accurate.

My opponent will be the first to argue.
Debate Round No. 1


I will argue that Mario will in some situations beat Sonic the Hedgehog in a fight, since you said "never".
Now, we all know Sonic is very arrogant and impatient. When facing Robotnik/Eggman, he usually tries to insult/talk bad of him a bit before proceeding to destroy him. If there is something that needs to be done, he'd rather rush off than wait. Mario, on the other hand, it's very hard to tell his personality, but from the movie, we can infer he is loyal, brave, and helps others when they need it.

-Mario can kill his enemies simply by jumping on them. Exceptions are shell turtle, Bowser and other hard-core enemies. I doubt this will be helpful in this battle, so let's cross it off.
-Mario can power-up by eating mushrooms, making him harder to kill. This would be pretty helpful, considering he'd be practically invincible if he gets loads and loads of mushrooms and eats them when he's beaten up.
-Mario can obtain fire power by eating a sunflower. This would be very helpful, and very damaging to Sonic if Sonic fails to use his defenses in time.
-Mario can become invincible using his star power. And defeat anyone who comes into his way. However, Sonic can turn invincible as well, so they technically tie in this.
-Mario can become insanely gigantic using a giant mushroom and crush all platform that comes into his way. Unfortunately, sonic's invincibility can still fight him off.
-Mario has tiny but extremely powerful walking bombs, as shown in the movie. Sonic would be totally unprepared for these and be extremely confused. "Ha! You think that would harm me? You dumb plumber!" He would insult, and be blown to pieces.

In conclusion, as long as Mario has enough stars, giant mushrooms and mushrooms in his inventory, he would be unbeatable. And if he figured out Sonic's arrogance, he would use it against him and sneak attack using his tiny bomb. As you can see, in this peticular scenario, Mario has defeated Sonic. However, had Sonic been careful and on his guard the whole battle, he'd either run away from the bomb or throw it away. It is possible that Sonic can win in this case, or, a forever standoff, but Mario can also win.
Onto you con.


Counterpoint 1: "Mario can power-up by eating mushrooms, making him harder to kill... He gets loads of mushrooms when he's beaten up," Sonic could easily counter this tactic by waiting for Mario to get bigger, and then do a striking dash and run between Mario's legs, then collect a lot of the mushrooms before Mario could get them. Another possible way Sonic could find his way around the mushroom tactic is by waiting until he was just he right distance from Mario and then use his strong legs to jump onto Mario's shoe and run into his overalls, and then run around in his clothes until he returns to his normal size. If there were too many mushrooms for this tactic to work for long, Sonic could simply run to the back of Mario's shoe and kick himself off of it for a boost and then collect enough mushrooms to match his size to Mario's. Therefore, his would not help Mario win by any means.

Counterpoint 2: "Mario can obtain firepower by eating a sun flower," that would also be useless. Because Sonic is fifteen, he is old enough to know that if he catches fire, he should roll, not run. Because Mario probably would not think of this, his guard would be low enough to leave him vulnerable to Sonic doing a spin dash, then rolling on his side. Rolling that quickly on his side would allow him to either knock Mario on either his back or his belly OR grab him and throw him at something.

Counterpoint 3: "Mario has tiny but extremely powerful walking bombs... Sonic would be completely unprepared for this and be extremely confused," actually, Sonic is not afraid of anything. And as I stated earlier, Sonic's legs are very strong from all of his running. Therefore, he could easily kick all of Mario's bob-ombs straight back to him, no matter how many he had.

Counterpoint 4: "Mario...would... Sneak attack using his tiny bomb..." Actually, Sonic's never-give-up attitude would drive him to think that the fight was not get over when he saw that Mario had disappeared, and would go Super Sonic just to make things more interesting. As Super Sonic, he is invulnerable and much faster and can project chaos energy, plus he is much more acrobatic, can fight hand-to-hand [1]. Also, there is a chance he would become Super Sonic just before Mario dropped his bomb, thus alerting Sonic of Mario's position. Since he is much faster and invincible in his super form, the bomb would not harm him, and Sonic could therefore easily catch Mario, and since he also has enhanced strength, augmented power, and the ability to grind as Super Sonic [1], he could kill Mario in plenty of different ways. He could repeatedly crash into him, he could grab him, and then gain enough speed flying in the air, and then throw Mario into space or into the ground or at something. Or he could become Darkspine Sonic because he is greedy for thrills, angry at Mario for not giving him a good fight, and also sad that he didn't get a good fight. As Darkspine Sonic, he has pyrokinesis, hand-to-hand combat powers, and of course, enhanced strength [2].


Debate Round No. 2


"Sonic is not afraid of anything"....I never said Sonic was afraid of that tiny bomb. I was inferring because the bomb is so tiny, Sonic doubt it can do any damage to him, and laughs at Mario for his puny bomb. However, the bomb could explode before Sonic could throw it back at mario, stunning Sonic and giving Mario time to throw his fire flowers and jump on Sonic so as to damage the poor hedgehog. As for Darkspine Sonic or Super Sonic, Mario could just eat an invincible star and just wait. Both these invincible forms would be at a forever standstill.

Mario's strongness--mario is extremely strong. If sonic was rolled up and tried to jump and smash Mario, and Mario jumped up...who would win? The outcome is unclear, but we know Mario can smash coins out of bricks and not break his bones, so he must be incredibly strong! Sonic would damage himself in this "roll-up smash" move, allowing recovery time for Mario to damage Sonic even further.

Now, I was really busy, but now that I have time, I can analyze further. You say Mario can NEVER win against sonic. How about we look into every game ever and analyze their power ups.
So...what if they were fighting in water? Mario could use his frog suit. What about up high in the clouds? Mario could just use the P-wing and fly away, never to be seen again, and Sonic couldn't chase him! And what about the Cape Feather? It "Slows Mario or Luigi's descent from the air, can fly, damages enemies around while Spin Jumping." And what about the ice flower? Sure, Dark Sonic has pyrokinesis, but is it more powerful than Mario's ice flower? Nothing proves this.

Sonic's fastness--sure, sonic is about the fastest character in any game, but what if Mario uses the Slow Flower? Then, Mario can easily dodge Sonic's hit, as time is slowed down tremendously.

Oh, and did I mention the "Invincibility Leaf"? The description is "Mario or Luigi transform into White Tanooki Mario or White Kitsune Luigi, which grants him all the powers of the Super Leaf as well as unlimited invincibility." I believe this will be the crucial powerup Mario will use, making him undefeatable. Therefore Sonic cannot win in this particular setup. His super sonic will run out of time, and Mario would eventually beat Sonic down. In conclusion Mario can win Sonic in some cases.
Back to you!


Counterpoint 1: Sonic... Laughs at Mario for his puny bomb," perhaps, but the bo-bomb has feelings and would probably think Sonic was laughing at IT instead of Mario and then walk away crying, plausibly either simply far enough away so as not to damage Sonic OR to Mario, being too cocky to notice that the bomb is walking towards him. "Mario could just eat an invincible star and wait," Mario's invincible form only lasts for a few brief moments, while Sonic remains Super Sonic for a much longer period of time. He'd probably be like "pfft I'm gonna win his fight anyway, so I'll just get som more rings so I can stay Super Sonic for the ending," and then get those rings, and Mario would no longer be invincible. Even if there was another invincible star nearby, Sonic could simply dart straight into him, thus stopping him from eating it. He also does not need rings to remain Darkspine Sonic.

Counterpoint 2: "Mario could use his frog suit," true, but you forgot that Sonic, Darkspine or not, can use either a speed break to turn himself into a speeding projectile, thus not only knocking Mario clean out of the water, but also tearing his frog suit off. "Mario could use the P-Wing... And Sonic couldn't chase him!" Actually, you forgot that his super form grants him flight and he therefore COULD chase Mario. As for potentially running out of rings, he would be too fast. Slowing down time with a Slow Flower would also be pointless because of Sonic's speed break ability. He could also use a Time Break to slow Mario down

Counterpoint 3: "What about the ice flower? Sure, Dark Sonic has pyrokinesis, but is it more powerful than Mario's ice flower?" Actually it is. Although Sonic needs a type of energy in order to do time breaks and speed breaks, this energy restores itself. Even if he was in the path of one of Mario's ice blasts, he would already be going so fast as to have enough remaining inertia to fly through the ice block. Even if you can disprove this, Sonic would still be able to go much faster with a Speed Break. Nothing can stop Sonic when he is going at his top speed. Since Sonic constantly regains the energy, this would render he ice flower utterly useless.

Counterpoint 4: Your argument about Mario using the invincibility leaf is invalid, because first of all Sonic could choose to be Darkspine Sonic, then use a speed break to form a cloud of dust around Mario, then swoop down to clear the dust around a dirt-blinded, coughing Mario, and then wait until he had regained enough energy and fly circles around Mario repeatedly, tearing his Tanooki suit off, then do a speed break to ram Mario straight into a wall. As Super Sonic, he could do the same thing, but without a time break, OR he could run around randomly, thereby overwhelming Mario and making his head spin, allowing Sonic enough time to dart down from well above Earth into Mario, which would cause a sonic explosion, sending Mario plummeting down to the Earth's core, burning the Invincibility leaf. The gravity would spin Mario around, making it implausible for him to accurately dart through the hole because he would be so dizzy. Therefore, if there is technically a winner, it is Sonic.

Counterpoint 5: as for your argument about Mario's strength, Sonic would be able to use a Time Break to figure out what Mario was trying to do, or he could simply go so fast that Mario could not stop him with a Speed Break. He could also use a homing attack, which hits so fast that Mario would at least not prepared for the first one.
Debate Round No. 3


Darkspine argument: well, sonic usually never turns dark when facing Dr. Eggman, an evil genius with 400 IQ, why should he turn dark whilst facing Mario, a random plumber?
Now, even if Sonic decides to turn dark, Mario can STILL stop him and render him useless using power-ups such as the Sleepy Sheep, which puts all of his enemies to sleep for an amount of time. Another power-up Mario could use is the Stop Watch, which paralyzes enemies. Both of these power-ups would leave Sonic the Hedgehog entirely vulnerable, thus allowing Mario to punch away, defeating Sonic even if Sonic turns into a .

Oh, and since Sonic the Hedgehog and Mario both have the ability to obtain invincibility, but if they can both become invincible, their battle would be a battle of immortals, rendering neither of them victorious. At this point, I would like to remove invincibility from the debate, as it is becoming an annoying point in this debate that really isn't helpful.

Plus, Mario could use a lightning bolt from Mario Kart 64 to shrink Sonic the Hedgehog and inevitably slow him down leaving him vulnerable to Mario's stomp or hammer smash. Mario could use a Speed Flower (instead of a slow flower) so that he could catch Sonic the Hedgehog and squish the stuffing out of him. These are just a few of the more than 1,000 things Mario has in his arsenal.

In addition, it wouldn't matter which world they fight in, whether it's Mario's or Sonic the Hedgehog's, Mario has a slight advantage:

A. Mario's worlds are generally square being a jumping platform game. Sonic the Hedgehog can only truly express his powers on round levels where he can roll at high speeds.

B. In Sonic the Hedgehog's worlds, surfaces are usually rounded, making it a prime environment for Sonic the Hedgehog to perform, but Mario also has the ability to sit down on a hill and slide down at a high velocity to take out his opponents.

So in Mario's world, Mario has the upper-hand, and in Sonic the Hedgehog's world, they can still only tie at the most due to the environments.


Counterpoint 1: "Sleepy Sheep... Stop Watch... Both of these power-ups would leave Sonic the Hedgehog entirely vulnerable," not if he could respond quickly enough. He would probably be immune to Sleepy Sheeps as (1). He is always wide awake during an adventure or a fight and (2) Sleepy Sheeps do not work on all enemies. As for the stopwatch, Sonic has fast reflexes and could figure out in a flash when he saw Mario reach into his pocket that he was going for one of his most important weapons, and then he would use a Time Break to slow time down and run up to Mario before he could get it, and then snatch it out of his hand and stop the Time Break, then either smash it or freeze Mario with it.

Counterpoint 2: "...Mario could use a lightning bolt to shrink Sonic and inevitably slow him down leaving him vulnerable to Mario's stomp or hammer smash," he would be, but Sonic can boost to go faster, and you are also forgetting that he can slow time down with a Time Break. These together should be more than enough than outlast either of the power-ups mentioned in that section of your argument and the effect of the lightning bolt. This would also leave enough duration in the Time Break for Sonic to boost straight into Mario OR do a Homing attack on him, and then end the time break and keep Homing Attacking him to death. As for the 1,000+ weapons in Mario's arsenal? During the time break, Sonic could shake everything out of Mario's pockets, then get speed and use it to kick Mario far away but end the time break in the middle of the run, and then run back to the pile of Mario's weapons and set fire to them by running in place on them, creating enough friction to set them on fire, thus rendering them all useless by the time Mario gets back.

Counterpoint 3: "Sonic the Hedgehog can only truly express his powers in round levels..." Actually, there are two powers you forgot about: the Homing Attack and the Time Break. Sonic could use the Homing Attack for some cheap shots and to make up for his inability to use his speed to his advantage. There are also tons of different tactics he could use a Time Break for. He could kick Mario face down on the ground, then hide in a warp pipe, then listen for Mario and exit when Mario is near enough, and pop up behind Mario out of the pipe and surprise attack him. Or he could wait for Mario to get his hammer, use a Time Break, and grab Mario's hammer and then whack a slowed-down Mario with it repeatedly. Or he could do a striking dash on him, and if Mario wasn't bleeding in five seconds, he would both literally and figuratively be on fire. He could throw Mario straight down a pit. He could sneak a bomb out of Mario's pocket, and then leave it there and go into a warp pipe, then dash off. By the end of the Time Break, Sonic would be so far away that Mario could not see him, but would look for him, and he would not notice the bomb, and it would explode and kill him.

Counterpoint 4: You argued that Mario can sit down and slide on round surfaces. Even if this tactic worked on Sonic, however, he could use a Time Break to slow Mario down, leaving him vulnerable to a Homing Attack.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4


Okay, so you seem very very dependent on time break. Have I not already stated that Mario has slow flower and Speed flower? Yes, I have, so they're not new arguments. As for Sonic sleeping, well, just look at this photo below and tell me whether he's sleeping or not. Besides, nothing has ever hinted that Sonic is unaffected by any of Mario's powerups that affect other enemies.

And again, you didn't even bother rebutting my statement in the first round concerning Sonic's arrogance. How could he possibly know that Mario was gonna do something important by reaching into his pocket? Mario might as well have just been extremely unnerved by the awkward situation of facing an enemy he had never seen before, and just stuffed his hands in his pocket in confusion.
As for the time break, it uses up a "soul gauge" that requires pearls and defeating enemies. As the latter is unavailible, the only way for sonic to do his epic ability that would defeat Mario is collecting pearls. This would seem extremely suspicious to Mario. I mean, who would go collecting pearls while within a death battle? Mario could use a mega-mushroom, making him insanely gignatic, blocking the pearls, making it impossible for Sonic to use his Time Break Ability. Without Time Break, your arguments hold nothing and Sonic is dead. Game over.
Vote pro.


"Without Time Break, your arguments hold nothing and Sonic is dead," thanks for the tip. Sonic or Perhaps more likely his friend Tails would sneak pearls into the mushrooms, and therefore might not actually have to run around collecting pearls as he could have snuck pearls into all of the mushrooms before the fight. Another plausible scenario in which Sonic could get pearls without running off or alerting Mario too soon is that Bowser surprise attacks them both in a ship that they can only handle together. As you claim, "...time break... Require defeating enemies," Sonic could defeat a lot of enemies just with his speed and Homing Attack. By defeating all those enemies, his soul gauge would undoubtedly fill all the way up, giving him more than enough of it to use it advantageously. Another scenario is that Sonic repeatedly hits a block containing many pearls, and he collects them before Mario can. Mario cannot collect them because he is not only too slow, but also does not know what the pearls from "Sonic and he Secret Rings" are. By the time he figured Sonic out, it would be too late. Because Sonic is overall not that much of an idiot, his hubris would have little influence on the fight. You also never rebutted my "Homing Attack" argument. Conclusively, it is game over for Mario, and your arguments are all invalid.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Loveshismom 6 years ago
I never argued against it. Besides, you also made a new argument in round five, and that was that Mario had ways to prevent Sonic from using Time Break, and without it my argument held nothing.
Posted by 9spaceking 6 years ago
sneak pearls into the mushrooms...LOL WUT??
You never said anything about previous preparation being available. that's an entirely new argument. -.-
Posted by Loveshismom 6 years ago
I will be taking he pro side.
Posted by edibleshrapnel 6 years ago
Yes 1historygenius, because saying anything enough times will magically make things come true!
Posted by 1Historygenius 6 years ago
Wanna do Reagan vs. FDR? Who was a better president?
Posted by 1Historygenius 6 years ago
Wanna do Reagan vs. FDR? Who was a better president?
Posted by 1Historygenius 6 years ago
Wanna do Reagan vs. FDR? Who was a better president?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Imhellspawn2 6 years ago
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Total points awarded:43 
Reasons for voting decision: I would have to say mario and sonic are both small but Mario needs powerup's while sonic could go into a ball and play bowling with mario as the pins

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