The Instigator
Redstone
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Thoht
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Preferred pronouns

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,256 times Debate No: 119695
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (31)
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Redstone

Con

So in modern society the transgender community has begun to be accepted as a part of society. With accepting these ideologies, You also accept the ideas of preferred pronouns. Apparently these pronouns are extremely important and are seen as such. I think as the con that they are not needed and it should be acceptable to refer to someone as their inherit sex rather than what they think they are. This is because transgenderism is a mental illness called gender dysphoria. Treating people with a mental illness as someone who is not by letting them control how they and others perceive their sex either by surgery or just by words themselves, Like pronouns, Does not help the situation and ignoring a mental illness could only cause it to become worse. Also, Another problem this brings up is how valid a persons thoughts and feelings are to anothers. Say a transgender person prefers to be called he, But the other person thinks they should be referred to as she. In this case, Whos feelings are more valid and which is correct.
Thoht

Pro

Much of what you said is at least a bit inaccurate.

1. Historically, The condition was known first as Gender Identity Disorder (GID). It was published in the 1990 ICD-10 from the WHO and the DSM-4 published in 1993. These are more or less the two most recognized medical classification publications. Now, The ICD-11 and the DSM-5 published in 2018 and 2013 respectively have removed GID and now the ICD-11 classifies it as a Sexual Health Condition. Gender Dysphoria is NOT classified as a mental illness. GID was. The top medical classification publications now call it "gender dysphoria" and a sexual health condition. So you're wrong here. You can say your OPINION is that GID was the proper classification. You really don't have the qualifications for most people to take your opinion over the larger medical health community.

The reasoning behind it is that mental disorders have several significant connotations.

1a. You are mentally unstable. Children are unsafe around you unsupervised.

1b. Legal problems in many countries. Some may give legal power over you to others.

On top of that, Much of the pain associated with "mental disorders" are caused by simply having the disorder. Much of the mental disorder that may accompany gender dysphoria comes from society at large, Not the people themselves.

Trans people are not less mentally proficient in any way. They don't deserve the connotations that occur largely because of the classification of 'disorder, ' and not because of the actual symptoms of the condition.

So if you'd like to continue calling it a mental disorder, You're attempting to say you're better qualified than the medical professionals who agreed upon the DSM-V and the ICD-11.

If the problem with gender dysphoria can be solved by changing the body of the individual, Then there is a cure. It is not then a mental disorder, But a body disorder. The body is what is wrong, Not the mind. Either way, It is easier to change the body not the mind. You can supply no proof that gender dysphoria can be cured by addressing it as a mental health issue, Where the evidence is, Even when we can't completely transition people yet, In the favor of addressing it as a body or sexual health condition. The difference between this and say, Anorexia, Is that transitioning to female would not be unhealthy. If we gave anorexic people thinner bodies they would die, Easily.

2. There is a clear analogy to draw here. Homosexuality was a mental illness in the DSM originally. It became "sexual orientation disturbance" in 1973 and then was removed in 1987 from the book entirely. Originally, People said the issue was best treated as a mental illness and sent them to sexual reorientation clinics et cetera, Which have no proven results. Everyone tried to pray the gay away.

Nowadays, Since it is not treated as a mental illness, Gays have come out of the closet (at least in countries where this has been recognized), Have largely stopped killing themselves, Et cetera. There is still significant stress that is caused by being homosexual in certain families. Many are disowned for this, But largely less than before.

Trans people currently have it as gays did prior to the late 1900s. As people become more accepting and treat it as a sexual health condition rather than a mental disorder, The societal stigma will begin to disappear and eventually the technology we may have at our disposal could make it a non-issue, Particularly the more simple transitioning between the sexes becomes, And the easier it is to reverse the transition.

3. The only way I'm wrong about the above is if those with gender dysphoria continue to commit suicide even after transitioning and after societal stigma is erased. I doubt you have studies that will say as much, But you may surprise me.

If transitioning does cure or alleviate the negative effects, Then it has harmed no one just like gays having sex with each other hurts no one. Then your point is completely invalid. It is not 'ignoring a mental illness' if treating it as a sexual condition and transitioning people results in superior outcomes to treating it as a mental illness.

4. You currently have no problem, I assume, Using people's preferred Nouns.

If I tell you my name is Michael and you insist on calling me Mike then you are, At best, Being a dick. If I tell you it is quite important to me that you call me Michael and not Mike, I presume you'd not be a dick and continue to call me Mike.

In a similar fashion, If you know someone is a trans and know their birth name was Michael but you insist on calling them Michael or Mike instead of their new name Michelle, You are similarly a dick, But now you are actually causing them real pain because now you are refusing to acknowledge who they are.

In the first example, Calling Michael 'Mike', You would probably agree that the person is being a dick.

In the second example, Calling Michelle "Michael" or "Mike", Would you not agree the person is also being a dick?

We can currently legally change our preferred Nouns. Few if any people have a problem with this.

Do you also refuse to use people's preferred Nouns if you know their biological sex doesn't match what you believe their chosen name suggests their biological sex is?

Can you not see how situation 1 is less stressful than situation 2 is for the aggrieved party? You aren't simply denying their noun, You are denying who they are.

5. To draw a similarity,

You currently have a problem using people's preferred Pronouns.

Now, A big difference here is that it is extremely rare, As far as percentage of the population goes, For people's preferred pronouns to differ largely from what their external features would suggest. Trans people are largely going to try to 'pass' as a woman or a man. In the case of trans people, It actually takes effort for you to NOT call them 'he' or 'she' as will be their preference. In general, Their preference will almost always match their outwards appearance.

Your argument is multifaceted, But each facet is flawed.

5a. You say that calling them by their pronouns could make their condition 'worse. ' You have to inform me how someone who is disgusted by their body can be made to feel worse about it by you acknowledging them as what the prefer to be. You think people will reverse their disgust if you call them by their biological sex? Please inform me of 1 time this has ever happened. In reality, I can show you thousands of cases where this causes people stress. Personally, If I thought someone had a mental illness I wouldn't be intentionally antagonizing them and causing them stress. I'd leave the curing to professional psychologists, Who in this case mostly suggest the opposite of what you suggest. What you're doing is, At least in your view, Going up to a person with anorexia and calling them a whale. Would you view antagonizing an anorexic person as a dick move? I submit you would.

5b. If you don't know a transwoman is biologically male and she walks up to you, How much internal stress does it call you to call them 'she? ' I submit none.

If you know a person is biologically male and walks up to you in a dress and is the picture of femininity, How much energy does it take for you to resist calling them 'she' as every part of your mind naturally would, But instead resist that and call them 'he' knowing that it will cause them stress. From your point of view, You think this person has a mental illness. You are aware that you are not a medical professional capable of curing their illness, And you know that they will be hurt by what you say.

What difference do you think there is between you insisting on addressing them by their biological sex rather than their outwards gender? Who they feel they are.

How important do you think Chromosomes are? Do you test the chromosomes of people you meet prior to addressing them as him/her or do you take their outwards appearance and use what first comes to mind? How many people have you actually asked what chromosomes they have prior to addressing them? One?

"Sex" refers to biological sex. "Gender" has recently been redefined to refer to any number of societal expectations, Stereotypes, Et cetera. The English language is 100% made from made-up words. We have redefined ALL of these words in the past. What is your argument for why gender and sex should both mean 'biological sex? '

We're asking that pronouns not be linked to sex, But to gender. If we don't want to live life as a 'boy' and we make ourselves the picture of femininity going as far to remove genitals and undergo hormone therapy to look female, What sense does it make to call that person a 'boy? ' None. You can still call them biologically male. It is important that doctors know that and other people know that sometimes. Their gender is whatever set of norms and stereotypes they want to live by.

Now, Referring to the picture of femininity as a 'boy' seems really strange, Particularly when they don't want you to, Particularly when you can't possibly know their chromosomes.

Again, Why are you placing such importance on chromosomes rather than what that person feels? You aren't valuing your own personal feelings over their feelings. You are saying that addressing what chromosomes a person has is more important than addressing what they personally feel they are.

Someone who says "I personally feel like your name is Mike" to someone who prefers to be called "Michael" can be said to be valuing their own personal feelings over the other person's, But that person is clearly, And 99. 999% of people would agree with me on this, A dick.

You are resisting what your eyes tell you, What medical doctors around the world are agreeing with, What the person wishes to be called, Et cetera, Because of your vague feeling that chromosomes are more important than what the person feels.

Seems like a strange position to me, Friend.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 1
Redstone

Con

Redstone forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Redstone

Con

Redstone forfeited this round.
Thoht

Pro

Always a shame.
Debate Round No. 3
Redstone

Con

Redstone forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Redstone

Con

Redstone forfeited this round.
Thoht

Pro

Forever Fornever
Debate Round No. 5
31 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Yeah I wasn't the person who you were thinking of. This is my first account on this website or maybe I made one a long time ago since I did find out site earlier than 2 months ago but was not as consistent as I am now.
Posted by Youforgotme 3 years ago
Youforgotme
Wrong answer.

I'm done here.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
It says 2 months on my profile so I am going with that.
Posted by Youforgotme 3 years ago
Youforgotme
Ok, I will guess once you tell me how long you been on this site for with your 1st users name?
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Please guess. I would appreciate it.
Posted by Youforgotme 3 years ago
Youforgotme
@ omar2345

So are you going to tell me?
Posted by Youforgotme 3 years ago
Youforgotme
I don't do guesses.

Sorry about the translator I got it from another users.

But I would appreciate if you tell me who you really were.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
I would like guesses.

Where does it say I am translator?
Posted by Youforgotme 3 years ago
Youforgotme
Yes I am

I'm asking to know who I am talking to.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"You just did. LoL"
I was meant to say after this reply but now I am replying this so that doesn't matter.

"So what do you translator? "
What? Where does it say that?

"And why you made two accounts? "
Other one imposter.

"And have you ever been know as another screenname users on here other then the one you have here and the other one you just created? "
Why do you ask?
Intrigued on who you think I might be.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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