The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
11 Points

Public education in America is the death of freedom

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/8/2014 Category: Education
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,404 times Debate No: 58722
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (2)




Al Gore, the almighty capitalist and ultimate fossil fuel abuser has brainwashed you into believing inconvenient truths.


I accept and will be arguing that public education is not the death of freedom.
This is an interesting assertion, that I have never heard proposed. I am interested in seeing how pro substantiates this assertion.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you for the opportunity to debate.

The fact is that with the federal government mandating policies such as Common Core while at the same time placing barriers on charter schools, the children of citizens in this country are being indoctrinated with values that come from the government, and not values that come from good parents. How can the parent of an illegal immigrant child be considered good and deserving of the high cost of the education their child will receive? Notice I said children of citizens, the point of that being that we the taxpayers, those that pay for the public schools, are forced to pay for the education of children that come here illegally to reap the rewards of their rotten parents decision to pass the burden to the American taxpayer. What seems to be the common mentality behind these decisions is liberal guilt, although factually, there are more wealthy liberals that have made their money through their ability to utilize the legal system to gain advantage for themselves, and those they would make the real taxpaying Americans support. There can be no argument that the vast majority of the public school administration is of the left wing, to varying degrees, highly liberal mindset, and notice please that they all receive their paycheck from money confiscated from the taxpayers. The far left loves to take their taxpayer paycheck and then turn around a look at the taxpayers and say "see how lucky you are, these poor folks that never paid a nickel of taxes deserve that too, so pay up!" This has made the American taxpayer a slave to the public school system, and that is certainly not freedom.


The public education system needs reform, but it's hardly the end of freedom, and there's no way to get rid of it. You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Also your position is foggy.

Explain how children are being indocrinated.

Common Care- " The Common Core State Standards Initiative is an educational initiative in the United States that details what K-12 students should know in English language arts and mathematics at the end of each grade."
I don't see how there's a problem with this.

Charter school- Created by state law, charter schools are an example of a public/private partnership designed to enhance educational opportunities for public school students.

Charter schools use tax dollars.

So can you clarify your position on charter schools and common care?

Your biggest concern seems to be with immigrants.

Pro states:"How can the parent of an illegal immigrant child be considered good and deserving of the high cost of the education their child will receive?"

Now first you use the word "good". I am going to assume you're speaking in terms of morality, so I shall explain why its moral to provide immigrants with education.

P1: We should act in ways that promote overall well-being.
P2: Providing immigrants with education promotes overall well-being.
C: We should provide immigrants with education.

On P2:
1. Providing immigrants with education will have positive outcomes in the workforce. Giving immigrant children an education will provide them the skills needed to help the country compete in the global economy.

Education Is A Basic Human Right:
The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights, Article 26: "
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit."

My opponent states that immigrant children are not deserving, however the universal declaration of human rights, per the United Nations, says that all humans have a right to education.

This declaration is objective and not up for interpretation:

Article 30.
  • Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

Illegal Immigrants Pay Taxes: The states receiving the most tax revenue from households headed by unauthorized immigrants were California ($2.7 billion), Texas ($1.6 billion), Florida ($806.8 million), New York ($662.4 million), and Illinois ($499.2 million) {See Figure 1 and Table 1}.

Discrimination Against Immigrants Is Unjust And Un-American:

Pretty much everyone in the country is a descendant of an immigrant.

The founding fathers were immigrants.
Throughout American history we have used immigrant labor.
Bracero Program: The Bracero Program was created by executive order in 1942 because many growers argued that World War II would bring labor shortages to low-paying agricultural jobs. On August 4, 1942 the United States concluded a temporary intergovernmental agreement for the use of Mexican agricultural labor on United States farms (officially referred to as the Mexican Farm Labor Program), and the influx of legal temporary Mexican workers began.

The founding fathers supported immigration:
Hamilton and Jefferson: "Immigrants exhibit a large proportion of ingenious and valuable workmen"
Thomas Paine viewed America as: "the asylum for the persecuted lovers of civil and religious liberty."

It is unjust to deprive education. Immigrant children are born into their situation and it would be profoundly immoral to keep them in this poor socioeconomic state by depriving them of education.

Positive Economic Benefits:
Findings show that gross domestic product (GDP) will grow, the legalized will pay more taxes, and immigrants will add tax revenue and economic activity. GDP gains range from 0.3 percent to 0.8 percent per year ($83 to $150 billion),depending on the labor force growth stimulated by immigration reform and the increase in earnings of the undocumented immigrants who would be legalized.

Lack Of Public Education Has Traditionally Leads To Not Freedom:
Slavery: African American slaves were intentionally kept ignorant in order to subjugate them. If they understood their situation, they would have been able to quickly revolt.

19th Century Russia: Under authoratative Tsarists rule, serfs were intentially deprived of literacy and knowledge of political events in order to encourage apathy.

Taxes:We have to pay taxes in order to establish institutions, I hope this is not news to you.I don't know why it bothers you that immigrant children are benefiting from this. It seems to me youre just incredibly natavist.
Nativism: " Nativism is the political position of demanding a favored status for certain established inhabitants of a nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants.[1] Nativism typically means opposition to immigration and support of efforts to lower the political or legal status of specific ethnic or cultural groups because the groups are considered hostile or alien to the natural culture, and assumptions that they cannot be assimilated."
This is exactly what you're endorsing. You are wanting to deprive children of education in order to keep them in this poor socioeconomic state.

It's Hard To Become Legal: I know this will come up. I Don't have enough characters to explain, in-depth how complicated the process is, so I shall just put a picture:
Immigration flow chart
Conclusion: My opponent just used some vague conspiracy theory like, nataivst, xenophobe arguments. I am interesting in hearing a vigiorous intellectual argument. My opponents contentions seem to be immigration and taxes.
My points:
1. It is just and beneficial to provide immigrant children with education, per the doctrine of human rights and economic study.
2. Immigrants pay taxes.
3. Natavism is detrimental (which is common sense, so I didn't spend time on it, but I will if need be).
4. Education leads to freedom. deprivation of education leads to subjugation.

Debate Round No. 2


Thanks for spending all that time putting together your argument, however the sense I get is that you are for ILLEGAL immigration, no matter what it costs the taxpayers. The taxpayers no longer have freedom here and it is due to attitudes like yours. I am guessing you most likely haven't had to get a real job and pay taxes yet so in reality your argument is based on a naive, politically correct, free lunch sort of morality. You seem to consider America to be a cash cow for everyone on the planet to feed from, even though we are 17 TRILLION dollars in debt, and debt is slavery. We are going in debt, with no guarantee of a return, to feed, clothe, educate, and provide health care for people whom a large majority of have paid not one cent to be here, and have blatantly broken our laws for a taste of FREE freedom. Freedom may start with the word free, but it is not about free stuff for anyone that jumps the border, or maybe in your far left, globalist, who gives a damn about the American taxpayers mind, freedom means, "jump the border and get your free stuff!" I am a taxpayer, are you? Will you be a taxpayer, or do you want a job paid for by the taxpayers?

On your characterization of my comments as nativism, it is untrue. I very much expect that people coming to this country LEGALLY, have the same rights as everyone else. My family did when they came through Ellis Island LEGALLY in the early 1900's, but once here they had to earn their way, they did not expect that laws would be ignored for their favor just because they moved from a poorer country. Your argument "it's hard to become legal" , says to me that because there is difficulty getting what you covet then it is OK with you to ignore the law.

Xenophobe? I'd rather be considered that then a sneaky border jumping tax dollar thief.

To conclude my argument I will say this.

The public education system has some very smart and hard working individuals, they are the minority. Most pubic school teachers I had were in the profession for the benefits, good pay, lots of vacation, job security, and massive benefits. They were not there to increase America's standing in the world, they embodied the words "liberal guilt". This sense of liberal guilt pervades the school systems in America and many children are fed that BS on a daily basis. America is not the scourge of the world, and certainly the taxpayers are not cash cows to be milked for the gain of selfish border jumpers. Just try that approach in Mexico and see what kind of education you receive for free.


Ad Hominem: Pro makes a personal attack on me, assuming I have not had to pay taxes. Untrue, I have had a job and payed taxes and I don't care if illegal immigrants benefit from me paying taxes.

Free Lunch: Im not sure my opponent understands free lunch.This is a saying in economics. "To get one thing that we like, we usually have to give up another thing that we like. Making decisions requires trading off one goal against another."
Free lunch is a system in which I don't have to give another thing. Were already paying taxes, so why are you against the benefits of others? I have no idea what free lunch morality means. My version of morality is that acts that promote the most well-being are moral. Allowing immigrant children to have an education promotes the most well being, so it's moral.

Immigrants And Taxes:
Once again illegal immigrants pay taxes.

1.Sales tax
2.Income Tax
3.Property Tax.
Illegal immigrants are tax payers and are entitled to the benefits of tax payers.
Did you even care to look at my chart?
So it's not hey jump the border and get free stuff. It's actually hey come over, contribute to society and you are entitled to your benefits.


P1: The universal declaration of human rights, declares all humans have a right to education.

P2: Children of illegal immigrants are human
C: The children of illegal immigrants have a right to education

Liberal Guilt: As for as I'm aware liberal guilt is a derogatory term used to describe the left who want to make the world a better place for those less fortunate. What's wrong with wanting all people to enjoy a good standard of living? I'm not understanding how this is an insult. I'm an atheist, but wouldn't jesus want these poor immigrant children to have an education :)?

Pro says: "Just try that approach in Mexico and see what kind of education you receive for free."
I don't want to do that, but I might try that with:
States that actually have free, high quality education.

Just To Be A Cool Kid, I'll Use The Utilitarian Calculus To Substantiate My Claim Of Morality:

R = P * [(I * D ) + (F * E) - (X * E)]
In case you are unfamiliar with the hedonistic calculus, I shall explain.

R is results
I is intensity (scale of 1 to 10)
D is duration (scale of 1 to 10 for simplicity)
F is fecundity(1 to 10)
E is Extent ( 1 to 10 for simplicity)
X is Impurity
(I change the scale to avoid cantor and set theory)
I=10. I'm sure immigrant and immigrant children are extremely happy for education.
D= 10. The benefits of receiving an education, would last for all future generations.
F= 8. The well being of future generations will be gained but the far right will be pissed.
E= 10. All immigrants and immigrant children and tax payers are involved.
X= 2, because of the far right :(

R= (10^2) + (8x10) - (2x10)
R= (100 + 80) - 20
R= 160

Conclusion: Providing immigrant children with education is moral. The only way to change that is to drastically change the values, which there is not rationale for.

Final thoughts:
1.Pro has not responded to the fact that illegal immigrants are tax payers.
2. Pro has not refuted that providing illegal immigrant children with education is moral.
3. Pro has not responded to the fact that denial of education never leads to freedom.
4. Pro has not responded to the universal doctrine of human rights.


Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Max.Wallace 7 years ago
You cannot deny education is a basic for of indoctrination by the state that forces others to pay for their cult. K5
Posted by Max.Wallace 7 years ago
el mucho guido senor! very good sir, would be the translation! but still wrong and advocating theft of others contribution.
Posted by Max.Wallace 7 years ago
I used to feel immortal when I was young and dumb. Mortality is all our fate as it should be, or life is nothing.
Posted by Max.Wallace 7 years ago
Very well writ and rounded comments KhalifV, I will respond to every point tomorrow in kind. Thank you.
Posted by Max.Wallace 7 years ago
Immortal, that is quite an arrogant elitist name you have, which I would not have pointed out if you had not stooped to the lowbrow attitude of calling me a bigot. Show some guts and debate the issue, unless you are unable to create a rebuttal due to your immortality complex.
Posted by The_Immortal_Emris 7 years ago
That's a pretty rambling and xenophiobic argument. It's hardly even worth rebutting. It will be difficult to rebut without directly challenging the world perspective of an obviously bigoted individual, which will likely devolve the debate into a slugfest.

Good luck Con, I don't know why you even bothered with this one.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by NathanDuclos 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Wow, Khalifv, I like your debating style.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro made derogatory & baseless comments and insulted Con. Pro never actually proved the resolution, instead attacking illegal immigrants and welfare recipients. (If you wish to assert indoctrination, please provide sources. Also, who's to say they aren't being indoctrinated to love freedom?) Con demolished every Pro point on illegal immigration, with sources, and linked education with freedom.

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