The Instigator
Sophisto
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
aaronjdf
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Should Christians change?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/2/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 447 times Debate No: 113406
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

Sophisto

Pro

Rules: citing multiple sources will invoke preponderance of evidence. Quality over quantity, please. Civility goes a long way. Pure opinion runs the risk of being biased. Keep personal experience and anecdotes relevant and effective.
New rules may be added as adjustments prove to be required. Updates may be in comments for timing efficiency.

Argument: Decline in religion is on the incline. Christians go to church oblivious to their impending demise. Their tactics are fruitless. The goal is what? Global conversion? Logic is not on their side.
Christian stereotypes are not that unfair.Persecution complexes are claimed as refusals to be held accountable are stubbornly maintained.
Citing verses back at them does nothing when it should be effective according to...the BIBLE! Instruction and correction are unfulfilled. Divas who refuse to be better people and condescendingly judge everyone else. My point being: would your messiah find you RaptureWorthy?

I would cite biblical verse but it is futile. The one thing they say is authoritative and they ignore inconvenient truths. I await my opponent"s suggested sources for using against them. Something they would heed is welcome.
aaronjdf

Con

It is difficult to counter your argument regarding decline in religion, I'm assuming you mean every religion and a general moral decline. To counter that argument I would suggest that media and the easy access to information makes religions appear to decline while in fact the immorality we see has been existing for thousands of years its just now being exposed. If anything the morality of religion is on the incline because of the public eye. People searching for religion are more inclined to go where good morals are and religions with lower morals will attract smaller crowd till they eventually die out. Please explain the impending demise Christians are heading towards, I do not understand. Global conversion is not a goal, the goal is to spread the message to everyone. As a christian I feel obligated to spread the message so you have an chance even if you will likely reject it. Numbers is not what religion is about, it is all about each individual and their relationship with God. I don't understand your next point,"Christian stereotypes are not that unfair.". Removing the double negative, "Christian stereotypes are fair". Which stereotypes... please explain. Everyone is persecuted, christian and non christian alike, if some have a complex that is their own mental weakness. We refuse to be held accountable for what? I don't know who you tried citing verses back to but they probably didn't have a good understanding of the Bible. As stated before Christianity isn't a numbers game, each individual has a relationship with God and that relationship is our individual responsibility and even if the majority of religious people fall short of some moral test that would have no impact on any one individuals rapture worthiness. It would however set a bad example and influence others preventing some from seeking God.
Debate Round No. 1
Sophisto

Pro

Thank you, opponent for accepting.

As for rebuttals, my opponent countered that religion is inclining due to immorality being exposed. However the popularity is waning and will cripple faith from having the current authority to guide humanity. Christians predict underground churches. That is their self-imposed fate. If global conversion is not a goal, then what does the Great Commission say? Are you excluding certain prospects?

Certain stereotypes include: condescending prayer requests, atheist debate talking points, false miracle spectacles. Nobody can have a good understanding of the bible. Any ego arrogant enough to claim otherwise is planning nefarious deeds. It is a numbers game as evident in the religious food chain where the church ranks supreme. How do you know what dictates one"s rapture worthiness? Salvation is only the start; maintenance is required. Something Christians fail to grasp. Jesus will deny knowing those who deny him. Also, his parables imply a rejection based on poor performance.

Thank you for debating.
aaronjdf

Con

Your statements are very direct almost as if at a person and not religion in general. When you argued that,"Decline in religion is on the incline." I had thought you were suggesting a moral decline in religion because your remaining argument was referencing negative issues within religion and popularity was never mentioned. However since you are arguing: popularity and not moral decline, I must agree that popularity is on the decline, but you also discussed the quality of religious people a lot and not in a general way but on a very personal level. This will make the debate difficult for me because popularity and true Christians do not go hand in hand. Many churches sacrifice traditional values in favor of crowds resulting in many of the negative issues you mention. Debating the moral quality of religion is very different from discussing the personal experiences you have had with religious people and analysing them but I'll do my best.
I would have to agree with you that religion is becoming less and less popular for many reasons. As for,"religions losing their power to guide humanity." I don't believe that religion has ever been necessary for an individual to have good morals and some of the most horrible crimes have been committed in the name of religion. I will not be referencing any of the horrible acts committed in the name of religion in the past and comparing them to religions today because I believe in your previous statements you agreed with me that there is no moral decline in religions, choosing to focus on popularity of religion which we actually agree on. Making two points we can both agree on turning this debate into more of a discussion.
The Great Commission is the instruction of Jesus to his disciples, Mark 16:15 "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Verse sixteen goes on to say,"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. To save the entire world at one time has never been the plan of God, just a desire to give everyone in the world the opportunity to be saved. God is not willing that any should perish and he gives us the choice to refuse or accept.
The condescending prayer requests which you have heard would either be made by a naive christian who genuinely wanted to help but lacked the social awareness to be discreet or by a hypocrite who outwardly feigns being a christian while they put others down to lift themselves up, which is not Christ like, making them antichrist.
As for False miracle spectacles, I personally believe that some power comes from the devil, some from God and some is a trick of man. 1 John 4:1,2 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Nobody can have a good understanding of the Bible? I did not claim to fully understand the Bible. It is a difficult book to understand but for you to make such a statement implies that you believe yourself to be the most intelligent and wise human being to have ever existed or will ever exist, and that you have devoted a majority of your time to understanding the Bible and have fallen so short that you are positive no other human intellect could have or ever will have an understanding of this book. Such a statement needs no rebuttal and this debate is not about my understanding of the Bible but any biblical questions you ask me I am prepared to answer.
Of course all religions from an outside perspective appear as a numbers game because they are trying to spread their message and bring in people but the foundation of all religion is not about numbers but sincerity and morals. The message they usually preach is about salvation, forgiveness and being a good person, the focus is not on numbers but on helping others.
When talking about "rapture worthiness" you are targeting a very specific religious group, I would think it was determined by each individuals walk with God and the condition of their life in that moment. Keep in mind that most religious groups who believe in the rapture also believe you can't lose salvation, which would mean rapture worthy doesn't apply because they are always rapture worthy. The Bible teaches that you will know them by their fruit/works. If the Christians you have dealt with exhibit more signs of the pharisees, than they do of Jesus Christ, then they most likely never repented of their sins but just prayed a prayer thinking they could say some magic words to get salvation and they were wrong. God looks on the heart and a voice is not needed for forgiveness, just repentance of sin which includes the sin of pride. I can not debate that many "Christians" will be denied by Jesus. Matthew 7:21-23. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. We also agree on that and I have digressed from a look at religious morals in general to a very close look an individuals relationship with God and salvation. The majority of religions do not lead to salvation or God but I think this focused look at Christians more accurately address your statements.
Debate Round No. 2
Sophisto

Pro

I see no conflict with the contender"s latest post.

However, the debate must go on. Christians should change for their sake if at all. Tactics, their entire paradigm needs remodeling in a way that miraculously circumvents their attachments to ineffective methods of evangelism. Moot point if they don"t also revamp their apologetics. If the argument didn"t work...find a new one.

Public relations needs transparency. Hiding worsens the scandal, O wise men. Better yet, resign before you further dig the church"s grave.
Finally, I bid the church good luck.
I would like to thank the contender for civil discourse. May this debate have been somewhat interesting.
aaronjdf

Con

I am happy to have had this debate end on such a note, it is rare for a debate to end with some agreement and no hard feelings. I do think the flaws you wish changed in the church are a result of individuals failing to follow their church's teachings and not the views of the religion as a whole but I agree with your perspective on a need for change to gain popularity. The Church has followed the original teaching with a blind faith that is commendable and while society technology and science has advanced they have remained in the past. I do not believe their doctrines are wrong but the teachings we see in the Bible are based on society at the time. I hardly think teaching the proper way to treat slaves is relevant in society today. We see society determining the laws in the Bible and as society changes so too should the translations and the laws. I do not refer to the commandments but the minor laws dictating behavior. In the Bible its taught that we should only have one wife however in the old testament it was acceptable to have multiple wives, these laws were determined by society at the time and were not unchangeable. When we progress to the point of being able to safely enjoy shellfish via cooking and technology for storage, it is no longer wrong to enjoy some shrimp. As the Church stands firm in tradition it will lose popularity but I will not judge them. If someone truly seeks God they live in an age that makes it very easy to access information and should not be turned away from a church because of old fashioned views. Those who do not seek have made their choice and their eternal destination is their own responsibility. I do not consider myself a member of any church so my interest in their success/popularity is minimal. I hope to read some of your future debates and learn more of your beliefs and opinions.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by BaphometSgl 3 years ago
BaphometSgl
Christians should be stop being christians and start care about peoples instead of imaginary friends
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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