The Instigator
Scmiedforge
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
FollowerofChrist1955
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Should the death penalty be legal?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Scmiedforge
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/10/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 621 times Debate No: 98851
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Scmiedforge

Con

Rules: I'll be taking the position of the Con, you will take the position of the Pro. We are both Christians so quoting of the Bible is a legitimate defense of our beliefs, but also please include non-religious reasons for your beliefs as well.

Round 1 is for acceptance, Round 2 is for arguments, Round 3 is for rebuttals.

Thank you for considering participating in this debate.
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

I accept, thank you
Debate Round No. 1
Scmiedforge

Con

Thank you for accepting the debate.

The bible clearly speaks against murder (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:16-19), in the OT there were times believers were called to bring justice into their own hands, but the NT clearly states that is not our job in James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?". and even if it were still our job to judge who to save and destroy it tells us we are not to use "eye for an eye" judgement anymore in Matthew 5:38-39 ""You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;" and the bible teaches who is allowed to in John 8:7 "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." ".

The reason what the Bible teaches is important is because The United States of America was founded on Christian principle, as proven in the Constitution of the United States of America "If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law," as it acknowledges the Christian Sabbath, The Paris Peace Treaty "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity. ", and finally The Declaration of Independence "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Which also shows that all humans have the "unalienable right" to life, there's not much more I can say on the matter.

Also we need to look into the logical aspects of giving someone life in prison as opposed to the death penalty. it's a much more severe punishment, and also has the ability to do more good. If a person has all their life to think about what they've done, they can do good in turning those that got a lesser sentence to a better lifestyle overall and possibly save multiple lives in the process.

(I would like to note when I quoted the Bible I used the "Revised Standard Version" in case you would like to cross reference)
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Well put, worthy argument. Since we begin in a religious context first, my rebuttal shall also take this posture.

Point#1 Christians mandate of personal conduct;
James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?"

Clearly the scriptures pertain TO only christians personal behavior, The death penalty is clearly OUTSIDE personal conduct, and is under the authority of governmental oversight, statutes and requirements. So what does God say about christian conduct within the structure of government authority?

Romans 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, 4 for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God’s servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer.

Matthew 5:38-39 ""You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;

Again this scripture clearly makes plain christian conduct only. It does not infer nor make reference to a christian who is in a government position, ie juror. In this capacity the rule of law of the authoritative body is in effect, and it is mandatory that this christian conform to the applicable laws, provided they do not conflict with Gods law. In the death penalty cases, they do not go against the laws of God as will be demonstrated.

John 8:7 "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." "

As to John 8:7 this is an excellent example of a common failing among the body of Christ today. Human interpretation.

Point#2 Personal interpretation of the Bible is forbidden:

No offense is meant or is being eluded to towards my brother, I am taking the opportunity to demonstrate a spiritual matter between brethren. Attend me my brother; notice that the events that transpired in this scripture held only one purpose ..... to sabotage Jesus, it served no other purpose as Jesus was NOT part of the ruling body at that time. Had she been taken too the ruling authorities of the time, dead IS what she would have been, without question or doubt, it was THE LAW.

No my brother, the narrative signifies only one thing, the corruption of the THEN religious body. Nothing more when looked at in its own form, WITHOUT presupposition or attempts to INTERPRET more than what was obvious. So you see God does work in mysterious ways, to save others whom are destined for other matters as was Mary. Throughout the pulpits and seminaries of America this command has been violated, thus explaining the countless forms of Christianity present in the world today.

2 Peter 1:20-21
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet"s own interpretation of things. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

short answer .... you shall not attempt to or be swayed by human interpretation. Scripture interprets scripture.

know one knows what God meant BUT GOD. God tells us He will teach US and that we have no need of a teacher other than Him!

Matthew 11:29
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart, and [then] you will find rest for your souls.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

1 Corinthians 2:12
We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Point#3 The dDeath Penalty is sanctioned by God.
Bold statement to be sure, yet easily proven by scripture alone:

Genesis 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Exodus 21:12 He that strikes a man, so that he dies, shall be surely put to death.

Exodus 21:14 "If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may die.

And on it goes,Leviticus 24:17 'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 35:17 ,Numbers 35:16,Numbers 35:19,Numbers 35:20-21,Numbers 35:30,Numbers 35:31,Numbers 35:33,Revelation 13:10

and I could fill this page to its limit with scriptures which demand the death of those who take life!

Now as to the secular world and its requirements. To take the life of another human soul, is probably among the most difficult task given to a juror. So important is this decision that, it is crucial that each person selected must be questioned, as to their resolve to represent the United States without passion or prejudice. But what does that even mean?

"This is the time for consideration and minute examination: and I think the great subject, when viewed seriously, without passion or prejudice, will bear and brighten under the severest examination of the rational inquirer." ~ Pelatiah Webster, Remarks on the Address of Sixteen Members of the Assembly of Pennsylvania 12 Oct. 1787
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu...

"But in the sciences of morals and politics, men are found far less tractable. To a certain degree, it is right and useful that this should be the case. Caution and investigation are a necessary armor against error and imposition. But this untractableness may be carried too far, and may degenerate into obstinacy, perverseness, or disingenuity. Though it cannot be pretended that the principles of moral and political knowledge have, in general, the same degree of certainty with those of the mathematics, yet they have much better claims in this respect than, to judge from the conduct of men in particular situations, we should be disposed to allow them. The obscurity is much oftener in the passions and prejudices of the reasoner than in the subject. Men, upon too many occasions, do not give their own understandings fair play; but, yielding to some untoward bias, they entangle themselves in words and confound themselves in subtleties."~ Alexander Hamilton, January 1, 1788 http://www.foundingfathers.info...

"Information must be such that a reasonable man, acting without passion or prejudice, would fairly have suspected the person of committing the offence."~ Powers of arrest and search, [...] without a warrant Underlying principle : reasonable suspicion - common law definition [Allen v Wright (1838)]

The juror's oath is a solemn pledge to "well and truly try the issues." That means that the juror will consider carefully all of the evidence, will find the facts without passion or prejudice, will apply the law without fear or favor, will put out of mind and heart every extraneous matter, and will "a true verdict give according to the evidence." http://courts.delaware.gov...

Alas my brothers, the death penalty DOES NOT violate Gods law, it embraces it, at least at the present time. When you accept the position of juror, then refuse to abide by the laws of government and God because of emotions, weakness, distaste, disgust or any such emotion or passion you make yourself a liar.

Indeed if OATH is taken to uphold the law without PASSION or PREJUDICE, only to after guilt is pronounced, shy away from the prescribed punishment under law, have you not made yourself a liar? What does God say for those who are in dereliction of duty or whose faithless conduct circumvents said judgement for want of moral courage. There is neither recourse nor substitution for ones responsibility to the family of the victim, and we do this unconscionable thing, have we not made victims of the family as well? JUSTICE is blind, but only till we pervert it by the insertion of emotion, piety, or any other passion which at onset was clearly and plainly Expressed and forbidden!

"It is well to be rational when we can, and never, without compulsion, to attribute motives of passion, or prejudice, or ignorance as a factor in politics."~ Lord Acton, Lectures on Modern History (1906)


In closing it must be understood that a civilization who fails to impose punishments in accordance with the severity of offense creates a civilization where criminality runs rampant, criminals show contempt for law enforcement knowing incarceration is the only punishment for which they will recieve luxuries in addition to incarceration, as is the present state of prison, with access to Television, computers, the internet, conjugal visitations,college degrees at taxpayer expense etc... well you already know the truth of these statements ... don't you?

I thank you for your patience and kind attention.
Debate Round No. 2
Scmiedforge

Con

Before I begin my rebuttal to your argument I would like to thank you for a fun and challenging debate.

"Point#1 Christians mandate of personal conduct;
James 4:12 "There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?"

Clearly the scriptures pertain TO only Christians personal behavior, The death penalty is clearly OUTSIDE personal conduct, and is under the authority of governmental oversight, statutes and requirements. So what does God say about christian conduct within the structure of government authority?

Romans 13:1-7
13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment 3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation, 4 for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God's servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer.

Matthew 5:38-39 ""You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;

Again this scripture clearly makes plain christian conduct only. It does not infer nor make reference to a christian who is in a government position, ie juror. In this capacity the rule of law of the authoritative body is in effect, and it is mandatory that this christian conform to the applicable laws, provided they do not conflict with Gods law. In the death penalty cases, they do not go against the laws of God as will be demonstrated."

I agree that James 4:12 and Matthew 5:38-39 is talking about personal Christian conduct, however I don't think you understand Romans 13:1-7 very well. Since we know The Bible is the infallible word of God it cannot contradict itself, the way you're interpreting the verse it does...considering the USA is a democracy and God gave humans freewill it's impossible that the Government is selected by God's appointment. So, if The Bible doesn't lie, what could it possibly mean? well firstly those authorities had to already have existed, (Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. for there is no authority except by God's appointment, AND THE AUTHORITIES THE EXIST HAVE BEEN INSTITUTED BY GOD" - Romans 13:1. By the way I couldn't figure out how to make that bold, it was all caps for emphasis, I wasn't yelling) so that tells me that it's not modern day government.

It was the disciples,
(John 20:19-23 "19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you" 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.")
perhaps more specifically Peter.
(Matthew 16:18-19 " 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ")
Which would leave the only option that I can think of, The Pope (and to a lesser extent priests)...if The Catholic Church is correct, they have all the requirements, they can forgive sins, give retribution for sins (crimes in the eye of God) and The Pope is also government officially (he's the king of Vatican City). So, if it is the case that my theory is correct we need to know what the highest level of power of government says about the death penalty...and he disagrees with it completely. ( http://www.catholicnewsagency.com... )

"John 8:7 "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." "

As to John 8:7 this is an excellent example of a common failing among the body of Christ today. Human interpretation."
"2 Peter 1:20-21
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet"s own interpretation of things. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

short answer .... you shall not attempt to or be swayed by human interpretation. Scripture interprets scripture."
(along with the others verses of pros point#2, but I'm starting to run low on characters so I won't quote them all)

Now of course it's up to the voters in the end, but I'm personally seeing a lot of controversial interpretation of these verses to prove you can't interpret the bible.

"Point#3 The Death Penalty is sanctioned by God.
Bold statement to be sure, yet easily proven by scripture alone:"

It certainly is a bold statement, however it's an opinion...not a fact like you think

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers are all old testament, which means old law...They don't hold up in the Debate at hand, this has to do with what God allows now, not what he used to allow/what has been fulfilled.
Matthew 26:52, when you read more of this chapter ( https://www.biblegateway.com... ) you see he said this to one of his disciples when they attempted to defend him, He very well could have meant that in the sense that they would get executed if he continued, or very well could have said that because Jesus had not yet became the ultimate sacrifice and Old Law still technically applied.
Revelation 13:10 says "If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.", I don't personally see this as relevant to the debate at hand, this isn't a call for the saints to do this, but a call to "endurance and faith".

All you said past this point was for all intents and purposes the "rules" of the death penalty, and that a Juror must make up their mind with no passion or prejudice...which I think is to a certain extent impossible, someone will always think of the bigger picture than the crime at hand no matter what they pledged, otherwise a whole lot more serial killers would get capital punishment as opposed to life in prison.
As I already said, life in a high security prison can be a far worse punishment ( https://en.wikipedia.org... ) with better benefits overall than capital punishment.

Thanks again, like I said this was a fun and challenging debate, I'll look forward to reading your response in this round!
FollowerofChrist1955

Pro

Use Rich text to highlight subjects. When you click post my argument, if you look just above the box you are to write your text in, you will see the words Rich Text . If you click it, it opens an additional header that allows for italicizing, bold, underline etc… Hope this helps.

Those nonbelievers reading please forgive me my detour from subject for a moment!

Noble arguement my brother; When Peter stated Above all you must understand .... there was no ambiguity, its message was clear ..... Do Not Interpret Gods word .... ever! God says what He means and Means what He says. Again what one believes HAS no effect on their salvation, because that is secure in Christ, but I will stress again that it most certainly WILL effect their inheritance and rewards before the bema seat of God, I cannot be more clear! But back to the subject.

The debate was should the death penalty be legal?

I believe it has been shown to all present that not only is it legal, but it was first sanctioned by God. And thus the Death Penalty should be and presently IS LEGAL in accordance WITH Gods will as it pertains to civil government. Again there is no ambiguity!

side note to believers* God made it a point to inform ALL believers that He is in control... of civil government, of satan, of demons, of christians and of unbelievers, nothing happens without His foreknowledge. This is done so that Christans do not waste their time trying to change the world, but trying to change people! While everyone is out crusading on The death Penalty, sinners are dying unsaved by the millions, because the believers are allowing themselves to be distracted on things they cannot control.

If satan wants to distract a nun, he doesn't do it by trying to lure her into sin? He instead bogs her down in prayer so thay she cannot spread the word of God to a dying world! The devil isn't stupid, he doesn't care that your saved, he only cares that you don't try and save anyone else? He is in charge of the world for the for the time being. Just not for long!

back to subject.

In closing I have shown you all required scripture, whereby God, the infallible word of God not ONLY required it, but promoted it even BEFORE civil government was introduced into existence. This is not subject to believers acceptance.

The point you overlook here, is that the CHURCH no longer HAS a ruling body that requires such punishment as Jesus has purged all believers of ALL sins past present and future. So in essence and in truth the children of God have been forgiven in all areas of sin in accordance with Gods direction and can therefore NOT BE adjudged guilty nor punished by the followers of Christ. But that is not the point is it?

Attend me my brother; Does the forgiveness of God, somehow exempt us from civil consequences? Of course not. Isn’t that what you’re unknowingly attempting to argue? That people should somehow be adjudged in accordance with scripture? Preposterous,never happen, why? Separation of church and State remember!

So your argument while certainly well-meaning remains a practice in futility. Justice in the civil government has little to do with morality and everything to do with punishment. By your argument, no person should be put in prison! Everyone should be forgiven their debt every jubilee. No my brother CIVIL laws are not under the authority of the Church. The world belongs to Satan, the children of God belong to God, and yet there ARE many a believer in prison and even ON death row.

God remains in contol, salvation remains a free gift, and the world is on a countdown to judgement. Last plug for you unsaved people. God CAN be found, Go to my debate on Hell, Who will go there, and Why?

May God Bless and keep you.
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
ScmiedforgeFollowerofChrist1955Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30