The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Sonofcharl
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Socialism has made a comeback

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/16/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 589 times Debate No: 118570
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

billsands

Pro

Socialism has morphed into a slightly different beat, Adapted to reality and doing well in places like Scadanavia and China
Sonofcharl

Con

If Socialism has morphed then it is no longer Socialism.

Even Marx, Observing the natural hierarchy of human society, Accepted that Socialism would only be a temporary state that preceded Communism.

All societies are to a lesser or greater extent authoritarian and China and the Scandinavian countries are certainly not exceptions to this rule.

Authoritarian systems that observe and pander to natural hierarchy, By definition cannot be regarded as Socialist systems.

In reality Socialism is an unachievable, Theoretical utopia.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

Socialsim is a word often misused but it expresses a desire for society to be more equal and more democratic, Many attempts in the past have failedm nay attempts to fly failed many attempts to lauch a rocket into orbit failed till they succeeded. . I failed misreably in my attempts to swim when i was 7 at 8 my dad insisted i could do it and better do it if i wanted a new bicycle for my birthday, Many attmpts to ride a two wheeler without training wheels failed misreably also eventually i did learn to swin and ride a bicycle and read and talk to girls without getting sick to my stomach they all seemd rather impossible at the time, But now are second nature i do feel this is wat will hapen with Socialism. . Maybe the model of a state run society may have failed but the idea of a more equal and democratic society lives on and has had many successes germany in it constituion rquires union workers to be represented on it board of directors. . Perhaps this is the social ism that will succeed
Sonofcharl

Con

"Socialism is a word often misused but it expresses a desire for society to be more equal and more democratic".

Paying lip service to conceptual whims does not necessarily achieve the desired end result.

Pro has inadvertently implied the Orwellian notion that all things are equal but some things are more equal than others.
A notion that actually identifies the reality of hierarchy and as I have already suggested, Hierarchy is the intrinsic social design flaw.

And who really desires a "more equal" society the most?

And who actually gets voted onto the board of directors? Is it going to be Herr Numbnuts or will it probably be Frau Cleverpants?

Evolved human nature and instinctive behaviour cannot be suppressed and neither can it be ignored.

There will always be those that will lead and those that will be led.

And Pro's personal problems were Pro's personal problems and were in no way relative to socialist, Theoretical concepts.
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

Everyone has trouble learning to do something, No one pops out of the womb talking and walking, We are all on an evolutionary journey. . No society I think will see absolute equality, Nor should it, True we don't want a bus driver running the country. . We want him driving a bus. . I think that is where he or she ( or how ever the bus driver self identifies) would be most happy, That doesnt mean everyone can't have a say and participate, That doesnt mean everyone can't have a more fair distribution of the nations wealth. . If you look at northern europe for example. . The market system is firmly in place. . And works quite well but at the same time there are high taxes a generous welfare state to re distribute goods like housing, Education and health care. One of three people works fo the state, In places like norway and also singapore though both are market friendly the state holds many assets in sobereign welath funds for the common good, So the mean of production are controled by a democratic state very democratic in the case of norway norway being the most eqaul nation in terms or distribution of wealth, It is on top of the lists for prosperity quality of life and standard of living. . And then ther is china where half the work force either work for the state or state owned companies, No nation on earth has taken more people out of poverty than china. . It is possible to be prosperous democratic equitable and successful people don't have to be absolutely equal, Just progressively less unequal is a good direction for society to move in, Call this a progeessive society call it market socialism or social democracy a word is a silly thing to be hung up on. . Socialism did not really fail. . It changed moderated became practical and in my opinion is now beating the more laissez faire models of capitalism, No system has ever been pure state run or pure private, Puer socialist or pure capitalist, That is a false dicotomy and a silly waste of time to argue over. . Maybe the ideal society will not be socialist. . Thats okay with me, But socialist values may soften the edges of the extremes of the Capitalist system.
Sonofcharl

Con

"Socialism has made a comeback".

Was there ever Socialism in the first place?
Socialism was the imaginary world of well heeled philosophical types, Who had the way with all to be able to sit around all day thinking up utopian impossibilities.

All societies are to a lesser or greater extent authoritarian, Without authority there would be anarchy. Authority unavoidably implies hierarchy and social division.
So no matter how liberal the application of authority might be, The philosophical dream will always be rendered unworkable.

Yes. The bus driver will drive the bus and the politician will run the country, Essentially they will both input a similar amount of time and effort into their society.
But will they both be allocated the same level of reward for their time and efforts?
And who decides that one persons time and efforts are more worthy? I doubt that it would be the bus driver who makes this decision.

I would suggest that China is and always has been a nation of extremes. Extremely authoritarian in National Government but extremely equalitarian at a proletariat level. I would further suggest that this is due to the vastness of China and it's population which results in a naturally occurring society, Rather than a philosophically inspired social structure.

Norway: A rich nation with a small population.
But wealth is relative to the cost of living and in this respect poverty is still a significant and increasing factor in Norwegian society and this can only be as a result of an unequal distribution of resources and wealth.

Assisting the less well of is not a defining principle of socialism. Socialism is based on a fair and equal allocation of wealth and resources in the first place.

Pro looks optimistically at the world and states the obvious. All people are equal but some people are more equal than others.

I am certainly not a pessimist, But perhaps I am a little more realistic. I do not look at the world and witness any truly socialist societies.

Leaving me to conclude that; Socialism cannot comeback because it was never here in the first place.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Block19 3 years ago
Block19
Capitalism, Socialism, And communism are all flawed systems which only work when there is a good relationship between the governing body and those being governed. Saying that one for is the best is an subjective view.
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