The Instigator
Abbelle
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Socialism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/9/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 888 times Debate No: 116420
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (0)

 

Abbelle

Con

I come here as friendly
How would Socialism work in a country? All the examples of socialist countries that we have are proved to go totally wrong, so I naturally don't put any faith in this regime and I'm 100% pro-Capitalism because I think it works. So, why do you think Socialism works after so many wrongs? After every country that used it became dictatorships?
Reminder that I come here as friendly, but if you attack, I will attack back, so you choose if you want to keep this peaceful. I just want to hear it from you
backwardseden

Pro

I do not claim to know that much about socialism. And no it hasn't failed in countries where it has been demonstrated because it hasn't been demonstrated in any country to its true nature. Its only been polluted by its rulers. I mean how can it be true if according to wikipedia "There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] though social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."? No single definition...

A few things that are for sure is...
That democracy doesn't work as people like Trump, the worst president of all time, squashes the poor and loves to see the rich eat from its gold plates thus worldwide peace will never be achieved

Wherever religion is splattered, its coffin is dug, especially christianity, in which you seem to be so fond of, as war after war, which claims and every stacking high amount of bodies, because what it is really after it its supreme ego god complex because it, like you believes that it is somehow better than everybody else thus worldwide peace will never be achieved. And no religion has ever proved that its god or any prophesies are true.

Of course a dictatorship doesn't work as many have ruled with an iron fist and sure the exact opposite is true that that the dictator happens to put his or her people ahead of him or her which has happened and is kind, caring and loving. Sure call kings and queens dictators.

Then there's communism which is always a false theory. No country has ever practiced communism. It is supposed to appeal to the lower class. Yet the upper class are the ruling party. A major hypocritical contradiction.

Then there's Buddhists, Hindu's, aborigines, many native American Indian tribes until they were wiped out by the sweaty greasy white man pig christian brethren, Gaia Mother earth who were and are at one with the land, believe in life's and earth's inner connection along with evolution and is now a proven. Hmmmm socialism? Everybody sharing with everybody and everybody getting along.

"Socialism is a worldwide inevitability" I was told by my government teacher way back in 1980. I'd have to agree with him if there is to be worldwide peace.

Make no mistake. There are 5 things that must happen in order for worldwide peace to occur and everything else falls into these categories... 1. Get rid of all religion. 2. Get rid of all money/ wealth 3. Get rid of all guns and higher weapons of mass destruction. 4. Get rid of borders. 5. Get rid of the media

Summary
Donald Trump is as good as a dictator as this country has ever seen and an evil one
Bernie Sanders would have been great for this country
Debate Round No. 1
Abbelle

Con

There is no evidence that Trump squashes the poor like you said he does. On the very contrary, he reduced the unemployment to a rate never seen before, which helps the poor more than any Welfare program. Working is the one and only way out of poverty and it should be, because it's the only fair way and this is what Capitalism is about. But this debate is about Socialism, not whether Trump is good or bad and, therefore, there is no reason to talk about him here.

Yes, kings and queens are dictators (unless under Parlamentarism, because they don't have power to do basically anything), they're not chosen by the people, they have way too much power concentrated and can change overnight

Socialism, as you said, depends on people sharing and getting along and this is exactly why it's doomed to fail: it challenges human nature. People are not born good, they're born selfish and shaped by the society they live in. Take babies as an example: if you don't give them what they want, they make your life Hell. Laws are very important to guarantee everyone's basic human rights, such as life, because, if there was no law, everyone would do whatever they felt like, which means, you can't assure that everyone is going to share and get along.

With that said, everyone sharing and getting along (your definition of Socialism) is impossible. After all, everyone thinks differently, has different opinions, tastes and visions of right and wrong and, therefore, conflict is inevitable. You can't make everyone get along unless you take away their free will, which is impossible. Although, you can make everyone share

Making everyone share would require laws. Putting laws on how much you can have, how much you would need to give. It's the only way because of human nature, people wouldn't share otherwise, or at least not enough to reach equality. But if you do this, power becomes concentrated in those who did that laws, creating a dictatorship. Socialism and freedom can not coexist.

Besides, a redristibution would be just unfair. Those who have money worked and earned it, so it's theirs by right. If someone has two cars and someone has none, the one who has two worked for them and the one who has none can have two if he works for it. He doesn't have the right to take one from the one who has two just because he needs it more. The idea that he does is called Vital Space Theory and guess what? It's a Nazi theory.
backwardseden

Pro

Oh absolutely there is rock solid evidence that Trump squashes the poor. I"m proof of that. I live at the poverty level. He does 0 to help those who live at the level that we do. He is only concerned about himself and "winning" at all costs and his superior ego god complex and nothing else. And if he doesn"t get his way he cries, moans and groans like a little baby throwing his rattle. There"s a lot of things he has in common with the god in which nobody can even prove exists from the idiot bible. A welfare program? Yeah with ridiculous contingencies so that the rich come out ahead. Naturally. Oh and btw, I can"t possibly work. I have problems both mentally and physically. What about people like me which number in the millions? Naturally we are discarded like flies on a penniless arcade.

Yes Kings and queens and dictators do have too much power. Its like a ref in a soccer match. Unlike any other sport, they have THEE power.

"Socialism, as you said, depends on people sharing and getting along and this is exactly why it's doomed to fail: it challenges human nature." Ever watch Star Trek? Especially Star Trek The next Generation? They get along just fine. People are born good. You have to be taught to be bad. Its just like religion. Everybody, no exceptions, none, are born as atheists. You have to be taught religion. Buddhists, Hindus, those who were native American Indian tribes (most of them) before they were wiped out, the aborigines, especially those engrained in Gaia Mother Earth, etc etc etc they know how to share without war or hate. Religion, especially christianity teaches you how and what to hate. "shaped by the society they live in." Yes---they---are.

"Take babies as an example: if you don't give them what they want, they make your life Hell." No they don"t. Babies learn very quickly who is the master. When to cry for something and when not to.

"Laws are very important to guarantee everyone's basic human rights, such as life," Depends which country and or area of the world you live in. "because, if there was no law, everyone would do whatever they felt like," Which means peace from those previously mentioned. Do you see any hate or evil going on within them? No. Its taught. And religion teaches it. Not socialism. "which means, you can't assure that everyone is going to share and get along." But strange isn"t it, that the people"s and cultures mentioned they get along just fine.

"With that said, everyone sharing and getting along (your definition of Socialism) is impossible." Hardly. "After all, everyone thinks differently, has different opinions, tastes and visions of right and wrong and, therefore, conflict is inevitable." True. That"s the first correct thing you"ve said in this RD. But that conflict doesn"t necessarily mean war and hate. "You can't make"" Religion most certainly does through power then fear and control. That"s what most religions are. Not all. But is especially true of christianity. Its one of the main reasons why I am an atheist. "everyone get along unless you take away their free will," Who said you had to take away ---any--- free will? Regardless religion does that just fine, especially christianity in which you have 0 free will. None.

"Making everyone share would require laws." Every society has laws. Did it ever dawn on you that there would be "peaceful" laws? Evil is not a need. Evil is not a requirement. Evil is not a necessity. Only in religion it is. Especially in the world of christianity and its god where evil is taught day by day. "Putting laws on how much you can have, how much you would need to give." How do you give in religion? With religion, its "believe in me or else." "It's the only way because of human nature, people wouldn't share otherwise, or at least not enough to reach equality." And yet its done with those mentioned. Again part of the main reason is, is evil and hate is not taught nor practiced whereas with religion, especially christianity it is. "But if you do this, power becomes concentrated in those who did that laws, creating a dictatorship." Strange isn"t it that within all mentioned, none have a dictatorship. Not---even---close. Yet strangely that"s exactly what most religions are, especially especially especially christianity. You couldn"t have described it any better. "Socialism and freedom can not coexist." Absolutely it can.

Besides, a redristibution would be just unfair. Redistribution: 1. a distribution performed again or anew. 2. Economics. the theory, policy, or practice of lessening or reducing inequalities in income through such measures as progressive income taxation and anti poverty programs. Who said anything about redistribution?

Who said anything about money and or wealth? Oh but wait, Donald Trump is a billionaire and then some. Would we all feel sorry for him if we distributed his wealth, all of it, to those who need and require it and he was reduced to the poverty level? HELL NO! "He doesn't have the right to take one from the one who has two just because he needs it more." There"s the idea of you working at a laundromat for 20 years and you are a struggling single mother of five. Then someone working at a software company for 6 months and he"s single. That person who works at the software company makes double the amount that you have made. Is that fair? No. That"s why socialism works is because you get into the job that you love to do or are guided to. You do away with something so ridiculously stupid called "money" and "wealth". As stated, that"s one of the things that"s needed to be gotten rid of if there is to be worldwide peace.

Nazi theory appeals to the upper class. That"s hardly socialism.
Debate Round No. 2
Abbelle

Con

because, if there was no law, everyone would do whatever they felt like," Which means peace from those previously mentioned" no, without law, there is no punishment for murder, for example. Law is necessary because not everyone thinks the same. Some people think it's ok to steal, what do you do with them if there is no law?

"But that conflict doesn"t necessarily mean war and hate" in most of the situations, yes it does mean hate and violence and this is why laws are needed. A world with everyone sharing and getting along is not possible.

"Babies learn very quickly who is the master. When to cry for something and when not to", well, this is because parents show them who is the master. It's because parents teach them that they can't have everything they want and that selfish is wrong. In other words, parents put law to their children.

"Ever watch Star Trek? Especially Star Trek The next Generation? They get along just fine" the fact that the only example you could give me of a society that works like this is from fiction is just pathetic. In fiction, characters think however the writer wants them to. They're born good if the writer wants them to. But in real life, people are born selfish and this is human nature.

"Did it ever dawn on you that there would be "peaceful" laws?" don't build straw men, please. What I mean here is laws that force you to share. This is theft. It doesn't matter if the law is "peaceful", you're punished if you don't follow any law and being punished for not sharing is forced altruism, which equals slavery.

These are the rebuttals of all your arguments. I'm not responding to your red herrings, most of your argument consists in talking about religion and Trump, which is obviously not what's being discussed here. It seems to me like you hate rich people and all your argument is based on that
backwardseden

Pro

To refresh your memory I previously mentioned the aborigines, most native American Indian tribes before they were wiped out, Gaia Mother Earth, Buddhists, Hindus etc etc etc...
"because, if there was no law, everyone would do whatever they felt like,"Which means peace from those previously mentioned" no, without law, there is no punishment for murder, for example." And you know this - how? And yet strangely this, rarely, if ever occurs within those mentioned. Now why is that? Crime---must,---for---the---final---time---be---taught. It just doesn't appear in the brain and someone says "ah ha I'm going to go out and murder someone". Oh but wait, that's what the storybook nymph bible says. Then great! That must mean that this Cain character has power over its god that created him to kill. Pathetic and amazingly generic. Now if true, then how come, and why is it true that we do not hear of murders, crime and or whatever occurring within those that have been put forth unto you? So go right ahead and you tell me or anyone just where and how did this Cain character get is POOF amazing idea to kill his brother? Wow you must think that without law, everybody is going to become a murderer or become crime rambunctious.
Law is necessary as later mentioned in the round. PEACEFUL law. Not the hate and evil that is specifically taught within religion and specifically taught with christianity and "believe in me or else" concoction.

"But that conflict doesn"t necessarily mean war and hate" in most of the situations, yes it does mean hate and violence and this is why laws are needed. A world with everyone sharing and getting along is not possible." That's only according to you as 100% of everybody is evil and hate. Then you have just proven, not only to me but to yourself, that there is absolutely no hope whatsoever for humanity and I see no reason for me to finish this debate and read the rest of what you have to say.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RegularGuiseppe 4 months ago
RegularGuiseppe
#stopdebatinghere
Posted by Abbelle 4 months ago
Abbelle
Stop debating here
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
She attempts suicide by jumping off of a high dive into a pool with no water. Naturally she survives. It breaks her back so she can scarcely walk without severe intense pain. She has a limp. Naturally the hospitals will NOT give her painkillers. So she turn to prostitution to get crack and cocaine as that will kill the pain. She then gets AIDS and dies. I seriously doubt if she had a single happy week in her entire life. And I asked her what she wanted most and she responded "a family".
The second was told to me by a lifelong friend who one worked as a person who would watch over patients at psych wards. I cannot remember what he stated his title was, nevertheless... He told me of one girl in which is so shocking every time I think of it, It makes my life, and I've had it rotten which would fill a full length novel, look like an atom as compared to the big bang and so does my friend above, he told me of her that she was raped so bad by her father that her a$$ turned into her vagina. Now if you can even imagine that one and you can contemplate the you know what true suffering is? Sorry little rugrat, you'd be flat---out---lying and you know 0% of nothing.
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
2. Evil is not a need, requirement nor a necessity but according to the christian god it is. 3. Buddhists, Hindus, aborigines, Gaia Mother Earth, nearly all native American Indian tribes before they were wiped out etc etc etc do not teach evil. Suffering happens yes meaning physical pain, mention war (yes when brought unto them but its NOT taught BIG DIFFERENCE "my religion teaches this blah blah how to pick up a spear an go out and kill someone for no reason), "You've been disillusioned to hating monotheism and western Christianity." Um nope. "You clearly know nothing about other religious cultures and other cultures in general" Then you prove that Buddhism, Hindu's, nearly ALL,not several, of native American Indian tribes before they were wiped out by YOUR christian sweaty pig white man, those that believe in Gaia Mother Earth who are at one with the earth, the aborigines etc etc etc practice and teach "war" thus evil and how to murder someone else that is NOT within their dwellings WITHOUT "war" coming unto them. Got it? Oh and btw, Buddhism, Gaia Mother Earth are NOT a religion, so those that practice Buddhism and Gaia Mother Earth will be canceled from this. Now here's something you don't get and I'm not saying that the aborigines are and were religion (I don't know, they probably were) Hindu's are, most native American Indian tribes were, etc etc etc religious. But they never fought over what they believe(d) in for the mere sake of what they believe in. Atheism ---never fights over for the mere sake of atheism. Not one, not one major war. Whereas religion, yeppers, christianity does-it-all-the-time. Now you brought it up, so you stick to it.
Tell yah what why don't I tell you of someone I once knew... Her stepfather raped, beat and tortured her from 4 all the way up until 17 sometimes twice per week. That was only the beginning of her horrors. She then gets married, they have a kid, they get a divorce, the state takes the kid.
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@RegularGuiseppe - "couldn't be addressed one at a time since there isn't a sufficient character count to do so" Actually no, that's not what you said. Not even close. Do better. Stick out your tongue with tweezers and a jackhammer. Maybe you'll get it right. But even worse is, you didn't even try to counteract what was put forth in RD1 or at anytime in regards to immorality from YOUR god and completely avoided it. So what you did was be the typical christian and completely avoided evidence of YOUR bible being completely immoral (in which it is) when slapped right in your face and you thus rambled on and on and you expected me to follow YOUR totem pole ideals, in which I did, but only to a certain point. That point in being when I simply got sick and tired of your sneering little schoolboy attempts to circumvent what was put forth unto you by your so-called what you think unto you is your whiny unabridged intelligence. Well its not.

Communism. As stated previously is a philosophy that can ---never--- be acted out. It is supposed to be run by the lower class (which is a very good idea) and yet it is the upper class that rules it. Talk about one-heluva HUGE major hypocritical contradiction.

"There is no clear cut argument for socialism to be the end all governmental style." There is no clear cut for ANYTHING. But until something is thought up that is better, socialism wins as everything else that has been tried has utterly failed miserably -that's on a large scale. Socialism has not really been tested nor tried, anywhere on a large scale. So who knows. But let's be honest, just like within ANY government, you---gotta---have---good---people---running---it otherwise its doomed for failure.

"Human psychology has nothing to do with socialism in regards to evil." Well that statement is a confusing messy blurb. One not stated by me as you imply. 1. Human psychology and socialism are 2 different things.
Posted by RegularGuiseppe 4 months ago
RegularGuiseppe
@baclwardseden
I did read your verses and points, stripped from the "Dossier of Reason", and I directly stated in my first comment that they couldn't be addressed one at a time since there isn't a sufficient character count to do so. I did t expect you to roll over and submit to what I was saying but to respond in a coherent way. You didn't accept anything other than your own answer and you gave me a predicated rule for debate in an attempt to control the debate. Regardless, this has nothing to do with the debate at hand...stick to that.

I'm familiar with your point about socialism being inevitable. The notion is that not ends of the spectrum, capitalism and communism eventually move into socialism. The problem with that theory is that it doesn't take into account the social problems that arise and lead to another political shift. There is no clear cut argument for socialism to be the end all governmental style.

Human psychology has nothing to do with socialism in regards to evil. Also, evil is not solely defined by religious beliefs. Your claims about Buddhism, Hinduism, Native Americans, etc. is false. The way you define evil, simple suffering and to mention war, has been present in all civilizations ancross human history. You've been disillusioned to hating monotheism and western Christianity. You clearly know nothing about other religious cultures and other cultures in general

This guy you're talking about is a troll...nothing else.

Also, you've avoided my question entirely. WHAT ARE THESE PHYSICAL AND MENTAL STRUGGLES OF YOURS?
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@RegularGuiseppe - Wow. You being the contradictory hypocrite then you should have not entered my debate on "the bible is immoral". You didn't even take a look at RD1 and try to confront it. And yet you expected me throughout the debate to swallow your every whim. Now granted I don't know that much about socialism, but given the circumstances of governments, and the outgoings of religion, and as stated by my government teacher wayyyyyyyyyy back in 1980, "socialism is inevitable". and he's right. So socialism is an easy go with all other governments given more than a try and socialism not, the answer is obvious. To help each other and to get along with each other, wow, it seemed like a disease to pro and unto you. Well tough. Now what pro tried to do throughout the debate, and stupid me did not pick up on it until right now was compare human psychology and not government status. And she really doesn't know that much about human psychology and how it behaves. She guesses and takes the trademarks of man being born evil which has nothing to do with peaceful inheritance. You MUST be taught evil which is where religion and god comes in. Evil is NOT a necessity. Evil is NOT a need. Evil is NOT a requirement. Only in god's corrupt bankrupt world it is. You are not taught evil in Buddhism, Hinduism, nearly all of the Native American Indian tribes until they were wiped out. Gaia Mother Earth, the aborigines etc etc etc. Strange isn't it that these people's live in peace and others don't. Now why is that? And since pro take the ideals of man being born evil, then she does not give much hope for the survival of the human race. Now you want evil? It happened today in another debate right here on debate.org. This guy TRUMPMAGADONALD was TAUGHT evil. And please make every effort to make sure he's banned as I have and I know others have. http://www.debate.org... This guy is a piece of s--t.
Posted by RegularGuiseppe 4 months ago
RegularGuiseppe
@Abbelle
I agree, it was quite off topic and off-color for him to posit such weak information and such emotionally charged and unrelated information. I'm sure he's genuinely a nice person, but his debating skills are...not so refined and effective. His debates almost exclusively revolve around religion, if the topic doesn't involve it, like this one, he tries to insert it into the debate. Then he personally attacks his opponent, uses bad sources, and uses anecdotal stories to defend his claim; there is no objective reasoning at all and it's downright rude.

P.S: I'm unable to vote, but I would give you the vote on all accounts. I need to participate in more debates to vote. Good job Abbelle!

@backwardseden
I read your first sentence, and it makes no sense of you to enter into a debate without a solid claim, no matter the direction of said claim. You enter in with nothing, muster up a claim that nothing is truly socialist; if we cannot clearly define it, then nothing can be called "socialism"...your argument is self-defeating.
I'm not personally attacking you, so I'm not sure why you're doing that to me. I asked a genuine question with the intent of learning more about you in the pursuit of understanding your struggle...to empathize with you, not sympathize or attack you. I don't claim to know how you, or anyone else, have suffered and I'm sure you have great friends that care about you and I'm glad you do, but I'm just curious about what you're going through. I'm sorry that you dislike me, the sentiment is not shared; it's not fair to you or myself to dislike one another because of some simple debating. However, you seem to be quite full of yourself with your belittlement of other people that disagree with you...it's deplorable and unwelcome.
I see what you tried to do by mimicking when I told you to, "Do better!" but you have not done better, yourself...please do so next time before you tell me to do better.
Posted by Abbelle 4 months ago
Abbelle
@backwardseden just doesn't understand: we're NOT talking about the bible. What he said was, like, 90% bible, 5% Trump + rich hating, 3% talking about his personal problems and 2% actually argumenting for socialism
Posted by backwardseden 4 months ago
backwardseden
@RegularGuiseppe - You really have the brains of a tire iron lung that is well hung and is nothing more than flat breasted junk. Still can't READ can yah? What did my very first sentence from my first round specifically say?
Now here's the difference between you and me. There's 0 hope for humanity with your god in it. There's 100% hope for humanity if other things take place... get rid of wealth/ money, get rid of guns and higher weapons of mass destruction, get rid of borders, get rid of the media. Everything else falls into those categories.
Oh and as far as my mental problems, you have no idea what they are. Oh and are far as coupled with my physical problems indeed you have no idea, none as to what true suffering truly is and then I could tell you of others who have had it far far farrrrrrrrr worse. Oh and btw, I unlike you, I've got genuine friends that would absolutely die for me in which some of them I've known for 43+ years. Why, we don't B.S. each other. We are also not full of ourselves, unlike your special headband that specifically states "I'm a beach blanket bimbo blond who bores a boring bore" Oh pretty please do do do wap do better.
Bye.
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