The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
The Contender
mrmaninblack
Con (against)

Societies with strict gun laws are safer

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Debate Round Forfeited
mrmaninblack has forfeited round #3.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/7/2021 Category: Technology
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 495 times Debate No: 127278
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

billsands

Pro

Many exAmples most societies with strict gun laws are very safe, And the stricter the laws the safer the society, There are exceptions, But the general rule and science studies show stricter laws make safer societies
mrmaninblack

Con

In most cases, This is actually not true. In fact knife murderers are way up in places like UK where there is a total gun ban except for sport and some special police units. The overall murder rate (not just with knives) is quite high despite no guns.
In fact, Their murder rate is very comparable to many states in the USA, And that is per capita, Not total numbers since the UK is not a very large area of land.

The problem with the pro's argument is that he does NOT define what "strict" means. Does he mean strict on criminals, Or strict on law abiding citizens and criminals? It makes no sense to be strict on law abiding citizens, Since they are NOT criminals. Strict with criminals, Well that's a no-brainer. It is obvious you want harsh punishments for the delibrate and harmful misuse of a firearm.

If law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves with a gun against a criminal with a gun, Then they are at a severe disadvantage. Attempting to destroy all guns leaves only the military, Police and government agencies with weapons, Putting the people at risk of a tyrannical government overtaking of our rights and our possessions. Not only do we need weapons to defend ourselves against a common criminal, But also criminals in government, Like stalin, Hitler, Castro, Etc.

Also, Criminals by definition do not follow the law. They are not going to give up their guns. Think about it, They murder and rape people, Do you really think they care about a law that says they can't have a gun? And just one criminal with a gun is enough to kill potentially hundreds of unarmed law abiding citizens in a short period of time. Possibly more.

It is simply tyranny to put that many people at risk, Even if it's just one criminal who is not willing to give up their stolen or potentially home-made gun.

Again, If guns are so dangerous to human life, It makes sense to allow law abiding citizens to have them so they can protect themselves from a mass murderer. One good guy with a gun is all it takes to kill one bad guy with a gun.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

sigh the homicide rate in the uk is The homicide rate in the UK was 1. 2 per 100, 000 the USA? The US murder rate was 5. 0 per 100, 000, So our homicide rate is over 5 time higher, Now it gets complex true uk homicide rate have fluctuated but why can you show in a definite way that this is due to gun laws? Co relation does not prove causation does it?
The phrase "correlation does not imply causation" refers to the inability to legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them. The idea that "correlation implies causation" is an example of a questionable-cause logical fallacy, In which two events occurring together are taken to have established a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known by the Latin phrase cum hoc ergo propter hoc ('with this, Therefore because of this'). This differs from the fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc ("after this, Therefore because of this"), In which an event following another is seen as a necessary consequence of the former event, And from conflation, The errant merging of two events, Ideas, Databases, Etc. , Into one.

As with any logical fallacy, Identifying that the reasoning behind an argument is flawed does not necessarily imply that the resulting conclusion is false. Statistical methods have been proposed that use correlation as the basis for hypothesis tests for causality, Including the Granger causality test and convergent cross mapping.
Let ME USE ONE EXAMPLE that i am familiar with my family is from the Netherlands, The Netherlands has very strict gun laws, Not as strict as the uk youcan have a revolver for target or even a semi atomatic ak like rifle for collectors, But to get a gun like thta or any gun, Be prepared! You must go through backround checks mdeical exams training join a gun club and then wait a year at least for the members(not the govt but the private members to give you an ok) you don't just walk into wal mart even places like Czech and the swiss with more liberal laws or even iTALy have easier laws that the uk BUT are still very strict by US standards you need permits for most guns registrtion back round checks in all these places even in swis and czech
and these places have homicide rates of between. 5 and. 7 about one tenth our s Image result for italy homicide rate
Homicides in Italy have decreased by 20% in the last ten years, With 0. 6 murders per 100. 000 people. In fact in 2017, 357 individuals were murdered in Italy, A number that decreased even further between August 2018 and July 2019, Where 307 murders were registered. Again lberal by uk standard but still super strict compared to even nEW YORK OR CALIFORNIA you need a license and must register every gun!
now let me say this about London, Back in january of 2018 for teo months THE HOMICIDE RATE SPIKED and went above NYC rate, And then dipped back to a much lower rate, Why? No one knows why but often uk crime rates are affected more by police fundng than gun laws, Never in the past 100 years have the British kept guns in their homes for protection, It simply is a legal no no and not needed really uk gun laws were always very strict when they got stricter the rates spiked and then dropped, Why is confusing but police budgets seem to have a bigger role than guns because as said for the past 200 years the uk has been pretty much a gun free society few had guns and the laws merely tightened an already strict policy
so to say gun control made crime go up is not causally proven, Again what studies how is cuts to polics budgets have proven to explain the spikes as as soon as police numbers drop crime soars
in. . Was The Claim True?
In the narrowest sense, The claim was somewhat true for a very short period of time. There was a short stretch in early 2018 in which there were fewer than expected murders in New York City and an unusually high number of murders in London. This occurred in February and March of 2018. However, Even during that quarter-year, There were more murders in New York City than London due to a great disparity in January of 2018.

In 2017, The number of homicides in London was slightly higher at 140 incidents " a homicide rate of 1. 59 per 100, 000 residents. The 2017 figures include those killed in the London Bridge terror attack in June that year.
Of the cities examined, Baltimore, Detroit and Chicago had the highest murder rates at 55. 8, 39. 8 and 24. 1 respectively.
The largest US city " New York " had a relatively low murder rate of just 3. 4 murders per 100, 000 residents. Over double the New York rate
and let remember how Strict gun laws are in NYC you can't walk into wal mart and buy a gun you have to be Licensed inNYC t isnt Texas which is why NYC IS WAY SAFER THAN DALLAS 9. 8 per 100, 000
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX the homicde rate in dallas is over three times NYC ok? Thats should be proof of how well gun control works right there Usually, All firearms must comply with the NY SAFE Act, Which bans firearms that it defines as assault weapons from ownership by private citizens, Unless they were owned prior to the ban. The City of New York has its own set of laws, And requires permits to own any long gun or pistol.

Gun laws in New York - Wikipedia
mrmaninblack

Con

The pro has not addressed any points I have made and his reply does not rebut anything I've said.

(OUT OF 100, 000)
London in 2018: 136
New york in 2018: 289
Baltimore in 2018: 300+

(Rates)
Londin in 2018: 1. 54
New York: 3. 46
Baltimore: 5+

(Population)
London in 2018: 8. 9 million
New York: 8. 6 million
baltimore in 2018: over 600, 000

As you can see, Among the three examples baltimore has the highest murder rate. Yet they have the LEAST amount of people out of the three.

Now let's compare london's KNIFE MURDER RATES to ENTIRE US STATES!

In 2018 there were about 70, That's right SEVENTY knife murders in london.
Do you understand that this number alone is higher than the entire US states (individually not combined of course) of
North Dakota, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, And Wyoming? Understand that no place in the world is free from murder, At least not on larger scales that i can think of! However, The murders in those listed states are mostly done with GUNS. Yet those ENTIRE us states still have a lower murder rate, Of not only the total murder rate of london in 2018, But also JUST their KNIFE murder rate in 2018.

SEVENTY knife murders but 136 total murders in london in 2018. Let's not forget that around 35 or so of these murders every year ARE DONE WITH GUNS. Yes, And that number is still higher than any of those states! GUNS IN LONDON! You heard it right! People still get killed with illegal guns in london! And it is at a higher rate than those US states where guns are LEGAL!

What this means is that there are far more complicated variables to compute here. It's not just guns. It's more about demographics, Corrupt governments, Culture, And the malignment of pity for criminals which is a bit different here than it is in london.

Let's take another look at other countries.

Japan has one of the lowest murder rates in the world, Yet they have NO guns. To say that guns create high murder rates, Well, London still has over 30 gun murders every year! Yet japan has hardly any! Both countries have banned civilian use of guns except for specific purposes at least in the case of UK, And they have a lower crime and murder rate!

Then we take a look at switzerland. In switzerland, If you are male and able-bodied, You are REQUIRED BY LAW to own a fire arm. Actually I think they want you to own at least 2 types of weapons. You are also required by law to TRAIN WITH A FULLYL AUTOMATIC MILITARY ASSAULT RIFLE every year. Switzerland has the HIGHEST gun ownership in the WORLD, And you know what? THEY HAVE LOWEST MURDER RATE IN THE WORLD TOO!

So again what this means is that you are biased in your beliefs about guns and their factoring in murder rates. It seems rather, You have taken a hostile stance against american culture for some reason, Because there really is no reason to believe that gun ownership is the problem here, It's clearly not.

Alas, The pro has not actually addressed ANY of my arguments in my round 1 post.
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

look at cdc figures every year there are 100 k stabbings and only 1 k deaths

30 k shooting and 15 k deaths
guns are much more deadly than knives i will post stats in comments since they are not posting here
also some data showing that swiss gun laws are much stricter than americans think, Which is why there crime rate is lower
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
data from converstionalist
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
Switzerland"s gun culture is closely linked to the country's national defense service. Able-bodied men between the ages of 18 and 34 are subject to compulsory military service. They can keep their service weapon at home, But they"re required to store all army ammunition in central arsenals.

Comparing Swiss and American gun culture is like comparing apples and oranges.

One is a small landlocked country in the middle of Europe. The other encompasses millions of square miles of territory. Both states" relationships to firearms is rooted in their history and their culture, Which influences how people view them in society. In the latter, The right to bear arms was created to protect against evil within the borders, But in the former, It was designed to protect the country against foreign invaders.
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
The main conditions are that you have to be at least 18 years old, Have no criminal record or addictions, Not be placed under guardianship, And not identified as being a danger to yourself or others. To ensure that the last condition is fulfilled, Authorities might consult a prospective gun buyer"s relatives or even demand a certificate from a psychiatrist. Verifying all of these conditions at the local and federal level can take a while, Meaning there are wait times on top of these requirements.

Moreover, Firearms purchases and transfers are recorded, Allowing for a registry of weapon holders. And although it is not uncommon to see a person in military service carrying their unloaded rifle, Gun-carrying permits are rarely issued, Except for people working in domains where it is needed, Such as security.
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
Contrary to popular belief, The Swiss example demonstrates exactly why stricter gun laws beyond the "red flag" laws are needed.

Not just anyone can buy a firearm in Switzerland. For pistols, Revolvers, And semi-automatic firearms, One must get a firearms acquisition permit, Which isn"t given out lightly, And is valid for one purchase only.
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
3. Switzerland has 45. 7 guns per 100 residents.
3. Switzerland has 45. 7 guns per 100 residents.
1. The U. S. Has 88. 8 guns for every 100 residents
ok? So its about half as many as we have half
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
do some research on switzerland they don't hav the highest gun ownership in the world far from it they are way down the list also do a but more research and see that the swiss have made their gun laws a lot more strict, And it has lowered their homicide rate greatly check it out
Posted by backwardseden 3 months ago
backwardseden
Yeah. They are "mrmaninblack" "my" arguments. Exactly where did he get them from rather than inventing nonsense? Yep it's not true because people can dodge a knife, You cannot dodge a bullet. Duh. It's a simple google. . .
'What is the percentage of knife crime in America? "
"When combined, Murders with guns comprised around 73. 6 percent of the 13, 927 total homicide victims recorded by the FBI in 2019. "
This isn't hard with a very big D-U-H as it is sooo much easier to murder/ kill someone with a gun than it is to murder someone with a knife. Also Con doesn't understand and or get that most murders are committed with legal guns.
Also, It is 100% false and truly ignorant that mrmaninblack mentions "If law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves with a gun against a criminal with a gun, Then they are at a severe disadvantage. "
Wow is that 100% false and shows his pale blue eyed socket screaming from his balls stupidity, Well um nope, As he's done absolutely no research on the subject, None. He's gotta be a teeny bopper who's clearly lied about his age, D-U-H, In a meager attempt to try to score points, A very bad idea.
* "Will a Gun Keep Your Family Safe? Here"s What the Evidence Says" Simply copy and paste the title to your search engine because DDO will not take the link(s). . .
"Yet research clearly shows that more guns do not keep people safer " they do the opposite. Having a gun in the home increases the chance for accidental injury, Homicide, And suicide, All of which have been shown to outweigh the potential protective benefits of firearms. "
* Does owning a gun make you less safe?
In short, Gun ownership does not increase safety, And the prevalence of guns directly correlates with significantly greater risk of gun-related homicides and suicides. While the facts surrounding the safety of having a gun in the home are clear, The choice to own a gun is more complicated for many homeowners.
There's many more.

mrmaninblack Please DO NOT invent excuses. K!
Posted by billsands 3 months ago
billsands
I will site studies if requested
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