The Instigator
Utumano
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Dinis
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

That Christian Theism is reasonable

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 594 times Debate No: 114171
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

Utumano

Con

First debate on this website for myself so have restricted the character count to 1000 to prevent large essays from forming.

Definition

Reasonable means to be valid, sound, and to be more probable than its (mathematical) conjugate

Christian Theism means an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, morally perfect, Trinitarian, immaterial, dimensionless and personal entity that has acted in the universe to fulfill a soverign purpose as described through the Christian tradition

I am trying to test some arguments out so will try to keep the debate fairly short as well

Of course all proper ettiquette is expected

I am of the con position that the Christian God is not reasonable for several reasons relating to internal contradictions regarding his character and necessary contradictions that follow from his existence.

I further argue that materialism is more reasonable than its opposite and therefore the belief in the Christian God is not reasonable.

Thanks you
Dinis

Pro

Sure, I accept this debate.

Upon a reasonable perspective, let"s start with God himself.

God can be all powerful, all seeing, and all loving. But He is not a trinity, that is a miscinstructed idea by the Catholic Church that can easily be disproven by the Bible itself. For example, when God speaks with his son Jesus and the Holy Spirit represented as a Dove, each separate.

Second, He is not everywhere at once. Reasonably, if He is all powerful, He can go anywhere without trouble and being everywhere at once doesn"t add any substance. He can see all, even thoughts, He has no point to be everywhere, so He resides in the spiritual Heavens
As well, Being all knowing doesn"t require you to be at that certain location.

So, God is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and He is a celestial being above the laws of the universe.

This is the God I support and is supported by the Bible. So, what may be your contradictions that I should answer?
Debate Round No. 1
Utumano

Con

Thank you for accepting the debate I have already learned the 1000 character limit is too small for either of us to post anything significant.

Arguments
1. Trinity contradiction from Unitarianism
G=F, G=S, G=H
S=F=H
But in Christian tradition
S=/=F=/=H

The Christian God is necessarily a trinity as that is crucial to the crucifixion narrative.
Secondly it is a widely held doctrine by about 47 of 50 denominations.
See https://www.quora.com...

2. Justice Versus Mercy
Justice by definition gives those what they deserve
In accordance with the crucifixion Justice is suspended by allocation of punishment to another non guilty entity and then forgiveness to others a mercy of sorts
Clearly mercy is in violation of Justice requirement of a Morally Perfect being

3. Dimensionless problem
In absence of dimensions in the immaterial no change can ever occur since change is always defined as a rate thus God is in stasis
Dinis

Pro

1. The trinity is not supported by the Bible. In many verse, God and Jesus are stated as individual people. The crusifixion is false in itself. One, when the Bible was written in its ancient language, the word describing what Jesus was hung on could be translated to "stake" or "post". Mentions of a cross were not described in earlier languages.

2. Human justice and Holy justice vary. Human justice is ineffective. Just by definition, a man who murdered would be sentenced to life, but a man who killed a robber in self defense technically would still have murdered and should be sentenced to life. Therefore, mercy and reasoning acts as the means to distinguish what right actions should be carried.
Alone, justice can not stand as one. Therefore, mercy and wisdom are needed.
Jesus died with no lasting repercussions, it was just a representation of how perfect beings can still be obedient to God

3.Stasis in which manner? God is already perfect, how much more can He become. That is a theory
Debate Round No. 2
Utumano

Con

1. The crucifixion narrative is not really dependant on specific details regarding if it was a cross or stake that is trivial but rather that he was executed as part of a ritual to take the sins of others.

Further there has been no argument that the trinity itself is not a well attested doctrine of Christian theology while I presented the evidence that the vast majority of Christian denominations subscribe to that doctrine as a core tenet.

2. A case of special pleading that just cause a doctrine is said to be holy does not allow it to remain contradictory

3. Pretty complicated but for an example recall that speed is just distance over time. In this sense all change can be conceived as a change in dimension A over dimension B but in a dimensionless immaterial plane there exists no dimensions upon which to induce a change therefore an immaterial being either has to operate under different logical parameters or else cannot change and therefore remains in stasis.
Dinis

Pro

1. Acceptance by many does not equal truth. The Bible itself provides evidence refuting the existence of the trinity.
Therefore, if the trinity does not exist, it is not a contradiction, since it is untrue.

2. I provided an example of the similarities between human and the Holy Justice of God. We humans know we shouldn"t condemn people solely based on definitions. Rather, we have a Supreme Court and use juries. We also have attorneys and lawyers. My case is that the mind of God is greater, He sees all, knows all, and has the perfect wisdom, making His judgements of justice superior. Look in the Bible and God always has a reasonable argument for His every action.

3. Concepts and ideas can not be felt. Yet they are liable to change.
Although you never extacly state what of God goes into stasis, He doesn"t need to change. For one, He is no human, He is a celestial being.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by LillieSteele 3 years ago
LillieSteele
God IS the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit. This concept can be confusing because they are also different people. It's just like this; Let's say we are 'one' with God. That doesn't mean we are the same person, right? We are still different just like God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit are different, though still united as 'one' through the Holy Trinity.
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
So your opponent has 1000 characters per round to make the case for a God that's "omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, morally perfect, Trinitarian, immaterial, dimensionless and personal entity that has acted in the universe to fulfill a soverign purpose as described through the Christian tradition "??!!!! That hardly seems fair since your first round alone (which contained no arguments) was 955 characters.
Posted by dukeofpanda 3 years ago
dukeofpanda
God of the Bible is not a trinity
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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