The Instigator
Knowledgeable
Pro (for)
The Contender
Nicholaspanda
Con (against)

The Bible Does Not Support The Doctrine of The "Holy Trinity"

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
Nicholaspanda has forfeited round #3.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/23/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,558 times Debate No: 111277
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (37)
Votes (0)

 

Knowledgeable

Pro

The doctrine of the "Holy Trinity" taught by Christians/Catholics, is a misconception and is not supported by the Scriptures. The teaching is that God the Father, Christ, who is the Son of Man, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, are all one being; they are all one person. Nowhere in the Scriptures does the text "holy trinity" even exist. It is a deceitful teaching solely to keep us mentally destroyed and enslaved, as well as controlled.

For this debate, Con (opponent) will be showing evidence supporting the doctrine of the so-called Holy Trinity. Pro (me) will be providing evidence which debunks the doctrine of the so-called Holy Trinity.

The rules:
(1) Must be Catholic/Christian or believe in the teaching of the "holy trinity".

(2) Must be capable of providing biblical scriptures to support your claims, statements, opinions, and/or ideas.

(3) Must stay on the topic we are discussing.

(4) Must be able to refute Pro's assertions, and vice versa.

(5) Failure to follow all rules will result in an immediate loss.

Debate settings:
- 5 rounds
- Time to argue: 72 hours
- 10,000 characters max for each round

Con, by accepting this debate, you adhere to the rules listed above. For round 1, I will allow my opponent to go first.

To my opponent: Good luck and thank you for accepting this challenge.
Nicholaspanda

Con

I want to thank my friend for presenting such an interesting and fascinating debate! However, I personally believe you have been misinformed about the 'Holy Trinity'. I hope we can reach a conclusion at the end of this discussion. In this round, I'll be expressing how the Bible supports the Holy Trinity.

What is the Holy Trinity

The "teaching is that God [the Father], Christ [who is the Son of Man], and the Holy Spirit, are all one being; they are all one person." This could also be referred to as a triune God. It goes like this: Tri - meaning three; and Unity - meaning one; which forms "Trinity". [1] Some critics have tried to show an illustration of the Holy Trinity. One famous example is the geometrical design: The triangle, for example, has three independent sides connected to form one shape.

s://www.gotquestions.org...; alt="Holy Trinity" />[3]



Now, this where it seems my friend and I disagree. My opponent is under the mistaken assumption that the Bible "nowhere" supports "the text" of the Holy Trinity. This is just an invalid assumption; I'll be showing why.

Biblical Support

To begin, as I assume my friend is always aware, nowhere in the Bible does it specifically state, "The one God exists in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." However, Dave Armstrong, an active Catholic apologist, and author writes,"The Trinity is a classic case where there are few “direct” proofs, but many many deductive or indirect proofs, which can hardly be dismissed by any person who accepts the inspiration of Holy Scripture: God's revelation." [2]

Additionally, we have pretty strong evidence that the Holy Trinity is real. One such example is provided in the gospels of Matthew (28:19-20 NIV), "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Examples

1. Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, . . . (Cf. 61:2; Jesus applies this to Himself in Lk 4:16-30)

2. Luke 3:21-22 . . . when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, [22] and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” (Cf. Mt 3:13-17)

3. John 15:26 But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; (cf. 14:26)

4. Acts 2:33 Being, therefore, exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear. (Cf. 7:55)

5. Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, (cf. Eph 2:18)

6.
1 Corinthians 6:11 . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (Cf. 1 Pet 1:2)

7. 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Examples (2)

Additionally, "equivalent characteristics in many respects are applied to all three Divine Persons, this sort of thing occurs over and over in the Bible:" [4]

1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).

2. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).

3. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

4. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).

Conclusion

I've provided Biblical evidence (with the help of Dave Armstrong's work) that shows that Trinity could very well exist. I'll be very intrigued by your response.

References

1. https://www.everystudent.com...;
2. https://www.gotquestions.org...;
3. Ibid (Picture)
4. http://www.ncregister.com...;

Note: All examples were provided by Dave Armstrong








Debate Round No. 1
Knowledgeable

Pro

*Due to the exceeding amount of evidence I required to efficiently refute Con's arguments, I have posted a link to Evernote that consists of my refutation. Con, I apologize for the excessive amount of scriptural proof I posted, but I needed to properly breakdown the scriptures, precept upon precept for a better understanding.

https://www.evernote.com...



Nicholaspanda

Con

I want to thank Pro for responding quite diligently. You brought up a lot of interesting points that made me question a few things. However, after a closer examination, I still believe the Bible supports the Trinity. Let’s see why:

Before we begin, I’d like to remind everybody of what I said in the first round, “The Trinity is a classic case where there are few “direct” proofs, but many many deductive or indirect proofs, which can hardly be dismissed by any person who accepts the inspiration of Holy Scripture: God's revelation." Let's begin:

1A. Picture

Allow me to apologize for the link not properly working. I wasn't really looking for you to refute the picture, I was just trying to demonstrate what the Trinity is. If the link doesn't work, please let me know in the comments and I'll send you a picture via message.

1. https://www.gotquestions.org... -> It's the first example picture shown.

2A. Matthew 28:19-20 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

My friend believes that this verse supports his claim; namely, because "there is a separation between the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The word "and" shows a separation between Father and Son. "And" connects words of the same part of speech, clauses or sentences that are that are to be formed jointly. A father and a son are not the same people. The Holy Ghost is the law, it is not an actual spirit."

His argument is somewhat surprising but also non-sequitur. At first, it looks like a pretty good contention against the Trinity, however, Pro’s point in using the word “and” highlights my point.

Father + (and) Son + (and) Holy Spirit = God. You don’t say “...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit…” This isn’t an argument, but moreover an issue of grammatical correctness. As for my friend’s remarks that the Holy Spirit isn’t a person, I disagree greatly. Which leads me to my second issue:

3A. Acts 7:51-53 - "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it."

My opponent believes that this verse "explains what the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is." However, this passage never implicitly or explicitly endorses such a position. "the resistance made by these persons was not to the Spirit of God in them, of which they were destitute, but to the Spirit of God in his ministers, in his apostles, and particularly in Stephen; nor to any internal operation of his grace, but to the external ministry of the word, and to all that objective light, knowledge, evidence, and conviction that it gave of Jesus's being the Messiah...so that this passage is no proof of the resistance of the Holy Spirit..." Id recommend looking at the following link which explains what the Holy Spirit is:

1. https://www.gotquestions.org...;

Moreover, let's move to my next objection.

4 A-B.

4A. Acts 7:38-39 - "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,"

4B. Exodus 19:5 "Now, therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine."

I don't really understand your argument here - please clarify in the next round.

5A. Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, . . . (Cf. 61:2; Jesus applies this to Himself in Lk 4:16-30)

Your argument seems to be logically invalid. If it's the "spirit" (as you suggest) of God's word it would be lowercased - but it's not - it's uppercased; signifying that it is a person. Your Biblical evidence is signifying to a spirit (LC) not a Spirit (UC).

6A. Luke 3:21-22 . . . when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, [22] and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee, I am well pleased.” (Cf. Mt 3:13-17)

My opponent's evidence is rejected as Act 7:51-53 does not explain what the Holy Spirit is but rather shows that Christians should get circumcised - and not be doing this, is against what God asks. "Christ sits on the right hand of God (Ps 110:1; Matt 22:44). So Christ couldn’t sit at the right hand of Himself. Acts 7:55 says Christ is standing on the right hand of God; not standing on the right hand of Himself because that does not make sense." Here is a link that provides a thorough analysis of your objection:

1. https://www.gotquestions.org...;

7A. Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, (cf. Eph 2:18)

The word "Spirit," here, evidently does not refer to the Holy Spirit, for he adds, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit." He refers here, probably, to the doctrine which he had been teaching in opposition to their notions and desires. [2]

8A. 1 Corinthians 6:11 . . . justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (Cf. 1 Pet 1:2)

Refer to 7A objection.

9A. 1. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Well, it was God the Father (Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10); it was also Jesus Himself (Jn 2:19; 10:17-18); and it was the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:11).

I think it's important when we talk about Christ, we must distinguish between Heavenly form and Earthly form. My opponent seems to be correlating Heavenly to Earthly form; which is a logical fallacy. As for the Timothy verse, I recommend looking at this link that demonstrates my point further:

1. https://www.biblestudytools.com...;

10A. Who gave the new covenant? The Father (Jer 31:33-34); Jesus (Heb 8:1-13; 10:29; 12:24; 13:20); the Holy Spirit (Heb 10:15-17).

Again, for your objection to the Holy Spirit, read the document from 3A. I don't really understand the rest of your argument; in fact, it seems (from what I can tell) you agree with me that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father are three in one.

11A. Who sanctifies believers? The Father (1 Thess 5:23); Jesus (Heb 13:12); the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:2).

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how your contention defends your position.

12A. Who is the creator? The Father (Gen 1:1; Is 44:24; Acts 17:24; Eph 3:9); Jesus (Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:8, 10); the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4).

Again, my opponent mixes Heavenly form and Earthly form terminology. He states, "Christ was created before the earth was formed." Yes, Christ was formed on Earth, but not in Heaven. Also, "The term “beginning,”... does not suggest a commencement in time for Jesus Christ. The Greek word that is rendered “beginning”... is arche. The term is employed in various senses in Greek literature.It may refer to the “beginning” of something if there is evidence available that the “something” indeed had a beginning, e.g., in “the beginning of the gospel” (Mk. 1:1).But this certainly does not exhaust the meaning of the expression."

Conclusion: I believe my friend hinges a lot on the premise that the Spirit "must be the law". I highly recommend looking at the links I provided for you that describe what the Holy Spirit is.

Debate Round No. 2
Knowledgeable

Pro

I tried to keep it as short as possible to stay within the character limit. However, I just have too much evidence to bring out to efficently prove my claims.


https://www.evernote.com...

This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
37 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Knowledgeable 3 years ago
Knowledgeable
@ Just-Call-Me-PK

There is not enough room to discuss this topic with you. If you'd like, we can debate whether or not GOD loves all nations or whether Christ is GOD the Father.
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
Salvation is not for everyone"
Maybe not all will be saved but the offer is certainly there.
1 Timothy 2:4
who (God) desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.
Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
"Are a father and son actually the same person?" Again I say no they are not the same person but the same being. The father is separate from the PERSON of Jesus Christ but has the same divine nature. Jesus confirms this elsewhere in scripture, John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple. The term "I AM" in the Old Testament refers to God, e.g when God revealed himself to Moses, so Jesus is calling himself God, that is why they took up stones to throw at him. So Jesus has always existed, because he is God, and I agree that he is a different person but not being and has always existed but not created because he is God and God cannot be created. This also refutes your comment, "He did not say from the Father, which I am." Because he literally did say this. "1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." To this I say Amen. You are simply missing the point of Christ's divine AND human nature. Do you have no response to the authority Jesus gave Peter and the church? And the clear scriptural evidence for tradition that I provided?
Posted by Knowledgeable 3 years ago
Knowledgeable
@FollowerofChrist1955

Can you show me exactly what scriptures I pulled that are personally interpreted or made up?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 years ago
FollowerofChrist1955
Knowledgeable
Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Stop spreading Denominations and remain speaking the scriptures "not" YOUR OPINION, it IS the reason you are lying, and anyone with a Bible knows it!

Thus your lies are easily counterered. You don"t speak Gospel, you speak Opinions! That Men may know you false;

Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Mark 16:15
15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Underline where it tells you to preach YOUR OPINION!
Stop LISTENING to personally interpreted scripture, that IS a Violation of 2 Peter 1:20 which is WHY your confused.

2 Peter 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Posted by Knowledgeable 3 years ago
Knowledgeable
John 10:30-33
30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE."

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:8 explains v7 and John 10:30. Are a father and son actually the same person?

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"

"I have shown you many good works from THE FATHER;...." - Do you see how He said from THE FATHER? He did not say from the Father, which I am.

33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."

"Again how clearer does scripture have to be?"

Scripture is very clear. Christ always separates Himself from The Most High God. Christ is the Son of God, He is not the Son of Himself. That doesn't make sense.

"Jesus is 100% man and 100% divine, thats how much God loves us, he became man for us in every way except sin. Jesus is at the right hand of the father in this reference as he is the second person of the revealed holy trinity. Even Genesis shows this,
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let US make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Who is the "us"?"

It seems that you agree with me that Christ is a different entity and He was the first created before anyone and anything else.
Posted by Knowledgeable 3 years ago
Knowledgeable
@Just-Call-Me-PK

The Bible is about race. God chose one nation of people. HE didn't chose the entire universe. Salvation is not for everyone.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

"for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." - That does not say to give repentance to all nations.

Now, what is sin?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So sin is transgressing or breaking the law. What nation was given the law?

Psalms 147:19-20

19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.

20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

Israel was given the laws, statues, and commandments. God has not dealt with any other nation.
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
again ironically scripture doesn"t say this, show me where scripture says this? I have to point you back to 2 Thess. 2:15, how much clearer does scripture have to be?
"God is not Christ and vice verse. Christ always separates Himself from the Father"
John 10:30-33
30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE."
31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?"
33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
John 1:1-3
1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and THE WORD WAS GOD.
2 He was in the beginning with God;
3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made"
Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14)
Again how clearer does scripture have to be?
Jesus is 100% man and 100% divine, thats how much God loves us, he became man for us in every way except sin. Jesus is at the right hand of the father in this reference as he is the second person of the revealed holy trinity. Even Genesis shows this,
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let US make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
Who is the "us"?
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
Regarding Isa 8:20, I can"t see how this passage supports bible only considering reading this verse and the previous verses the context shows Isaiah is referring to talking to mediums and getting involved in necromancy. Even so the passage still doesn"t say written word/bible only, even in the translation you provide it doesn"t say written testimony, it just says testimony. In fact three words later we see the word "speak" so if its possible to speak NOT according to the word it must follow it is also possible to SPEAK according TO the word. Here are just a few actual concrete scriptural examples that confirm the importance of tradition as well as scripture. The most obvious one being, 2 Thess. 2:15
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."
Also check out, 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Tim 1:13-14, 2 Tim 2:1-2, 2 John 12, Jer 25:3, 7-8. I"ll also quote 2 Peter 1:20-21 as it is scriptural proof of tradition and also the holy spirit as it doesn"t just say "moved by God" but rather "Moved by the holy spirit spoke from God" 2 Peter 1:20-21 "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one"s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" continuing on the path of the holy spirit (pun intended) again I never said that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit are one PERSON but rather one BEING revealed as 3 PERSONS, which is easily possible for an omnipotent being and is backed up scripturally, one more example being,
Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit" it doesn"t just say baptise in the name of the father or God, Jesus tells us the son and holy spirit are equal to the father.
"You can believe what you want, but if you cannot prove it in the Scriptures, then it's not true
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
@Knowledgeable, thank you for the response. I"m not sure why you are pushing the point of race as it has no importance in salvation. Peter was the head of the first Christian church which is the Catholic church today, Catholic simply means universal and was used to show the one true church as heretical and pagan views/practices of the church were also around, so this helped prevent people being led to scandal/heresy. Gnosticism for example. It can also be proved that today's pope, Francis is the successor of the first pope, St Peter. We know Peter is the head of the church as Jesus says it himself by changing Simon's name to Peter (rock) and then building the church on him, Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it" If we are to take Jesus on his word then Peter is the head of the church. Not only that, evil can not "prevail against it" furthermore, in the very next verse Jesus gives Peter and the apostles authority to "bind" and "loose" giving Peter "the keys to the kingdom" which is real authority! Because Peter and the apostles have authority to implement successors and we know the gates of hell could never prevail against the church then we know that today's pope is the head of the church. Not accepting the authority of the church is not accepting the authority Christ himself gave. This is why we have different religions and so many protestant denominations, because it is different opinion of man that separates them from Christ's church. Jesus even says this himself two chapters later, Matthew 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH.
Posted by Knowledgeable 3 years ago
Knowledgeable
@Nicholaspanda

I use the KJV 1611 Authorized version.
This debate has 4 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.