The Instigator
billsands
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
oalks
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

The Democratic Party has moved to the left because of Bernie Sanders

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 580 times Debate No: 120573
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

billsands

Pro

The whole Neo liberal paradigm of the Democratic Party, Has been broken fractured by one man, Bernie Sanders, Now everyone is jumping on the boat like it was their idea. But he was for these things way before they were popular ideas
oalks

Con

I accept this debate, And I will allow Pro to make the case for his assertion before making my own.
Debate Round No. 1
billsands

Pro

It is real simple
1) Bernie supported social democratic/democratic socialist polcies long bfore they became vogue
2) Now everyone has jumped on a train he created
i hate to make a post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument but in this case the man made the times, One man moved the Centrist Democratic party firmly to the left
oalks

Con

It is real simple, The democrats didn't move left because of Bernie.

Rebuttal

"1) Bernie supported social democratic/democratic socialist polcies long bfore they became vogue"

The burden of proof lies on yourself, Simply stating this isn't a sufficient argument. Democratic Socialism was an idea long before Bernie Sanders; in-fact, I would postulate the democratic party has been swaying into extremism for the better part of 60 years.

"2) Now everyone has jumped on a train he created
i hate to make a post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument but in this case the man made the times, One man moved the Centrist Democratic party"

He did not 'create the train, ' or the enthusiasm for socialism. The American left has been playing it's claws at this type redistributionism for a long time. Marxist philosophy specifically has been a creeping danger since the early 60s.
Debate Round No. 2
billsands

Pro

Any sursory investigation of American history will show that the united states has had a resistance to socialist ideals, Till now
and Bernie did that its simple they had no traction till he made it into congress he did that

DANGER? What you mean like in Denamrk or Norway/ that kind of danger?
oalks

Con

"Any sursory investigation of American history will show that the united states has had a resistance to socialist ideals, Till now"

You haven't provided any evidence for this assertion.

Any 'cursory' look would show American history isn't that easily reduced. Socialism in the United States can be traced all the way back into the 19th century. [1]

"DANGER? What you mean like in Denamrk or Norway/ that kind of danger? "

Yes, Marxism is a 'DANGER, ' contrary to what you may believe. This isn't relevant to the subject of Bernie himself unless you're willing to admit he's a communist.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. If we take Bernie Sanders at his WORD he is a Democratic Socialist. This is vastly different from the Nordic model in crucial ways, The Nordic model incorporates a largely free market to afford its expansive welfare system.

The general Norwegian economic model is more capitalist than the United States. [2]

Wikipedia isn't a viable source, But it hardly matters considering pro cited nothing himself.

[1] https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/History_of_the_socialist_movement_in_the_United_States
[2] https://en. Wikipedia. Org/wiki/Nordic_model
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by oalks 3 years ago
oalks
I meant to type the general Nordic model, Not "the general Norwegian model". The Norwegian economy is a mixed economy, And certainly not analogous to something like 'Denmark'.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"This is the normative statement portion, Supported by the prepositional phrase of "They can come back. ""
Yeah now I understand. Thought you were speaking about they can come back as the normative statement.

"I thought I already conceded this, "
I think you did and I did say that Trump is a not a racist so I didn't a point to bring for him being racist.

"appeals to populism aren't an exclusively right-wing strategy; coincidentally"
Yes examples of left populists are Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.

"I believe populism will gain traction if our economic system continues to alienate the lower-class and incentivize disparity. "
Yeah automation will be a problem that no-one in government is really providing a solution for people.
Posted by oalks 3 years ago
oalks
"they just need someone who cares about the party rather then leaching off it. "
This is the normative statement portion, Supported by the prepositional phrase of "They can come back. "

"I would call him a useful idiot not a white supremacist. "
I thought I already conceded this, I must've edited it over. My head is muddied because I'm quite tired.

"Don't know what you mean here. "
I just wanted to express that appeals to populism aren't an exclusively right-wing strategy; coincidentally, I believe I could've also misapplied my interpretation. I believe populism will gain traction if our economic system continues to alienate the lower-class and incentivize disparity.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"Well "can" implies 'possibility' and moreover, Something to go back to. "
Normative statement: a normative statement expresses a value judgment about whether a situation is desirable or undesirable. It looks at the world as it "should" be.
I didn't assign value to it or what should happen.

"I will not budge further because I simply have no evidence of him claiming ethnic-superiority. "
I would call him a useful idiot not a white supremacist.

"A simple example of an appeal to the populism elitism dichotomy is the 1% vs the 99% talking point. "
That is doesn't work. If you remove the 1% another 1% will takes its place. Sure we can reduce inequality but doubtful it can work with removal of the current 1%.

"Another example is proletariat vs bourgeoisie outlined by Marx. "
Don't know what you mean here.

"Perhaps I'm misreading this though, My degree is in psychology and not political theory. "
What did you misread?
Posted by oalks 3 years ago
oalks
Well "can" implies 'possibility' and moreover, Something to go back to.

"My argument is white nationalists support Trump but all Trump supporters are not white nationalist. "
This logic can be applied to most things, Especially within the realm of politics. I've already conceded he plays into the hands of white supremacists, I will not budge further because I simply have no evidence of him claiming ethnic-superiority.

I should clarify what I meant by elitism. A simple example of an appeal to the populism elitism dichotomy is the 1% vs the 99% talking point. Another example is proletariat vs bourgeoisie outlined by Marx.

Perhaps I'm misreading this though, My degree is in psychology and not political theory.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"Well there were implications which made it a normative statement. "
I said this: "They can come back" Not should.

"Unless you're willing to call the 60+ million people who voted for Trump ethno-nationalists. "
My argument is white nationalists support Trump but all Trump supporters are not white nationalist.

"Globalization is an interesting prospect, Often the two get confused. "
As in free trade.

"On a more important note: Fallout New Vegas is an awesome game. "
I was just playing that. Still have not finished with my current playthrough and have played about 38 hours on steam. I had the game physically and then decided to buy the steam version which was really cheap.
Posted by oalks 3 years ago
oalks
"It wasn't a correct or false statement. Instead it was a guess on what could happen. I would say in order for the DNC to be united is for Pelosi to step down and someone who is more capable taking charge. "

Well there were implications which made it a normative statement.

"He plays on the hands of white nationalists. If you asked white nationalists do they like Trump or not. They say they do and for the reasons that he is helping their platform without being racist which is amazing for them. "

Certainly they do, But they aren't the majority of the supporters. Unless you're willing to call the 60+ million people who voted for Trump ethno-nationalists.

"What do you mean? Are you against globalism? "

It depends on what you mean by globalism, It isn't a very precisely defined term. Globalization is an interesting prospect, Often the two get confused.

On a more important note: Fallout New Vegas is an awesome game.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
"you'd have to define what "coming back" would entail though. "
It wasn't a correct or false statement. Instead it was a guess on what could happen. I would say in order for the DNC to be united is for Pelosi to step down and someone who is more capable taking charge.

"I don't know if the resurgence of the economy was due to Obama or a lack of Bush. "
I have facts which showed a decrease before Obama then increased under Obama do you want to see it?

"Trump plays on this concern and draws people in. "
He plays on the hands of white nationalists. If you asked white nationalists do they like Trump or not. They say they do and for the reasons that he is helping their platform without being racist which is amazing for them.

"elitism. "
What do you mean? Are you against globalism?
Posted by oalks 3 years ago
oalks
"They can come back they just need someone who cares about the party rather then leaching off it. "

You're partially correct - you'd have to define what "coming back" would entail though. I'm not a fan of 2 party systems in general, And I think that structure can be partially blamed for the leeching.

I don't know if the resurgence of the economy was due to Obama or a lack of Bush.

"A white nationalist wants closed borders, Ban immigration but since we can't really say Trump is a racist that is the perfect man for white nationalists"

I'm all for legal immigration, My primary concern is circumventing criminals and traffickers. I believe Trump plays on this concern and draws people in.

"Unlikely populism is on the rise which does breed nationalism. "

I think the primary issue with populism is it's juxtaposed against elitism. Nationalism isn't inherently bad - just dangerous, As most good things are.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@oalks

"I think it was quite obvious the democratic party was headed in this direction, It has been for a long time. "
They can come back they just need someone who cares about the party rather then leaching off it.

"I can't really view Trump as being as bad as communists such as Bernie. "
I don't think you understand how bad Trump is. Trump has made more false statements then he has made correct ones. He has done nothing to reduce the national debt and even when people speak about the economy. Turns Obama should be credited for that.

"But as long as he doesn't get us into a stupid war I'll have a neutral opinion on the term itself. "
Yeah war is bad.

"Neoconservatism and white nationalism have been a problem within the Republican party for some time, I think they should start doing something about it. "
The problem is that Trump is in charge and is a useful idiot for them. A white nationalists wants closed borders, Ban immigration but since we can't really say Trump is a racist that is the perfect man for white nationalists. Allow Trump to say your ideas and he can default back to I am not a racist and white nationalists would be happy because he is helping them. I don't know if Trump knows this or not.

"Overall I'd be satisfied if we could return to a moderate level of incompetence, Which the United States hasn't seen in a long time. "
Unlikely populism is on the rise which does breed nationalism.
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