The Instigator
Pro (for)
The Contender
Con (against)

The Empire was Better than the Rebellion

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Debate Round Forfeited
Gamer_Dan13 has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/13/2016 Category: Movies
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,046 times Debate No: 96110
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)




1st Round: Acceptance

2nd Round: Opening statements

3rd Round: Rebuttals

4th Round: Closing Statements/Remarks


I accept and it'll be fun to see where you'll be going with this. :)
Debate Round No. 1


Good luck to my opponent!
First off, the empire had way more access to good weapons and had two death stars. The only reason that were blown up was because of the force. Most likely the empire would have one if Luke had not gotten involved. Plus, the Empire had a bunch of super smart and powerful people including Darth Vader, Emperor Palpatine, Grand Admiral Thrawn, Grand Moff Tarkin, etc. Emperor Palpatine would have killed Luke if Vader did not turn to the light side and disobey the emperor.

Second off, the Stormtroopers were better trained than the rebels. Yes, in the movies the stormtroopers had terrible aim, but they still killed a lot of rebels. There were so many troopers that they could destroy entire cities.

Finally, the empire persuaded many colonies to join them and were able to defeat the wookies so they could build the death star for them. The wookies are no easy opponent to defeat so this is a great accomplishment.

Thanks for reading and good luck again to my partner!


To begin with, the war has the characteristics of an insurgency-war similar to how the US faced an insurgency in Vietnam. The US obviously was superior in nearly all respects, in everything from intelligence to better armament, and yet any sensible person who's studied the war would come to the conclusion that as far as the expectations were for the US, US clearly lost the war because it didn't meet the basic criteria of accomplishments that were reasonably expected of it. The meager Vietnamese army used the benefits they had, such as the knowledge of terrains and tactical maneuvers developed by people who knew said terrain, to drive up the death toll of the Americans and incur damages that were unsustainable, to the point where they broke it even with US going home with their heads down in crushing defeat. We clearly apply different standards when judging the Vietnamese war effort compared to the US because of the different starting points they were coming from. The Vietnamese suffered catastrophic casualties and there's no comparison as far as that goes. But that is not the standard with which we judge the conflict but how well each respective party accomplished the goals they set out. From this outlook, US clearly lost.

The same comparison goes when comparing the rebel alliance with the Galactic army. They started out with two death stars and AT-ATs and other coolf stuff, and certainly seeing from that metric then the empire wins.

There are however many more major fails of the imperial army that really puts it splendor into question. While the Rebels are ably to carry off complex and coordinated joint missions with the fighter squadrons, the fleet, Special Operation Forces - even with obi Wan and the indigenous Ewoks. The empire's blunders in recovering the stolen Death Star plans with the rather bumbling policy of the squad leader to "If the door is locked, move on to the next one" that didn't really bore out any results, and their seemingly ineptness in coordinating operations between different unions, such as when the two Star Destroyers in chasing Han Solo nearly smash into one another. Another such example would be the defense of the shield of the forest moon of Endor which was before anything else just a major fail and so poorly defended that you start to wonder whether they learned anything from the slip-up of the first death star. The back-door to the shield defense was so lightly guarded that all you needed was a jihadi/suicidal rebel and you could have destroyed before the other haplessly deployed stormtroopers could do anything. Luckily for them the rebels don't have time to do any real damage before they come to save it in time, but that is still a huge oversight that could have costed them dearly.

The make-shift deployment ends up being their own undoing. Han Solo takes control of a AT-ST and manages to get in without any follow-up question or any safety protocols or anything from the guys in the chain-of-command. Perhaps that's because the system itself is very top-down and no one dares to give the emperor any bad news and so they just go along because they don't dare to question the emperor's personal legion. When the punishment for not reaching perfection is you being taken out by a choke-hold, it fosters a tendency among subordinates to lie to you. Perhaps that's why they can't manage to find the droids they're looking for or let the Star Destroyer be taken down by a single fighter. You could say the heavy cost of failure if a very flawed incentive-structure that invites failure.

After Admiral Ozzel learned of the location of the Hoth base, he seemed to take a long time, maybe weeks, to summon a military presence there and gain complete reconnaissance of the place. We can surmise this from the fact that the laceration on Luke's face from the encounter with the snow creature are healed by the time of the battle. To drop the droid too close to the planet obviously gave them off and therefore they lost the element of surprise. Furthermore, th rebels managed to set up the defense shield to avoid any bombardments. While the death of Ozzel might have been "warranted" the general might not even have been briefed on the situation before Ozzel died and the battle had commenced. There were no real back-up in the airspace and so the imperial army lost a lot of edge by deploying the AT-ATs to quickly. Also, they way the rebels managed to escape from there was jsut embarrising to say the least.

No, there are jsut to many slip-ups for me to really say they're "better".
Debate Round No. 2


Yes, the rebels had the upper hand with the upper terrain and the rebellion easily could have done many things that could have ended the war. In fact you made it seem that the rebellion was better and made my statement just seem to say that the empire was cooler, but let us look past all that. First off, many of the imperial navy officers were dumb and not very strategic at all, but they were just men who wanted to look cool and all. Second off, the storm troopers were just men who were trained poorly but were at least able to kill rebels.

The rebels were very victorious in the movies as you said above and were able to use some mistakes that the empire had, but if you look past all that and dig deeper, you will find that the Empire was very, very victorious. They won the battle of Hoth and killed many men, they trapped and almost killed Luke, Han, and Leia so many times(especially in the comics), and were almost able to make a comeback even after they lost their second death star. So yes, the Empire did have some faults, but if look all past that, you will find that the Empire was not a force to mess with.

Admiral Ozzel was a traitor. He did not follow commands as he should have which did lead him to die. Thankfully, he was replaced with better trained and a more reliable admiral.

Finally, we have had some speculations, from the new Rogue One trailers, that Jyn Erso's father may have had to do with the exhaust port. For all we know, he could have purposely built the exhaust port big enough for a missile to go through and blow up the death star. He could have been helping the rebels. Of course, this is not confirmed, but it may be true.

I am excited to see what my opponent has to say! Good luck. :)


For the purposes of this debate I only want to focus on the existing movies, not the comics or anything else that I frankly haven't had time to watch although I'd loved to when I've got the spare time.

If it weren't for the high-technological weaponry, then one might wonder how the Galactic Empire ever managed to gain it's hold on the Star Wars Universe since the fighting force itself is so off the rails bad. I can't seem to stress enough what a debacle Hoth was for the Empire because they should have landed a massive victory. The battle of Hoth shouldn't have played out the way it happened if handled by people who knew what they were doing (unlike Hillary Clinton, but that's a topic for another debate). In a warfare situation you want to preferably use all the elements of warfare such as infantry, armour, artillery, airforce etc. It was a tactical debacle and it made no sense whatsoever to only rely upon the, i.e. the AT-ATs, walkers at the start of the attack. This was evidenced when infantry, headed by Luke, managed to take down one single-handedly by the use of a grenade and another by the snowspeeders. Besides, the ATs don't even have that impressive a firepower and with the sluggish pace and having their aim directed forward being very cumbersome to turn, they prove far too easy to take down. There weren't enough AT-STs which would have been the perfect infantry backup and accompaniment, nor were there any storm troopers. They appear later, though, once Vader has arrived, however not in close proximity to the walkers to make any decisive difference in the outcome of the battle.

The single base only have a few artillery pieces defending it, protecting its main power generator with only one ion cannon as its main anti-aircraft/spacecraft defense. The shield can't, however, stop a landing force from entering and it can only open for a limited amount of time at a discrete place to allow an evacuation. The shield can't keep an invader out and their own escape is troublesome: a perfect setup for the enemy it seems.

Vader wants no one to escape alive. Yet he orders the destruction of the shield which allows for the pell-mell rebel escape without any TIE fighters present to block their retreat. Seems he didn't realize the ironic value of the shield after all. If the TIE fighters had engaged the rebels and lured them through the shields chokepoint with star destroyers waiting on the other side, the rebels would have had a massacre on their hands.

Also, what in the world does Vader do down at the base instead of having it blown to smithereens? There is no justifiable reason - militarily to say the least . reason why Vader should be down there in the first place. And no explanation is given why a bombardment isn't launched in lieu of having daddy pay his son a visit. So much for his major weapon against the rebels. Once the shield is down he's already lost the battle and all the major players have fled. Total fiasco! The whole situation is sort of reminiscent of how we failed to catch Bin Ladin in Tora Bora, Afghanistan, in 2001 and it was showcased as a tactical success in the aftermath. Yeah, well, the same goes here.

Also, remember how Palpatine explicitly ordered Vader to prevent Luke from receiving a full Jedi training? Well guess what, this debacle resulted in Luke fleeing to Dagobah without any star ships in his tails and the rest is history.

I think I've made my point about this battle that should have been a victory but was a total failure. They may have cool gears, but you know what, so did the Romans who eventually let themselves be overrun and outsmarted. So was the Empire.

Also, if Luke had more training and weren't jumped the way he was by Palpatine, then he might have been able to take him out.

So in the grand scheme of things, the Empire wasn't any better and had the situation been reversed they'd be as sure as dead.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Gamer_Dan13 2 years ago
who did
Posted by CalebIMclean 2 years ago
Nice you won!!!
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