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The idea of god and the teachings of religion are superstitious and show discrimination and cruelty

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/1/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 948 times Debate No: 36225
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
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Round one is acceptance, should you choose to accept.


Of course. Good luck and happy debating.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you, likewise. Note: When I speak of "God" I mean in a hypothetical sense.

I would like to start off by reiterating and explaining the title in more depth.
I believe that Religion is a basis for unfairness, discrimination, and is allegedly led by who I believe to be an unjust, cruel superstitious figure who cannot boast for a shred of evidence to back up his existence.
The Bible, for example, holds many elements of a discriminative and immoral nature. (Please correct me if there is a problem with my referencing, I may be slightly paraphrasing)
E.g. 1: Luke 14 :26-27

26, "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27, And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple".

What a horrible, selfish statement from god. That even if our family (parents) have created us and shown us a huge amount of love, we must reject them for a man in the sky who if exists, we cannot see, hear or feel; who conclusively allows the world to undergo such hardship; who allows for death on a great scale; who doesn't answer peoples prayers who need it the most etc. Yet it's okay because he is "god". If there is a god then he better start acting like one instead of demonstrating such an abuse of power.

E.g 2: Leviticus 20:13

"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

This shows immorality on a great scale. From this I deduce that if a man sleeps with another man I assume he will be sent to hell as otherwise this would be a contradiction of god's own words and he would be rewarding the man.
I understood it as god is the supposed creator with a plan for us all; who owns us and can do what he wants with us, in a literal sense. If this is true then why did he make homosexuality exist in the world? So that he had some people to pick on?
I don't understand that a homosexual man can be condemned to hell for sleeping with a man yet a priest can rape a little boy and still be sent straight to heaven.

Putting the hypothetical talk behind, there is not a single shred of evidence for the existence of a god. There's a good quote that "Religion is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance".
Evolution is a FACT, which disproves the Bible version of creation.
Myths such as Noah's ark are logically impossible.
Once people thought gods made it rain, threw down lightning, made the crops grow etc. We factually know that this is nonsense.
Many Christians believe that the Earth is 10,000 years old but we know this to be just not true.
Bible says that the Earth does not move and that it is the Sun which moves but yet again Science has PROVEN otherwise.
The list goes on...

but that is all I wanted to say for this round. I look forward to hearing your response


Alright let's get cracking. I would like to remind everyone that the Burden of Proof lies with the Pro here, as he has to prove how religion is the basis for immoral acts. Also, to the Pro. Religion does not translate into Christianity. If you are to make the claim that Religion as whole is not good, then please represent all of it, not just one part, even if it is the most prominent.
But enough of that. On to my opponent's arguments.
26, "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27, And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple".
HA! I can't believe this! Many years ago when I attended my dad's church in Washington D.C., he told me about this very passage and how so many people misunderstood. Trust me, once you get it, you won't think of it as bad. I wish the Bible went into a little more depth with this, but let me explain, because a lot of people don't like this passage. It's a metaphor. It's supposed to be a comparison. Your love of God and Jesus in comparison makes it look like you hate your family. Now, that is clearly not the case. God encourages you to love your neighbor and thy enemy, but again, it is simply a metaphor. He is not literally asking you to hate your family, don't worry. A lot of people misinterpret this. God is not demonstrating an abuse of power, he is just requesting our love, albeit in a very strange way.
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." I am glad you brought this to my attention because a lot of people are mad about this passage too. See, in that time of society in Jerusalem and a lot of other places in the world, homosexuality was often frowned upon. So you could say this is a warning to homosexuals at that time to be careful, because if people found out, they could be killed. It was a temporary passage of sorts. Now that we are in a more accepting age, we can shed that old belief and live as one. Sorry, but your conclusions about homosexuals going to hell are wrong. They are people like everyone else. And please do not bring up the thing with priests please. It's not Christianities doctrine for us to rape kids, that is just some psycho having his way. The entire religion can't be judged for that.
Now onto your talk about a single shred of evidence for God. Okay, a lot of your stuff is just terribly wrong and outdated, a fact I find sad that so many atheists assume these things without actually knowing about them.
For instance, Creation could very well have happened with Evolution. In fact, I have accepted both Evolution and Creation, as most of the Christian world has. Literally 1% of us still are hardcore creationists. It could be the events of the bible did happen just over a longer period of time, in the terms of evolution. A lot of the things that came to be in the universe that we know of match up with the bible. Let there be light. Big Bang. Separate waters from waters and divide the skies. The earth was molten and formless and then water came to be and an atmosphere came to be. That's just to name a few.
Yeah we get a lot of gripe for Noah, but floods happen, and major floods that swallow lands happen In fact, there are many legends about two people being saved from a giant flood in many cultures, such as Sumerian, Greek, and Hebrew. While it could have been exaggerated when they said flooded the world, to the people at the time, it very could have felt that way. Another thing about the logic. Yeah, logic is great, but one must understand. God is outside logic. He can change the rules of the game if he wants. Like if I made up a new version of tag, I could do something totally illogical. Didn't bother me.
Yeah, a lot of people still do think gods made it rain and stuff. Now we know that isn't true. How does this show that Religion shows discrimination and cruelty? Who cares if someone believes in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and they believe he sends the winds and rain?
Again, you are wrong in this Creationism view. I met an atheist who all he thought of Christians were just creationist freaks, when in reality, the mainstream Christian society has accepted Evolution and all other sciences as valid. I hope you do not become here. As such, I hope you Creationism isn't your main argument here, because it's totally irrelevant.
This last one is just wrong. Plain and simple. Please, give me the direct passage where it says the earth is still ad the sun revolves around it. This is a blatant lie. The Bible never said this. It was just a common belief at that time.
I hope you won't start crap like the other guy, firing off random irrelevant facts that don't even apply to this day and age, and focus just mainly on Christianity. Your job is to prove that all religions are "bad." And we cannot argue that Religion is superstitious. That's a known fact. Of course it is. That's like trying to argue Red is a color.
Debate Round No. 2


In your opening paragraph you say that I should represent all of religion, not just one part. Apart from the fact that a lot of teachings in different religious texts are remarkably similar I was merely highlighting one example of a religion where we see immoral teachings at work. My aim of my argument is not to pick out every flaw in every different religion, but more to highlight and flow over different areas related to the argument. Of course giving examples is important, I did that and then I moved on. My argument does not require an example from every religion as it will no doubt crossover. Christianity is a religion so therefore I deduced that Religion can be a basis for immorality. I would also like to mention that the title states "the teaching of religion" rather than "the acts which people may carry out because of religion". This means that I am only obliged to try to prove that the teaching of religion shows the immoral and unjust nature in which I talk about. Acts that people carry out is a slightly different topic but if you want me to speak on that then by all means I will.
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27, And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple".

You say that this is a metaphor and that God is "requesting our love" yet who decided this? This passage in itself is a very blunt message and cannot be taken any other way unless what?, someone came along, read this passage and then said "Oh what an awful thing for God to say, why don't I try to sugar coat it and claim that it's a cheerful metaphor instead. That way it'll help make the bible look perfect". I am just asking you who came up with the notion that it is a metaphor? It would of had to have been man who came up with it. In order to try and cover up the actual blunt, immoral message or whether they generally believed that it is a metaphor and that God is just requesting our love then I don't know but it would of had to have been man's take on it which has stuck and been passed through generations because it sounds sweeter.

"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."

You say that it was a temporary passage and that we are in a more accepting age now. Is the bible not the word of God? If so then surely that's god saying that they must be put to death. Unless God's word is temporary and that he too learned over time like the rest of us? There's no doubt that we are in a more acceptable age but that doesn't change the fact that this awful verse in written in the bible, the text of your religion. You can't say that "oh we don't follow that view anymore because we didn't know any better back then and we do now". You can't pick and choose the bits of the bible that you want to follow and forget about the rest. Surely it was meant to be all relevant or it wouldn't be in there. I am assuming you are a Christian as you attended church and your Dad told you about bible passages; and you most likely would have said otherwise if you weren't.

I know homosexuals are people like everyone else and I am thrilled you believe in such equality but if God says it's wrong and that they should be punished then why don't you feel the same way? Is that not turning your back on something that God says? I don't mean to attack you or doubt your sincerity here but why should Christians only follow the happy parts of the bible?

I know it's in no way to do with Christianity that some priests do those awful things and no I can't and I don't judge the whole religion for that but I can judge the teachings of the religion that would allow a priest to walk away Scot-free from such an act but can condemn homosexuals.

I don't believe that both creation and evolution could have occurred. If you mean it in the sense that God created the tiniest of micro-organisms and then evolution occurred normally then why wouldn't God just be in control of evolution? You believe in evolution because you have to, it's a scientific fact. However the bible doesn't say anything about evolution. Yes floods occur but how many different species of animals do you think there are in the world? To think that two of every species of animal fit in one ark is nonsense. This proves that religion is slowly receding due to scientific knowledge.

Your right the idea of a god making rain etc. doesn't show discrimination and cruelty in religion but it shows that religion has no leg to stand on when it comes to what we already know to be true. Which one could then deduce that if religion is wrong on all of that, then why am I to believe that such teachings as the ones I have mentioned should be listened to. And this is apart from the fact that they are just plain discriminative, immoral and cruel.

I do not think that all religious people are creationist freaks, that would be a totally unfair generalization. I am just saying that over the years religion has started to accept scientific truth that is opposed in their sacred texts so it may only be a matter of time before they realise that half of their text has been ridiculed. I say "may" as I have no idea if science will cause more religions to accept more truth or not over the years. No creationism isn't my main argument but I've showed that it's relevant in what I've been trying to get across.
And lastly, -Joshua 10:12-14

"It was then that Joshua proceeded to speak to Jehovah on the day of Jehovah"s abandoning the Amorites to the sons of Israel, and he went on to say before the eyes of Israel: 'Sun, be motionless over Gibeon, and, moon, over the low plain of Aijalon.' Accordingly the sun kept motionless, and the moon did stand still, until the nation could take vengeance on its enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun kept standing still in the middle of the heavens and did not hasten to set for about a whole day.


Thank you for clearing all that up. Now that that is done, let me move on toy your points, as you make a good few.
"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27, And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple". Jesus often used hyperbole's to exaggerate point with his many stories, for instance, the Good Samaritan, the Man and the Pearl, and the Mustard Tree. While I agree it may be a bit blunt, Jesus specifically states that he speaks in parables.
Mathew 13
10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied. "The knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." While a blunt statement that certain passage about hate is, it is also a test. Are you willing to put your faith above your family for God and Jesus? It's not that you are required to hate your family, but in comparison, it should seem so.
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." Yes the Bible is the word of God. Also, God is incomprehensible, unimaginable, outside the universe. The bible was written by man, trying to understand the word of God. Humans are flawed. There are going to be some mistakes.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." This is the passage under the most debate. I do not believe your passage was actually in the Bible, but there is much debate about the translation of the word Homosexual Offenders. It is derived from the Greek word "Arsenokoite." This base word is used to prohibit dangerous sexual behavior, so it could very well be that Homosexuality itself is not a sin, so long as they come to the lord Jesus Christ. So, I think the Bible doesn't even have a problem with it. I think that so many people just assume the Bible hates gay people, and they never actually look up the passages and study them. I do not just follow the happy parts of the Bible. For me, I have to follow all of it or none at all. Why? Because if I take away one single part, it would seem like a lie. I don't ant to base my life on a lie, and it could very well be a lie, but I have faith in the Bible, even if others don't. True Christians would listen to every part of the Bible, as every passage has something to teach, for better or for worse. It is a violent book of Peace, but we can use the past to build a better future for all. And do I think it is very Christian that a rapist got away Scot free? Of course not. That isn't true justice, and I'm sure Jesus won;t be happy with the guy.
Ah yes, the Evolution scheme. Here is a passage I think helps with this.
Psalm 90:4 "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." A Day to god could be billions of years. He is eternal. A billion years probably would be like a day to him. And I think God did set evolution in motion, because then we have a way to understand how we came to be, other than just be left in the dark and fighting even more about who's creation story is right. Who's to say God just let Evolution take hold on it's own. If he controlled it, he would be contradicting the very thing he made specifically for us. Free Will. We an choose what to do everyday. We can find out how we came here. In that point, I find comfort. True, Noah's ark does seem like a stretch, even for Bible standards, but it's GOD. He can do anything he wants! IF he wills it to flood, so be it! I once stated that God is the creator of the grand game, and he can change the rules if he wants to. He is outside logic, can do things scientifically impossible. Just because I think that it happened doesn't mean we totally reject science.
If Religion had no leg to stand on, it would be gone already. No, religion will always find a way to endure, no matter what scientific discoveries we may have, so sorry. You can look at these passages from a cynical point of view, but that's no fun is it? You have to delve deeper, find there true meaning. Everything has a meaning. I have a meaning, you have a meaning. The whole world has a meaning, even if it's nothing. If our purpose was no purpose, that's even better. More free will for us right? I am glad you are not like tat other guy i thinking about Christians as creationist freaks. And I get what you are trying to get across. As more discoveries are made, less people are believing in miracles. That really sucks, because the first step in accomplishing anything that can be classified as a miracle is to believe it can be done.
Yeah, you also misunderstood this last passage about the sun. The sun standing still was the miracle. The armies needed the light of day to defeat their enemies, so they prayed that the sun would stand still, giving them more light. That doesn't mean that the Bible say's the sun is still and the earth revolves around it. In fact, quite the opposite. The Bible is just stating that the miracle is that the sun stood still for a say, as good a miracle as any. So, I think you really misinterpreted.
I understand where your coming from. Really, I do. To me, choosing religion over what seems to be logic is a tough choice. Devoting your life to something is never easy, and I don't blame you for backing out, but I still don't see why these teachings are immoral and cruel. Sure, they can be blunt and violent sometimes, but the Bible is filled with parables and double meanings, you just have to keep looking. I have struck a fine balance between religion and science, and I find myself happy with it. If your happy with your beliefs, then I cannot try to sway you. One must come to religion on one's own. It's the only way it can work for somebody. Jesus never forced anybody to listen to him, people came because they accepted it, and I do not see how that is immoral. I await your argument.
Debate Round No. 3


I shall start off by saying that I think you are one of the most realistic Christians I have talked to and I admire your willingness to listen and keep an open mind to an opponents argument. It cannot be denied that there are some ignorant atheists out there who don't research what they preach but I in all honesty I really try to steer away from that. Whether I achieve it or not I am not certain but please know that my intentions are good.

You say that Jesus often used hyperbole's to exaggerate a point. What I want to know is who decided that is was hyperbole? Who decided which parts were hyperbolic and which parts were not hyperbolic and where was the line drawn? Is it that the harsh and cruel stories and bible passages are seen as hyperbolic whereas the light -hearted ones are taken as they are written? Likewise, who came up with the notion that when God/Jesus was posing a test when saying "The knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." From that text alone I find it very hard to conclude that an ultimatum is being posed.

Back to the homosexual aspect. You say it's justified because the bible was written by man, trying to understand the word of God. I am glad you brought this up as it is one of the main reasons why I reject the teachings of the bible. How can so many people follow a text which claims to explain everything about the origin of the life such as who created us and why we are here and how we came to be here yet it was written by men who knew SO much little about the universe than we do today. The knowledge difference is remarkably great. Why would you follow a superstitious belief when the actual true explanation is already there.

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
You say that this could mean homosexually isn't actually a sin in the eyes of the Lord. Whether it could or not, this keeps coming back to my point of who came up with such theories and why did they feel that it needed to be sugar coated, because it is so cruel sounding?

I am glad to know that you follow all parts of the bible instead of cherry picking the cheerful parts. I do not doubt your sincerity for your faith but for me I cannot commit my whole life to something that seems so unlikely whether it's because Science is disproving bible myths every century, the fact that thousands of gods have been invented over the centuries or the simple fact that the world contains so much misery. Surely God would not want this misery for us? Even with the whole notion of giving us free will I can't see how he can still be so strongly worshipped after events such as the holocaust or the world wars or the death of a helpless African child every few seconds. He did supposedly create a child to die for our sins so why can't he be held accountable for his own lack of intrusion and allowance of mass misery and hatred? And you do say that he can do anything he wants.

I cannot disprove that a God didn't hold accountable for evolution I can only say that it is a fact of occurrence. That much is down to belief so I will leave it alone.

I do not for one second hope that religion becomes extinct that is not my desire at all. I merely want to suggest to people to research it and seek the truth and realise that a lot of religious teachings are immoral and unjust, minus whatever theories or metaphors people invent for them and that when weighing up the arguments, the chance of a God existing is possible but very unlikely.

I would love to believe in miracles but I just can't without evidence. There is plenty references of miracles in the bible so why aren't they being carried out today? Bearing in mind that the definition of a miracle is that it is a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.

Lastly, I feel that I have showed that a lot of the teachings are in fact immoral and cruel if you take out some anonymous attempt of man trying to sugar coat them. I could say that a man who walks in to my house and kills my family is a metaphor for the lack of appreciation in which we show for our family sometimes. You see, it is quite easy to link anything to anything in such a way. You just need imagination and something to hide.


Again, a very excellent argument with very excellent points. And thank you for the compliment. People need to face facts with these coming days. Science has grow ever more prominent. It would be foolish to deny it. If one is to live peacefully, one needs to bypass their naturally violent nature and think on all scales, look at things from all points. I would say I am honored that you compliment me, but there is a saying. "No person should be honored for doing what is expected." I got that from Halo.
Now, you have again raised some interesting points. You want to know who decided that Jesus is using Hyperbole's instead of talking literal. You have trouble understanding why cruel and harsh passages are sugar coated and the nice ones are taken as they are written. Very excellent point, and allow me to explain, but this is more how I personally feel. It may not help you, but it may shed more light as to why I aspire to these passages. The Bible was written in such a savage time. Some people feel the world is just as savage as it was then. I disagree. Because back then, the world needed a jump-start to inspire people to create the world we have today, a world where we could be more civilized, to live with each other in peace. Then, Jesus came along, changed the world. Some of his passages are deemed immoral because of how they sound. But the true magic magic of the Bible is that anyone can interpret from it what they feel is right. I believe that God handed down his words in ways that people as individuals interpret from it. He is giving us yet another example of free will. You can take these double meanings with passages and take them literally, or you can broaden them into something better. As I said before, everything has a meaning, if if that meaning is nothing. Confusing yes, but let me try to explain further. Why this Bible works is that everyone can here something different within these pages. Some people don;t like want they see, some people do. But why is that? And why does that make the Bible such a good tool for doing good? No matter what the outcome, the Bible creates good. Now bare with me on this. You look at this passage as saying you hate your family, and you take it upon yourself to love your family evermore. I look at it as a test, so I still love my family very much, but I also contribute to God as well. It's confusing I know, I wish could better explain it, but to answer your question on who deems these hyperbole's? We do, or we do not. It's the choice you see. We can deem it literal or not. I deem it not, and ultimately, good comes out of it either way.
On the homosexuality note, I use the same system as before. I deem it not a sin, but choice. The main point is God wants us to choose. So many choices, sexuality being one. Perhaps Paul did not like gay people, perhaps he was just stating offenders. I can only hope it was the latter, as I choose to believe that.
I agree with your observation. Thousands of gods, millions even, have been invented over time. What makes this one so special? I believe in this God because, well, he actually fulfills what he sets out to do. Change the World. For better or for Worse, Real or not, God was God in every aspect. He changed how we think, how we live, how we see others. Even if you do not believe in him, he still influences you, like this very debate, influenced by Him. He is the singe most influential thing in our world, and Jesus runs a close second. And that, I believe, is a very worthy accomplishment, enough for him to be worshiped. I agree, sometimes, things take a turn for the worse when God is involved, like the Holocaust. Such misery as we have ever known. But I will answer your question as to why the majority of the world still remains religious, even in the face of unspeakable horror. Perhaps, God still does send help, just not in the way we expect. It's not through Fireballs, lightning being hurtled from the heavens above, it's through us. We can change, we can choose. Sometimes we make the wrong choice, but there will always be those ready to combat it. To set things right. In fact, the Holocaust, the World Wars, the Nuclear Bombings, are proof that we can change. We can choose to continue those vile ways, or we can choose to look to the past ad build a better future for generations to come. God, real or not, works through us, and I think in this sense, he really is real. He is inside all of our hearts, and we can make the choice that set things right. Out of misery, we can make happiness. Out of the thorns and thistles we shall become roses.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."
I agree, why aren't miracles being carried out today? But you don't have to look far. We live in a world of miracles, it just depends how you look at it! Modern medicines that save lives that back then couldn't be saved, Cars, Television, Internet. I find this very debate a miracle. Who would have thought thousands of years ago that the whole world would be connected with just a screen and a few codes? Don't you see? We are the miracle. We can do them, you just need the incentive. Sure, you may not consider them divine, but that doesn't make them any less miraculous.
And now your final word. Now, Jesus stated himself that he speaks in parables and hyperbole's. If the man himself told us that it is not to be taken literally, then that is okay with me. Let me explain that passage again, the one with the secrets of the heavens and all that. Yes it is easy to link metaphors to something like the Bible or really anything. But see here, this is what it means. here is the passage after it.
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Matt. 13:11-13
Jesus did not explain his parables to the crowd. He did not explain the spiritual meaning. At first, this may seem unfair, after all, how could they understand if they didn't know? But notice his important comment. Those who have had some will receive more, and those with none will receive none. To further explain, as that seems unfair, I will tell you what it means. Jesus had been ministering up to 3 years at that point, and people didn't fully believe in him yet. When they listened, they only heard the words, when they thought, the only thought about what he was saying and not what it meant. Jesus said this after he told the story of the Seed. In this story, a seed was thrown on the side of the road. Those who did not understand were spiritually deaf and were not accepted into heaven. Those who did were. So in Jesus's comment, we learn that whoever has some of Him inside them will be given more, and those who do not have Him will be given nothing.
So you see here? This is why Jesus speaks in Parables. It is a test for people to see if they are spiritually up to par, to see if they see the meaning of all things, and not just the words he was speaking. So you see? We have a choice to see or hear what is really being said.
And here I shall wait your argument. I hope you will take what I have said into account. It s, as I have said already so many times before, your choice to really "see" what I am trying to convey. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 4


Firstly, perhaps 5 rounds was a bit to much for this debate. Although it seems relevant now we may have been able to clear everything in 4 rounds but anyway we're on the homestretch now.

I understand where you are coming from when you explain that anyone can interpret the bible the way they want and you are right in saying that there is very little Christian extremists out there but for me that is where the problem here lies. Even if it is only a few percent of the Christian faith that are like this then they will most likely study such harsh sounding passages and take them completely in literal sense. If you think about there is approximately 2 billion Christians in the world. Even a few percent of that would be a huge figure of individuals who are not necessarily but likely taking such passages in a literal sense. This results in a large sum of people adopting wicked and immoral teachings (as that's what they are in a literal sense) and living their life under such teachings. Which I feel is contrary to your notion that the bible only creates good. If such an extremist is condemning homosexuals to hell then surely that is inputting an evil into the world, not goodness.

Likewise you say you look at the passage about family as a test. That is truly a great way to look at it and its great for you but who's to say that another person won't take it seriously? We are most likely talking about extremists here but not necessarily. I am not playing the extremist card in order to make cheap shots I am just using them as an example to bump up my argument that religious teachings can indeed show immorality. If a man rejects and hates his family completely and only loves God then is that not creating an immoral hatred towards his family and therefore inputting an immoral hatred in the world? All because a teaching from the bible, the word of whom he loves and is so greatly devoted to.

I understand where your coming from in why you believe in the Christian God because he fulfills what he sets out do and please don't take this as mockery, I am not being facetious in any way but I could say that I believe in the Easter bunny because he fulfills in what he sets out to do and gives us eggs. A good few years ago when I was a child I never saw my parents placing the eggs in the home so I could conclude that it was in fact the Easter bunny.

Likewise I understand what you are trying to get across in the "God works through us" notion. For me this seems like a very restricted notion. I find much more joy in believing that I was born as an individual with no almighty guidance. That way I know whenever I make a mistake it is solely my fault and whenever I grow as a person I know that it was all my doing, not a nudge from a divine figure. I just find that notion so much more fun, interesting and rewarding. However I completely understand your reason for such a belief.

It's interesting to point out the idea of modern miracles. Like I said, the definition of a miracle is a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine. Medicine, cars, television and Internet are all either Scientifically or Technologically spawned occurrences. However I do admire your appreciation for such things as I often take them for granted. If modern medicine is a miracle though and it's saved countless amount of lives then what about back then? What about all the millions of people who have died without it, where was their miracle? I understand what you mean by we are the miracle, I just wouldn't term it as the word "miracle".

This is all I wanted to say, I found your parable and hyperbole explanation interesting and insightful and didn't feel the need to rebuke.
You have very intriguing and thought out explanations. It has been a pleasure debating with you and I wish the best of luck.

Note: I don't pray but I tell you now I'll pray for the poor voters who have to read all of this!


Likewise, a very nice debate! You do your brethren proud as you are very well thought out and very well mannered! It's makes me happy that not all religious debates have to be all angry and such. A well thought out critique is just what the doctor ordered. Now then, onto the final argument.
True, I agree. Many take Bible passages in the literal sense, but most of them at least have the sense to know what is right from wrong. I've never met a person who has read that passage and actually hated their family because God said to do it. Perhaps there is hope for the Human race after all. But, with your points, I guess I cannot disagree. If one person were to go to the extremes, the Bible could very well be a base for immorality. Heck, it's happened before, with the Crusades and such. There will always be people who look at passages literally. Unless they do something that actually harms others or spawns evil, we can;t help it. We just have to try and help them understand what they are reading and why it is, not just the words on the page. Not all people use the Bible in such high regards, I agree, but it can be helped. After all, what is better? To be born good, or to overcome the evil inside yourself to become even better than good?
And more good points with the Easter Bunny. It came to a great shock to me when I found out, (Spoilers) Santa wasn't real. But, something tells me, and maybe it is because so much is riding on the hope that it's right, that there is a God, and I don't mind if someone else doesn't believe it. Heck, I applaud them, at least whoever takes a look at it rationally and chooses to not follow religion simply because that isn't what they believed, and nothing else.
And now, onto your next point. You find that having no purpose is fun and exciting. I agree, but as I said before, everything has a meaning, if if the meaning is nothing. While some might find believing in nothing is kind of depressing, I disagree with that. In fact, I would think it total bliss. So what would be your meaning to you? Absolutely nothing! And that's fantastic! You have a clean slate! You have your whole life ahead of you, and you can be whatever you want! Have fun! Unfortunately, I cannot share the same experience. I do think I have a purpose, and I think it will be just as rewarding as no meaning would be, even if it was all based on superstitious nonsense. However, I hold faith in my religion, and I will treat it with reverence. That doesn't not mean I still cannot live my life however. Contrary to popular belief, Religion does not control every aspect of what I do. I will have just as much fun as anyone can in this life. After all, YOLO. (I apologize for bringing that in here.)
And onto your point with miracles. You have yet another fair point to add! Where were the people's miracles back then? I think it's a miracle that mankind survived through those days. True, many suffered and died from things beyond their control, and only miracles could save them, and none came. While I do think God helps out through us, he never directly interferes with the natural stages of life. People die, and as much as it probably pains Him, he will not change it. Way back in the book of Exodus, God had already made is announcement to the world that He was there and ready to play. He needs not to do so again. We already know he is present, even if he isn't real to some. He is here all the same. If God came down and held our hand like we were baby infants, Life would have no meaning. Even the meaning of nothing would absolutely have no meaning. Struggle, perseverance, endurance, that's how you reap the sweet rewards. Through hard work and toil. Look forward to the miracles that we can accomplish that lie ahead. The people of the past understood that, and now it falls to us to do the same. To work towards a better future than we could ever dream of.
And that is it. If you have read this far, congratulations are in order. I would buy you a drink, but they don't normally serve the Bud Light to a Junior in high school. I hope this read was intriguing ad thought provoking, whatever side you were on and whatever side you are on now. I will make no effort to try to sway the audience to my side as I think I have made my point clear enough. May this be a fine example on how religious debates should be. Constructive, cooperative, respectful, and friendly. Hopefully, we will see more of these in the future. Good day everyone.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by O.Z 5 years ago
And just to explain a few things, God was never meant to oppress. Have you read the Bible? He wants nothing but the best for us. The Bible is a violent book of peace. He wouldn't teach these things if they were easy to follow. Everybody sins. Nobody is perfect. For major sins, like killing, give you a one way ticket to hell. Jesus was sent to give us a chance. That doesn't mean a killer can get away with it as long as he believes in Jesus. Any kind of murder is wrong. But if it was accidental, or in warfare, or completly out of your control, you are forgiven if you are truly sorry for it. Miracles, as I have explained before, are in every day things, like modern medicine, police doing their best to keep the streets clean, and soldiers doing their part to keep our countries safe. You just have to broaden your mind about it, look into what it all means. And I have never come into a situation where I truly needed divine miracle to save e. Granted, I have had some tough times, but I could handle it, with a little determination. But I believe in God anyway.
Yes, there is no prrof of God. There is no proof against him either.
Yes, there is no empiracal means of prooving he exists, but there isn't any methods of disprooving him either.
Yes, the Bible uses circular reasoning, but even if God doesn't exist, that doesn't mean the Bible has nothing to teach. We could debate about this if you would like.
But, Im just defending my own beliefs. Don't mind me, you have every right to believe what you believe, and I applaude you for taking such a rational take on life. Rationality is the greatest weapon we have had, and shall ever have.
Posted by O.Z 5 years ago
And that is alright. You have every right to believe that, in fact I think it makes sense for you to believe that. Your beliefs, unless they are very, very, VERY, insane, should not hold you accountable as a person. Be as it may, my belief in God doesn't make me afraid of the universe. rather, he gives me strength. It's true, I have no idea what's really out there or how we got here. But I am not afraid. I am excited to find out. Even if all of my beliefs turn out to be wrong and my whole moral understanding are based on the gibberish of a Palestenian madman with a beard and are straight up lies, that's alright. At least we will know, and we no longer have to be afraid.
Posted by Chillwitm888 5 years ago
God, in my opinion, though very popular, is just a story made up to help those cope with understanding and acceptance. A means in making those who are afraid of dying, happy, or for those who are scared and need to feel like someone is watching over them. The universe is such a complex space which we have little understanding of, it is just easier to make up rumours about someone who created it. When we don't have answers, we want answers. At the time the easiest answer was to say someone controls everything, someone who is watching over us

He also may have been made up for the simple purpose of controlling society as it began to build, an easier way to ensure people were in line. If you were ignorant and were threatened with being sent so a torturous place where you suffered for the rest of eternity, wouldn't you want to do the right thing to ensure this didn't happen to you? Surely, the majority who didn't want that cursed upon their death would follow rules and they would be able to control society without many hassles. A_w ;)
Even more contradictingis the bible
the bible is filled with many contradictions. For example, if you sin you will go to hell, but god will forgive you for your sins and thus the reason Jesus died. This is what makes the bible hard to believe, all the extraordinary events that take place that just don't happen every day. We best understand from experience, and when we are not shown this, we cannot believe it. Others, however, have a moment where they feel a need for protection or comfort and see something odd, this makes them believe.

You cannot judge someone on their faith or on their opinion on faith, it is insensitive and unnecessary as a means of action against the person or belief. Thus discrimination
There is no empirical proof for the existence of God.
There is no empirical means of proving that God doesn't exist.
Citing the bible as evidence for the existence of God is circular reasoning.
Posted by CynicalDiogenes 5 years ago
Points of Information:
Georges LeMaitre , the physicist who proposed the Big Bang theory was a catholic priest, and remained a catholic priest even after proposing his theory.
Gregor Mendel, the father of modern Genetics, was also a catholic monk.There are many members of the christian clergy who actively contribute to science.The current Pope has a masters degree in Chemistry.
There are over 300,000 sects within Christianity. Only a small groups of fundamentalists believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, and believe that the universe is 10,000 years old.

Humans also have a heart to feel,not only a mind to think.Religion is the art of taming the heart, something that science cannot do.
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