The Instigator
Evan_Hermes
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Thoht
Con (against)
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There Are Only 2 Genders

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/17/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,035 times Debate No: 118958
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

Evan_Hermes

Pro

I believe there are only two genders, Because biologically, You are born male or female. Just because you feel like the opposite gender, Doesn't change anything. You can't change your chromosomes and cells.
Thoht

Con

Happy to think with you today.

There are a few things in this discussion that are poorly addressed. Largely, This is a language issue, Not a failure to understand science on the part of either side. Allow me to clarify a bit.

1. Sex versus Gender

Webster's definition of Sex is:

"Either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures. "

Webster's definition of Gender is this:

"A subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, Pronoun, Adjective, Or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, Social rank, Manner of existence, Or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms. "

As such, When it comes to "sex" this is our typical biological definition of male and female.

When it comes to "gender" this is used by some fraction of society as a synonym for Sex. It is used by another fraction of society as "the set of norms that one belonging to this group conforms to. " As such, Gender is a "social construct. "

Let's put it this way. Boys are supposed to like trucks, Action figures, The color blue, Like sports, Not wear skirts, Et cetera. The term "boy" here is being used as a gender. Being "male" can be a contributing factor to this, But not necessary. I. E. Some boys do not like the color blue. Some boys don't like trucks. Does this stop them from being boys? Not necessarily. If most of the rest of the social construct applies to that person, They can be said to be a 'boy. '

So to one fraction of society, All males are boys, And all boys are males. To one fraction of society, The question of sex 'male' or 'female' is separate from the question of gender. Males or females can fall into the social construct of 'boy' or the social construct of 'girl. '

For example, If a male (a human with the primary sex characteristic of a penis) liked to wear dresses and skirts, Wear makeup, Had a slim figure, Wore high heels, Liked colors associated with femininity, Flirts or has sexual relationships with males, Et cetera, This fits more into the 'girl' category for most people.

People who currently think sex=gender would say this is a Male boy who has feminine traits. People who currently view sex and gender as two distinct questions would say this is a Male who is a girl.

The question of gender is a bit different, From my view, Than the question of trans people, Or people who DO want to change their sex. When people want to change their sex, They typically will attempt at some point to have a surgery done that either gives them a penis or a vagina and uses their old primary sex characteristics, And other parts of their body, To form their new primary sex characteristics.

It is important to note that when we say Sex = female or male we as people tend to associate this with primary and secondary sex characteristics, But Biology would go a step further and talk about chromosomes. This is something that could potentially be changed in the future, But we aren't there yet.

Either way, We don't typically call someone born infertile or impotent as "not a male" or "not a female" sex-wise. We typically still associate that with either their primary/secondary sex characteristics or their chromosomes.

I think it's fair to say that the majority of society judges sex by primary/secondary sex characteristics rather than chromosomes, And that this is a fair way of judging it. The ability to reproduce is almost never a factor in this label.

2. Multiple Genders

Whether or not there are multiple genders is more or less a question of if you are a strict sex=gender person, Or if you accept that gender is a social construct of median qualities that a person may exhibit.

I submit that there is no reason to have two separate words for the same definition. I believe there are some societies that say "Look at those males play" rather than "look at those boys play" for the same reason.

Boy and girl, Regardless of which type of view you currently have, Are stereotypes that don't fit all.

If there is someone who doesn't like blue or pink, But likes red, Doesn't like action figures or dolls, Doesn't like to wear skirts or pants, Et cetera. Someone who doesn't check many boxes in either the 'boy' or 'girl' categories, Then the question is is it fair to say that person is a girl or boy? Is it fair to judge simply on sex?

I submit that if I present to you the most feminine male in the world, That person is not a 'boy. '

I'll conclude this section by presenting a third and fourth gender. I should say that you can critique the validity of some pages that have hundreds of listed genders if you'd like. I'm not defending hundreds of genders, Because I find some of them to be silly, But these are all people who create these 'genders' in an attempt to tell people how they view the world, Or how the world effects them. We should take them seriously.

2a. Agender

These are people who don't associate strongly with either 'boy' or 'girl. ' These people, When they refer to themselves as 'agender' aren't saying they aren't males or females. They just would like you to not refer to them as boy or girl. They would like to not be subjected to those stereotypes, And be seen as the persons that they are.

2b. Genderfluid

These are people who associate with 'boy' stereotypes some days, And 'girl' stereotypes other days. I believe there are different words for those who switch between even more genders, But may be mistaken. If you have a particularly androgynous build, You may be able to wear muscle shirts some days, And skirts other days and be able to pull off the stereotypes of both.

3. Biological Sex

Technically, Even with biological sex there are more than two options. People born with more than one X chromosome or extra Y chromosomes. (sources can be provided if this is disputed) Basing sex on chromosomes alone would be to suggest that there are far more than two sexes, Much less two genders.

Intersex people, Those born with multiple primary sex characteristics, Do not fit into the typical male/female sex definitions at all. We usually consider intersex a third sex. Trying to fit these people into either 'boy' or 'girl' based on sex is either silly or stupid. I believe typically they go with whichever primary sex characteristic is potent/fertile, But possibly not.

To conclude,

Language is a silly thing that changes all the time. We tend to have multiple definitions for the same word, Much less different words. I would submit that, While there are males who fall into the boy or man gender extremely well, And you may find much of society is this way, You will find males who don't care about gender distinctions. You will find males who check all the boxes of 'girl' except for the 'sex = female' box. To say 'sex' and 'gender' should have the same definition, Or that 'female' is a requirement to be a 'girl' is an arbitrary line you have drawn. You can do so, But these people are suggesting that that definition fits poorly with them. You do yourself no harm to accept that they have a differing definition of 'gender' and that according to their definition there are multiple genders, And 'sex' is not a fundamental requirement for any of those boxes. I submit that these people, Although their definitions of language differ from yours, Are attempting to tell you something important about how reality is to them, And they should be respected. If someone doesn't wish to be called a feminine male boy, But would like to be called a male girl, Or have operations done to be a female girl, Or doesn't want the operation but just wants to live life as a girl, There is no harm done to others because of this. If I want you to call me Dick instead of Richard, You will. You won't say "but that's not your real name. "

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 1
Evan_Hermes

Pro

Ok, I know you took a lot of the with the definitions and language, But I am going to explain it simply. I think you can agree biologically there are 2 sexes. The problem is relying on dictionaries to define gender. Every single definition is different. Google's dictionary states 'the state of being male or female'. We need to rely on biology instead of dictionaries.

You said that sex in different from gender, Which isn't entirely true. Gender is determined by sex (i. E. XX = female, XY = male). We aren't talking about what boys and girls are supposed to like. Even though generally boys don't like 'girly' things, And girls don't like 'boyish' things, It isn't universal. But, Just because they don't like those things, Or they don't 'feel' like their gender, Doesn't change anything. I think most people and I can agree that people can like whatever they like. They can do their hair however they like. They can think however they like. But, Those factors are irrelevant when talking about biology.

Regarding intersex people, They aren't a third gender. They have a serious physical disorder. To explain my point, I will explain this. In school, We learn people have 10 fingers, Which is just basic biology. If someone doesn't have ten fingers, Then they aren't normal, Just like people who are intersex. They aren't normal, So we can't. Deem it a 'third gender'. If we deemed intersex a third gender, By that logic, People born with 3 arms are perfectly normal. People born with 11 fingers are perfectly normal. As you know, This just isn't true.

To conclude, You aren't a boy based on what things you like. You aren't a boy based on what hairstyle you have. You are a boy based on you chromosomes and cells. You can't simply change it however you want. For me, I don't care if you get operations done. I start to care when you force me to call you by your preferred pronouns. You can't change pronouns like you can change your name, Because what pronouns you have are based on your sex. Your name isn't based on anything, So therefore changing your name is perfectly fine, But not your pronouns.
Thoht

Con

So you refuse to acknowledge my distinctions and debate the points I've presented. Fair enough. The audience will be the judge of how fair we are to each other.

You are a sex=gender person. Please tell me why we have two names for the exact same thing. As I said, There are multiple definitions to every word. Gender, No matter which dictionary you look at, Will acknowledge that some people think it is purely based on sex usually as a 2nd definition. All dictionaries I've looked at it present it as a 'set of characteristics typically related to sex x or sex y. ' Language evolves over time, And there's no particular reason for me, Or many people, To accept that sex is a requirement for gender. It makes the distinction between sex and gender irrelevant, Therefore the two words should not exist, And we should simply use sex. Gender is now becoming, For the fraction of society who doesn't purely fit into the 'male boy' or 'female girl' categories, A more open question. None of them are disputing their sex outside of trans people. Trans people can make the claim that primary sex characteristics supersede chromosomes if they wish. Sex is largely chromosome related in addition to primary sex characteristics. If you are XX but have a penis, This is an open question on biological grounds, Particularly if science advances to make XX potent penises possible (probably only allowing female offspring), Or XY functional wombs. Alternatively, If chromosomes may be changed in the future.

I should point out that there are more than just female or male if we're also accepting fungi, Birds, Et cetera into this discussion. I am making the assumption that we're speaking only of humans.

In your way of viewing the world, You have to say someone is a 'feminine male boy' instead of just a 'male girl. ' It requires a mild amount of nuance to see the difference.

You have a strange view of intersex people. Not all of them have any kind of 'disorder' of any sort. One set of primary sex characteristics may be dysfunctional, But that is hardly a serious disorder. If someone had a 3rd arm that was functional then, In my opinion, That person is not a victim of a 'disorder' but literally has a hand up on the rest of us. I'd love another set of functional arms. Same with 11 fingers. This isn't a 'disorder' unless your definition of 'disorder' is that 'doesn't fit my norm. ' It's a silly way to view reality. Things are only disorders if they impair the person's ability to function. The persons themselves are typically perfectly normal, Only their bodies are disordered, Or potentially superior, To ours.

To conclude,

You are a male based on your chromosomes and sex characteristics. Intersex people DO exist and fitting them to one gender or another is an extremely questionable practice. The term "boy" is useless unless we consider characteristics outside of sex. If we're requiring that they be 'male' there is no point to calling people 'boys' instead of just 'males. ' It would simplify our way of speaking. There is no justification for the terms boy and girl outside of thinking of characteristics outside of chromosomes and primary/secondary sex characteristics.

To my opponent, They largely do not 'force' anyone to use their pronouns. Typically you will never know the difference. I promise you've referred to plenty of males with feminine pronouns before. I can guarantee you've called females by masculine pronouns before. It is silly that you accept changing your language when it comes to when people prefer to be called different nouns but not pronouns. It requires a world of more effort if you learn that someone was born male but dresses and 'passes' as female to change your pronouns to address that person by male pronouns than it does to address a passing person by the pronouns they prefer. It takes a modicum of effort for you to stop calling Richard Richard, But to address him as Dick. It takes a modicum of effort to refer to refer to people with pronouns that are not tied to gender rather than gender specific ones. In general, It is a matter of respect to the individual you are associating with. If you have no respect for those individuals, Then you won't spare the small amount of effort it takes to change the way you speak. That's okay. They won't associate with you, You won't associate with them. Your denial of their definition of 'gender' does not mean their definition of 'gender' is not valid, And it especially does not mean that their definition of gender does not exist. These people exceedingly rarely make a big deal of you using the wrong pronoun if you're making a genuine effort to not do so, Just as Dick rarely makes a big deal about you calling him Richard by mistake.

If this debate is about my opponent's personal preference of the definition of 'gender' then he wins.

I submit that the first definition of 'gender' is open to being interpreted to not have a limit of two genders, Much less that sex is a requirement to be one of two specific genders. Language changes over time. If you don't agree that's fine but that doesn't change that many people in society have agreed on this. If it is a question of the existence of multiple genders, There is no question. They exist. Your definition simply may not agree with that. To put it in your language, We see "feminine male boys" as a different stereotype compared to "masculine male boys" and we acknowledge that some males exist that don't strongly fit in with the stereotypes associated with 'boy. ' These are differences you acknowledge as well, We're just disagreeing on words to use to describe them. It's nothing more serious than that.

If you are also a person who believes that sex = gender, The third 'sex' of intersex should be enough to qualify as greater than two sexes for this debate. Regardless of what my opponent mistakenly claims, Intersex people exist and do not fall purely into either male or female sexes. This is not a disorder by the common definition. If I were to present you a person with a fully functional penis and vagina, This would not be one of the two sexes you agree exist. This would be a third. I submit this is not impossible and can exist. Almost certainly, It will in the future.

There is no grounds for Pro to disagree with more than 2 genders, The topic of this debate, Even biologically or scientifically. There are more than 2 combinations of chromosomes. There are more than 2 possibilities of primary sex characteristics. This cannot be denied outside of extreme mental gymnastics. Why try so hard to deny reality? Changing pronouns occasionally is far easier than refusing to acknowledge a third sex, Or endlessly debate about the definition of 'gender. ' You have to learn people's preferred nouns all the time. You don't view this as a difficult thing to do. Why is the additional RARE step of changing pronouns, When people's outwards appearance don't match their pronouns, So hard that we have to refuse to do so, When the refusal is only 1. Disrespectful and 2. Requires much more effort more often?

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 2
Evan_Hermes

Pro

First off, I am not a sex=gender person. Like I said before, I am a sex determines gender person. They aren't the same word, But they are largely related. Sex is determined by your chromosomes, And gender is the state of being male or female. And by the way, To answer your question about why we have 2 words for the same thing, We don't. Like I explained, They are different. I find that to be a ridiculous question, Because there are so many other different words that mean the same thing (. I. E. Same/identical).

Language doesn't have much to do with this argument. I'm going to assume you know that biologically, There are 2 sexes. That is why you are clinging on to language so much. The only language that is really important here are the definitions of sex and gender, Which I thought we already went over. This debate isn't about if a man feels feminine, Or is a girl feels masculine, It is about biology.

The term 'male girl' makes absolutely no sense. It just contradicts itself, So 'feminine boy' makes more sense, Because feminine is a way to describe someone/thing, And isn't a sex.

Regarding intersex, It is definitionally a disorder. A disorder doesn't mean that they have a disadvantage, It means a disruption of normal physical or mental functions; a disease or abnormal condition. I think you can agree that an intersex person meets that description. By the way, I never said intersex people don't exist, And I never said they have to fit into a certain category, Even though 99% of intersex people have defining traits that make them a male or a female, Like a micro penis or enlarged clitoris.

They do actually try to force you to use their pronouns. I got screamed at once for saying i'm not going to call someone by their preferred pronouns. Your argument on names vs. Pronouns is ridiculous. Pronouns are directly tied to someone's gender, And names aren't. You can change your name, But not your gender. Other people might call people by their preferred pronouns, But not me. That is just my belief.

I'm not arguing that language doesn't change. It's pretty obvious that it does. Language does not, In fact, Change basic biology.

To your point on multiple genders, I know they exist. But only in language. In biology, The thought of more than 2 genders is complete bullcrap. You have also talked a lot about the behavior of people, But that has absolutely no impact on gender. If you act like a by, It doesn't make you one. If you feel like a girl, That doesn't make you one.

The reality is that there are 2 genders. There are 2 *normal* combinations of chromosomes. Everyone else, Whether it be XXY, XXYY, XXX, Or whatever else, Isn't normal. Like I said before, It's normal to have 10 fingers. Obviously, There are people born with 11 fingers, But that makes them abnormal. If there are more than 2 genders, What is the purpose of the 3rd? Or 4th?

I don't call people by their preferred pronouns because I don't like them, It is because it's my belief, And also biology's belief, That they are not the sex to which they claim to be. Even if it is harder, I do it because I believe in it. That is fine if you disagree.
Thoht

Con

You've made no new arguments so I'll just respond to a few of your statements.

I have no idea what the difference is between a sex=gender person and a sex determines gender person. These are equal statements. If you agree gender is determined by anything else then multiple genders follow immediately.

Again, This is just semantics at this point. Language has everything to do with this argument and you're pretending it isn't so. I'd be interested to hear a statement from a biology phd that said intersex always equates to male or female, Because everything I've read states otherwise. (https://www. Britannica. Com/science/intersex) Parents do tend to choose for their children and butcher their bodies to conform to what a doctor may recommend, But that doesn't make it moral to do so.

Just because you have no sympathy or empathy for people who don't associate with gender norms doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're pretending that just because they don't exist to you that they don't exist. It's silly. Similar arguments could be drawn for calling blacks 3/5ths of people during slavery eras. Equally arbitrary.

Your anecdote about 'one time this happened to me' doesn't counter my claim that the event is rare at all. Rare doesn't mean it never happens. It means it is rare. I went further and said they even more so rarely yell at you if you are at least showing a modicum of effort at trying. If you don't want to say pronouns that they want, Don't. Just address them by name. It isn't difficult. Again, Anyone would be rude to you if they said their name was John and you said "No. You're Jennifer. "

To conclude,

My opponent has taken my claim that the whole issue is a language game and said "no, Biology. " Even as he argues that intersex people don't exist, And that they all can be put under the 'female' or 'male' umbrella. A patently false statement from a biological perspective. Language has evolved once again. A significant portion of the population agrees that sex is a biological definition and gender identity is a social construct of norms and how we act. (as far as I can tell, There are no hard stats on this yet) Contrary to my opponent's stubbornness, This is how language has evolved regardless of his agreement upon it.

You aren't required to agree. You aren't required to associate with these people on friendly terms, But in the end all you're doing is looking like a dick to people who otherwise may be your friends, Purchase your products, Et cetera. You have nothing to gain from not at least addressing them by the noun they choose. Just be glad you're part of the norm. Remember, Society evolves with or without you. Gays are now accepted as normal instead of being hunted regardless of how you feel about the matter. This will be no different.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
"Similar arguments could be drawn for calling blacks 3/5ths of people during slavery eras. Equally arbitrary. "

If you read this closely you'll see I'm comparing this to calling blacks 3/5ths of an actual person, Not owning them.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
Transgenderism should probably be called transexism. Trans people are the only ones who necessarily want to change their sex. The others are only trying to change their gender and they're using a different definition than you are. They recognize that you are using the old definition of gender and will usually just roll their eyes and walk away when you say something so stupid as 'they're trying to change their biology but they can't, Heh. '

Others might actually have a conversation with you to show you how you're being disrespectful. Some will put emotions into it. They should hardly be blamed for this.

I didn't say you are morally as bad as a slave owner. I compared your lack of sympathy. Refusing to call someone what they want to be addressed as and literally owning them as a slave is not the same on moral grounds. Refusing to acknowledge them as a fellow human and give them a basic level of respect is the same for both. I understand nuance is difficult for you, And that your first instinct is to not be charitable to your opponents. I've said it twice now so the readers can be sure the moral line is not the line I'm drawing. It is really your choice whether or not to think I'm lying or not. My moral code puts lying as immoral far above almost everyone in the world. I remember clearly every single lie I've ever told and they play back in my head over and over, Each one bringing me shame. I've told only a handful of lies in the past decade when they were absolutely necessary for several reasons and they still bring me shame.

I promise I don't care about your reputation enough to bother myself by lying to bring your reputation down. I'm attempting to draw a stark line so you can see how others feel about it.

May your thoughts be clear,

-Thoht
Posted by Evan_Hermes 3 years ago
Evan_Hermes
They do claim to be a different sex. That is the definition of transgender.

And, If it isn't as bad as slave owners, Why compare me to them? I think you were just trying to make be look bad.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
They don't claim to be a different sex.

It's a lack of sympathy that I'm pointing out. I'm not saying it's as bad as slaveowners. It is however, A lack of sympathy.
Posted by Evan_Hermes 3 years ago
Evan_Hermes
I wish I had another round to respond. I'll just say it was unfair of you to compare my behavior to that of a slaveowners. Don't you think? I never said I was against how people want to feel, I never said I was against what people want to look like. All I said was they are not the sex to which they claim to be.
Posted by tbsa25 3 years ago
tbsa25
Ur so wet and my nan is faster than u xd
Posted by tbsa25 3 years ago
tbsa25
Idc about ur debate, I would appreciate if you gave me an Arabic windows 10 desktop.
Posted by McSloth 3 years ago
McSloth
So many issues and topics yet people always come back to transgender people. Why is this so interesting to you people? At the end of the day does it really affect you if people choose to be a different gender? I just don't understand the outrage.
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