The Instigator
Our_Boat_is_Right
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
McSloth
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

There are ONLY TWO Genders: Change my Mind

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Our_Boat_is_Right
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/12/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 10,561 times Debate No: 118541
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (48)
Votes (2)

 

Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

I believe there are only two genders/sex- biological man and women

Feel free to try and change my mind
McSloth

Con

Before delving into the issue at hand, We need to cover the problem with your definition of gender and of sex. They are two very separate things, And you cannot lump them together. While you are correct when you come to sex, Biologically there are only two sexes, Men and women respectively. You are quite wrong when it comes to the issue of gender. Gender is a social construct, Depending on someone's culture, Gender can mean very different things. Gender consist of what one particular culture deems appropriate in terms of roles, Behaviors, Activities, And attributes for men and women. I suggest you read Judith Lorber"s essay on the social construction of gender. Thus, As a society or culture changes and different ideas are introduced, And norms change, The definition of gender is also expected to change as well. So, With gender being specific to each culture, And there being numerous cultures on Earth, There cannot be one definition for gender.
Debate Round No. 1
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

According to science, Not wikipedia definitions, Gender and sex mean the same thing. Nothing can change your gender or sex. If you are a boy that pretends to be a girl, You are still a boy. Facts don't care about your feelings, I'm sorry.
McSloth

Con

Well according to sociologists, Gender and sex are two very different things, And to say they are the same is just plain inaccurate. This is a common misconception people have when it comes to gender and sex. Pick up a sociology text book or read any number of essays done by a sociologist and you will see that you must separate your ideas of gender and sex. Gender has nothing to do with biology, Because our ideas of what constitutes gender are nothing more than social constructions based on cultural variables, Which can change with time (as they have in the past). This debate has boiled down to an issue of definitions, And our lack of agreement when it comes to sex and gender. If you define sex/gender has the same thing, Then yes there would only be two forms, Man and woman. However, If you separate the two ideas, You cannot say there are only men and women, Because gender is culture specific. Gender is simply what a culture assigns to a specific sex, If you"re biologically a man, You need to act and do things this way. If you"re biologically a woman you need to act and do things this specific way. Let"s take the gender of a woman for example, If you go to different cultures around the world you will find many definitions for what constitutes a "proper woman", I think we can both agree on this notion at least, But if you go to different culture, You will find a completely different definition for what constitutes a "proper woman". In most western cultures, A woman is seen as an equal to a man, But head over to some eastern cultures, The woman plays a for more subservient role in the culture. As you can see these are two very different definitions of gender when it comes to women. Until we can agree on definitions, We will just be debating past each other, And this whole thing will simply be a waste of time.
Debate Round No. 2
Our_Boat_is_Right

Pro

So I see a big disconnect in what you and so many other people say.

You say that gender and sex are different. What you are saying is that gender refers to social roles and constructs, So boys can pretend to be girls, And girls can pretend to be boys. But. . . Those are both sexes, So in gender you can pretend to be a sex? There is a big disconnect in this.

Also, Facts are facts. You can pretend to be another sex, But that doesn't mean you are.

What if I identify as 60? Is there something wrong with that? Should there be an alternate term for "age" to fit in with what one person is pretending to be?
McSloth

Con

Well I would not say they are pretending to be anything, Pretending means to behave or do something as if something is true when you know that it is not, Especially in order to deceive people. Transponder people don"t claim to be another gender to deceive people. They truly believe in what they're doing and for the most part don"t care what other people think or say, So there"s no pretending to be another gender in that respect. Try talking to a transgender person and attempt to convince them to stop being transgender and see how well that goes. I don"t understand why so many people have this notion that transgender people are attempting to trick people and society at large, They are just people attempting to live in accordance with what they believe. None the less, To get back to the issue at hand, I propose a thought experiment, This might help you understand the need to differentiate between gender and sex. What makes a man a man? And I"m not talking about biological indicators here, In other words, How does a man know how to act like a proper man? Biology sadly gives us nothing in terms of ideas on proper womanhood and manhood, So that leaves culture and education. We learn how to be members of our sex through what we see and experience. So, If I see and experience different things then what you see and experience for example, Then I might come to believe that being a man and woman is something very different from your own ideas on gender, Correct? Say I flip the gender stereotypes and build a society where women are taught to be masculine and the men are taught to be feminine, Tell me, What would man"s gender be in such a society? He is biologically a man, But to us he acts like a woman no? Would we call him a man or woman? Gender is a complex issue and cannot be so easily explained by saying "gender and sex are the same, Therefore you are either a man or a woman". Two people can have very different ideas for what gender is based on their culture and what they were exposed to. And when transgender people say "I"m a girl" or "I"m a guy" what they really mean is that they have chosen to take on the attributes or behavior of a specific gender. They are not claiming to be another sex in other words, Just a different gender. I think the transgender community has definitely failed to make that clear and is a major issue I have and something I would encourage them to change. None the less, You are correct when you say there are only two sexes, And yes you can say you"re one sex but that doesn"t mean you are. But that gets into the whole topic of medical sex changes, But that is a completely different issue then the one at hand. And to answer your rhetorical question about age, Yes there would be something wrong with that because unlike the issue of gender, Age is a measurement of time and is easily quantifiable using numbers in the form of years. Gender is not as easily explained, As this debate has surely proven its complexity, And how that by saying that sex and gender are the same thing is simply inaccurate.
Debate Round No. 3
48 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Our_Boat_is_Right 3 weeks ago
Our_Boat_is_Right
you are your biological sex. Nothing can change that. If you are trasgender, Or think your a different gender, You are wrong. You are what you actually are. Facts don't care about your feelings. I don't care about "misgendering" someone. WTF
Posted by Thoht 3 weeks ago
Thoht
If Richard wishes to be called Dick, Is it respectful or rude to say "No you're Richard. Dick isn't your REAL name. "

If someone prefers ALL the things girls prefer, Even adopting looks et cetera, Then referring to him as a girl is by far easier and more respectful than looking at what looks, Smells, Feels, Et cetera like a woman and saying "Nah, I'm going to call you John, Not Jennifer. That's not your REAL name. "

I mean OK buddy, But it makes you look like a fool just as #1 does, When it is in fact easier to refer to her by female pronouns than it is male ones. It requires dissonance on your part.

I guarantee you've called plenty of males by female pronouns and plenty of females by male pronouns and it hasn't hurt you in the slightest.

All it is is them asking you to refer to their gender, Not their sex.

Transagism is a different concept. If outwards appearances can never match what they want, It'd be harder to address them as a young person if they're old et cetera. Plastic surgery though has given many older people younger looks, And they are referred to by this. The ties between that argument and this one are weak at best.

Both sex and outward appearance of age may be things we can change in the future. Will you then fall back on a different argument, That what they originally were is what matters, Not what they literally are? I'm just not sure you're going to stick to your guns if that becomes a thing.

In the end, It's really not hard to address people by the name they want. You don't have to inwardly consider them what they want. You can consider them whatever you want. You already change nouns, Even if it takes a modicum of effort. Pronouns are really not that much harder, And you can always just refer to them by the noun instead. It really is just a matter of respect.
Posted by Thoht 3 weeks ago
Thoht
The English language evolves over time. As we find new concepts that need new words, We occasionally adjust ones we have to encompass these things. The definition of gender has been updated.

There is no reason to use girl/boy instead of male/female if sex is the only qualification that depends on. Girl/Boy are sets of stereotypes. If sex is a requirement for either of these then they lose meaning. Sex=Gender in this case. According to the new definition, It encompasses more.

Note that 'Tomboy' and other related nomenclature already does something similar, Acknowledging a third set of roles. If you accept tomboy as a distinction from girl/boy you have as much as made a third gender already.

People are trying to tell you something about themselves when they claim to be of a different gender. It means they don't want to be called a boy/girl because they don't fit into those stereotypes.

In addition to that, The argument ignores intersex people. It fails on a technicality. I have had a debate yesterday over the same idea.
Posted by Victoriousboy 3 weeks ago
Victoriousboy
There are some regions of the South in which people refer to all soft drinks as "coke". It's probably safe to assume that at some point many years ago, When soft drinks started becoming popular, "coke" meant one thing and one thing only-- "Coca-Cola. " But over time, People slowly, Over time, In the South, Started using "coke" to mean other soft drinks. Imagine, The conversations back then:
Posted by GuitarSlinger 3 weeks ago
GuitarSlinger
Let"s consider 3 cases:

Case #1 - There are some days I identify and can relate to being a 25-year old. Does that make me 25-years old? No. Sadly, I"m still 48. But, Dammit, I feel like and act like a 25 year old. Should I now start demanding people treat me as if I"m 25 years old? No. But what if it makes me really really happy that you act like and treat me as if I"m 25 years old. My life would be so much better if you did that"I would be so much happier. Should you still go along with the charade and pretend I"m 25 years old? No. Why not? Well, Simply put, Reality (my biology) doesn"t agree with what I think.

Case #2 - Ok. Well, What if on certain days I identify as an African American. I mean, I really truly feel like I"m part of the African American community. I mean, I do what I can to look like an African American. I research and listen to what I think the majority of African Americans listen to. It really really makes me happy to do this and I really really want others to think of me as African American. Should you now be obligated (forced) to consider me and act like I"m an African American? I don"t think so. Why not? Simply put, Reality (my biological makeup) is not that of an African American (I"m Hispanic).

Case #3 - Ok. Well, What if I identify as a woman. I mean, I really really feel like I"m a woman. And I do everything I can to make myself look like a woman. I put makeup, A dress and heels. I even change my voice and mannerisms to "act like a woman". I mean, My life would be so much better if everyone just treated me like a woman"I would be so much happier. Should others now be forced to treat me like a woman? Why or why not? I think the answer is no. Why not? Simply put, Reality (my biological makeup) it not that of a woman.

Why on earth would we want to treat case #3 any different than the other 2 cases?
Posted by GuitarSlinger 3 weeks ago
GuitarSlinger
@tarentz I agree. The question becomes, Which definition should we use.

There are some regions of the South in which people refer to all soft drinks as "coke". It's probably safe to assume that at some point many years ago, When soft drinks started becoming popular, "coke" meant one thing and one thing only-- "Coca-Cola. " But over time, People slowly, Over time, In the South, Started using "coke" to mean other soft drinks. Imagine, The conversations back then:

Waiter: "What kind of drink would you like, Sir? "
Southern Gentleman: "I'll take a coke. "
Waiter: "Great, What kind of coke would you like, We have many different kinds? "
Southern Gentleman: "Hmmm, Make it a Dr. Pepper, My good man! "

Now, Imagine how confusing it would be if you bring in someone, Say someone not from the South, Who held to do the traditional definition of "coke" (i. E. That "coke" equals "Coca-Cola" only). This conversation would seem very odd to such a person. It wouldn"t make sense to them.

Lots of fun and interesting (not to mention confusing and perhaps ridiculous) things start to happen if we start to redefine words and phrases and the English lexicon.

Same could be said of the word "gender". Over time people have morphed this word to mean someone's "self-perception" or "self-identity". Personally, I think that is twisting the English language and the original use of the word to promote a belief or agenda. But anywho, That's just me.

For the sake of argument, Suppose I agree and say "Ok, Fine. Let's make 'gender' mean "self-identity or what that person thinks they are. '" But I would hold fast to my statement that there are 2 and only 2 sexes: male and female. Now,

let"s go from there. So I would agree, There are literally unendless ways people can "self-identify". LGBTQ<insert more letters here>MOUSE. You want to call this "gender", Fine. So be it. The fact remains, There are only 2 sexes (male and female) (to be continued below)
Posted by Tarentz 4 weeks ago
Tarentz
Here's the thing about this debate. I believe it the misunderstanding of definitions in this debate that is misconstruing. For one sex and gender are correlated and are the same thing, However while there are only two sex/genders there are multiple gender EXPRESSIONS. Meaning there are multiple ways you can personally identify, Even those not correlating with your biological sex. I think everyone can agree on that. The problem with the debate right here is that the pro and con are debating definitions. The problem is that not one of them have brought up any official definitions. Nor have they brought any scientific evidence or grammar evidence. So to be honest both of them you be losing this round for a such a pointless and worthless, That has brought absolutely nothing to this argument.
Posted by terri87 4 weeks ago
terri87
Yup, You're either male, Or female. NOTHING in between.
Posted by GuitarSlinger 1 month ago
GuitarSlinger
There are only 2 sexes-- male and female. Historically, "gender" was used to represent the sex of an individual (i. E. Either Male or Female). Look at most, If not all forms, You would see either "Gender" or "Sex" used interchangeably, Where people would mark/circle an "M" for "male" or an "F" for "female". So, Gender had been understood to mean the sex of a person (male or female). But now, Probably in the last 10-15 years, Folks have tried to redefine words/language and get us to believe that "gender" means whatever that person thinks they are. It's ludicrous.
Posted by Vorhut 1 month ago
Vorhut
While Our_Boat_Is_Right is obviously a trolly debater. For McSloth the overabundance of words does not equate to victory, Especially when the opponent is just saying one liners.

While this was not really much of a debate, I would support the idea that gender and sex are not the same, Primarily because the word gender (or the current prominent definition) was coined in the 1950s, Sex is an identifier that is ingrained in science(Biology). So on a scientific basis, There are only two 'sexs' you can only be male or female, Only options really (And even if for those who are Trans can never remove those core identifiers XX, & XY). Gender is a coined term that is more associated with the field of Sociology(Which isn't very scientific and is rather based on observations of society. ) This is having negative effects on the field of Psychology especially when it comes to with Identity Disorders, Which is often when someone obsessively believes they are something/someone they are quite obviously are not, And it makes it difficult for Physiologists to treat these disorders effectively when addressing such issues can be considered bigoted and 'oppressive' (There's also something called "Oppressive Masochists" makes for an interesting study).

Now I also believe there are people who "identify" as a particular gender for other reasons (Trendy, Attention Seeking, Political/Social Gain, Etc) which detracts from actual people who actually have Identity Disorders. So a brief recap, Gender was coined in the last 70 years compared to the word 'sex' which is an established as a Biological identifier, Gender is a Social Construct and is 'not' Scientifically supported. So when it comes to the title of this debate "There are only two genders"; it is wrong there are not only two genders, There's an infinite amount, Because gender is a social construct and not biological in which there are only two sexes. So differentiating between the two is important to any debate surrounding it.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by ConserativeDemocrat 1 month ago
ConserativeDemocrat
Our_Boat_is_RightMcSlothTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct: Fine on both sides. S&G: Fine on both sides. Sources: Neither side presents any, so it?s tied. Arguments: Con wins this handily. Pro?s main point is that there are only two sexes, and you can?t change your sex. Con explains why this isn?t true, explaining that gender and sex are different, that sex refers strictly to biology, while gender refers social/cultural roles. Pro?s argument is about sex specifically, not gender. Pro?s only rebuttal to this is ?What if I identify as 60? Is there something wrong with that? Should there be an alternate term for "age" to fit in with what one person is pretending to be?? Con?s rebuttal was effective, explaining that age is quantifiable, while gender isn?t, so you can?t compare the two. So, I give arguments to Con, due to Pro?s weak rebuttals to Con?s points.
Vote Placed by Pandanelephant2001 1 month ago
Pandanelephant2001
Our_Boat_is_RightMcSlothTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Amazing!