The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
bacchicfrenzy
Con (against)
Winning
1 Points

There is no possible way god exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil Gary Lindsey Jr

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
bacchicfrenzy
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/12/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 824 times Debate No: 115501
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

backwardseden

Pro

Yesterday here in Orlando (where else?) Gary Wayne Lindsey Jr decided to put some bullets into 4 small children in a hostage standoff ages 11, 10, 6 and 1. If god is god (according to the bible) he knowingly knows that this event is going to happen (and other like them) trillions of years before they happen. And they will continue to happen again and again. This god guy also knowingly creates Gary and other sicko's to commit their horrific acts as well as the victims to horrifically suffer under their thumbscrews. This god character also knowingly creates those aftershocks in those that grieve. And there's no time limit on those that grieve. It is also well known that throughout the bible that god hates children and gives power to those to commit detestable acts unto children. Would you like the verses? This god guy obviously loves to watch horrific pain and suffering, otherwise he would not create it. Simple. Don't come back at me or anyone who is reasonably intelligent and thus state that its man's doing because god creates the suffering, and has committed lots of it is his bible, otherwise that is something that is out of god's control and or power to control so obviously that would prove that there is something that god cannot control so thus god is in no way a god. And what you true idiots who are stupid enough (yeah damn right I'm angry) who believe in god is if you believe in him, this god of YOURS could have easily created peace, love, kindness, care, harmony, etc etc etc AND KEPT IT. No this prick chose evil, rage, fury, vengeance, wrath, jealousy all in which he has freely admitted to. Jealousy? Jealousy is nothing but anger as disguised fear. Even worse is this supposed god in which you cannot even prove even exists, neatly passed down those baggage emotions to man so in turn man could learn to hate with at least 1 billion dead on the battlefields alone all in his supposed "good" name. Great going god. Great going for those that worship him.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.""

Tracie Harris "If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That"s the difference between me and your god. He watches and shuts the door and you go ahead and you rape that child and when your"re done I"m gonna punish you. If I did that people would think I"m a freakin" monster."

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?" And she"ll say "yes." And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven?" So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick." Phil Ferguson

"Could god have made the world and not suffering? And if they say "no" then he"s not all powerful. If they say "yes", then why didn"t he? Its a constant thing. There"s multiple ways to come at it." Phil Ferguson

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror." - Richard Dawkins

"Now I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion and organized religion. Absolutely convinced of it. And I think it, religion, should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt. And I claim that right." Christopher Hitchens

There is absolutely NOTHING you can say to circumvent this. If you believe in the god according to the bible, he's a sicko, loves EXTREME pain and suffering and is an a$$.
bacchicfrenzy

Con

Hi Backwardseden,

I will try to respond as best that I can in debate format.

I believe your points are that God does not exist because:

(1) God knows about suffering, and lets it happen
(2) God creates sickos to commit suffering, and creates the aftershocks of that suffering
(3) God creates sickos to commit suffering, so God enjoys watching horrific pain
(4) God is omnipotent, so it is ultimately God that causes pain, not humans
(5) God could have created a better world of peace, but did not


In addition, you anticipate the free will theodicy, and reply to it with:

(6) God values the free will of rapists better than the free will of children being raped.
(7) human free will is compatible with no suffering in heaven, so human free will is compatible with no suffering now.

The rest of your points are quotations from other sources, so I am not sure what your main point is from those quotes.

In reply, first of all, I would not believe in a God that endorses (1)-(7) either. That sounds like a really bad God, so I agree with your resistance of the existence of such a God. So, perhaps I am not the right person for you to have this debate with - sorry about that. If, however, you would like to have a discussion with someone who believes in the traditional God of theism, I will try to explain the nature of this God a bit.

With respect to (1), it is true that the traditional God of theism knows about suffering. In fact, according to the Christian tradition, Jesus was murdered as well, so God would know of suffering more than you or I. Does God let it happen? Yes and no. Yes: God does not always actively intervene, that is true. There are reasons for that, see below. No: God has a plan to stop suffering. The plan involves God suffering for us, and teaching people how to stop hurting each other, then making a heaven where people are wise enough to not hurt each other anymore. True, people don't listen to God's wishes on earth. And God is as upset about this as you are. And, if you hope for some sort of justice for these terrible things, God does too. You will probably object: God is ultimately to blame, cuz God made everything. I will deal with that concern in (4). You may also object: God can just stop it from happening at any time. I will deal with this in (4) as well.

With respect to (2), God creates humans with free will, which means the potential for helping or harming. Is this bad? Well, would you rather be a puppet on a string where no one can freely help or hurt you, or would you rather be free while knowing that people can freely help or hurt you? Most people would choose the latter. I suspect you do as well. But, perhaps you don't. If you do accept the latter, then you agree that free will, as a general category, without anyone doing anything good or evil yet, is good. Now, some people use their free will to help others, and we should praise them for doing so. Others use their free will to hurt others, and we should blame them for doing so. We should not blame someone who does not do a crime: don't put Joe in jail for murder if Stan did it. So, if a person harms another, don't blame God, blame the person. I suppose this Gary is to blame in your particular example, since he actually did these terrible things. So, the aftershocks should be traced to the person who actually did the crime, not someone else. So, God is not to blame. Unless, perhaps God stepped out from the sky and cast a lightning bolt down on these people. If that is what happened, I guess God is to blame. But you said Gary did it, so I will just believe you on that.

About (3), the God of theism states that God is upset when humans hurt each other, and is actively trying to stop it, and actively instructs them to stop it. So, the traditional God doesn't enjoy watching suffering. I suspect that your point here is connected to (4).

On to (4), the God of theism limited his omnipotence to give humans a small slice of free will and control over their lives. Note: not all theists believe this. Some Calvinists disagree, for example. But, I will assume my theology here. If God was good to give humans free will, then some humans used that free will to hurt others, it is not God that is to blame, but the people who actually hurt others. Think of it the other way: Jonas Salk cured polio. Should we praise God for what Jonas did? No. Jonas did it, praise Jonas. Humans are slowly developing out of their poverty. Should we praise God for that? No. Praise humanity for our progress, since we did it. Sally loves Joe and treats him well, should we praise God for that? No, Sally did that. We do not praise God for the good of humanity, nor do we blame God for the bad of humanity. Perhaps you object: God is all powerful, so God should just stop harm on the spot. God has given humans free will, so God cannot take it away once they choose to do bad. It sounds like you hate that idea. You say: a good God would stop this suffering. Well, I say God has given the world to us to fix or destroy. It is up to us to stop all the suffering. If a child is starving in Africa, we should blame ourselves for that.

On (5), I argued that free will + help/harm is a better world than no free will + no help/harm. If that is correct, this free will + help/harm world is better than a world of no free will, but unending peace. Perhaps you object: we could have both free will and unending peace. See (7).

About (6), no. God gives all people free will, and enjoins them to help others, not harm others. That is the extent of God's involvement. Everything beyond that is to be placed at the hands of humanity. Blame Gary for what Gary did. Blame the state, or the country, or humanity, if it does not enact laws to stop Gary. So God values the free will of everyone equally, and wants everyone to use it to help others. Gary, obviously, will face consequences, both among humanity, and with God.

About (7), free will is compatible with people using free will to do good, yes. And, in heaven, that is what people will do. Or, should I say, the people who use free will to do good will be the people in heaven, so it makes sense why heaven would be a place of both free will and helpfulness. Earth is still full of people who are using free will to do both harm and help. So, we are stuck with bad down here.

Anyway, I'm sure I missed a lot of your points, and I was purposely avoiding your anger, as that is not helpful in these types of debates. But, that is a start.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

I"m not going to give you much lead way, that is if any on this because here"s how I operate".
If there is the slightest hint of you inventing excuses from something in which you clearly know nothing about, especially when its the subject in which you claim to professing you have knowledge upon, namely this one, and you really don"t, and yet you pretend that you do by coming up with invented excuses and or flat out lying, I will insult you with my brand of insults that are original, funny, stupid, deranged and walls to the ball insane, unless those excuses are so far fetched that they are clearly pulled off from your groin to be a groin pull from the gold-i-lox area to keep scientists looking for other planets, then all bets are truly off and I may end the debate right then and there because I DO KNOW my stuff, whereas most don"t. So this will be on a strike 3 basis. Now I didn't see any of that (thankfully). But wow. A lot of trying to psychoanalyze me which really doesn't work either. Sorry if I seem a bit harsh. But I am really tired of those that just simply don't know their stuff. Here you got caught with a snag, actually 2 of them, thinking that there's free with of you believe in god, and thinking that christ for whatever reason is the savoir (he ain't) and has to do with any part pof this conversation.
Now with the slightest glaring overlook of your "debate" there were 2 overshadows that I cannot overlook"
1. "and I was purposely avoiding your anger" And yet is perfectly OK for your god to have anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy - especially jealousy, that"s a good one which only leads to hate? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? That"s an easy strike 1. It should be strike 3 right there.
2. No. god does not exist because there is no proof that god exists. None. Now if you believe in god, then you are forced into believing in hate.
3. I didn"t mention jesus. That"s strike 2. jesus was a false prophet. And even you don"t believe in him. To prove it, watch this short video. And yeah look the verses up. http://www.youtube.com... - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus? I seriously doubt if there"s 1,000 true christians on the planet. But jesus is another subject.

"human free will is compatible with no suffering in heaven, so human free will is compatible with no suffering now." Nope of there is no suffering in heaven created by god in heaven, he can create no suffering here on earth. god is an a$$.

"it is true that the traditional God of theism knows about suffering." Course he does and loves it otherwise he would not create it. Simple. OK jesus, done, not gonna read it.

"god creates humans with free will," Um nope. That"s strike 3. Do you know anything at all about your religion? I really can"t continue with this debate because this debate is NOT negotiable. No offence. Since when did the child age 1 have free will to escape from having a bullet being shot into her noggin? Don"t hand me with this free will crap. But here"s a lot more on it and its not even begun but as stated, that"s for another debate.

More on free will and there"s a whole ton more, but that"s for another debate and another and another etc. You show me or anyone where in the bible, anywhere that YOUR christian god says something to the effect of "I the LORD thy god grants man free will." The fact of the matter is, is that it doesn't exist. Not anywhere. So in fact your god does NOT grant you Free Will of any kind. Period. But in truth, I hope you find it because then that would mean that YOUR bible hypocritically contradicts itself YET AGAIN for the thousandth time or so with all of its inconsistencies, because there so many verses that prove that god does not, by any means, grant Free Will.

Another example in fact god shuts you down with Free Will all over his bible. A perfect example of that are the 10 commandments... Threatening people with death is taking Free Will away.
Thankfully pretty much no one follows the justice followed by the ridiculous mayhem madness god.

The 10 commandments are a perfect example. How can you uphold stupid idiotic laws that have no meaning? If those were to be upheld, as a guess at least 80% of this population would not be in existence or better. But that is what is estimated of those who claim that they are christians who do not read their bible except for once every other week. And that"s only a couple of verses, if that. So they are not true christians.
* Taking thy lord thy god"s name is vein requires being stoned to death (blasphemy).
* Working on the sabbath also requires to be put to death.
* Adultery requires to be put to death
* Honoring your parents/ dishonoring cursing at you parents requires you as the child to be put to death. WHAT? The others listed above are what they are. But honor thy mother and father. What? Not if they rape, beat and torture me. Not if they are lousy parents and they do not guide me in my journey through life in growing up. Not if they abuse me such as neglect and for me to be ignored which is the worst form of abuse there is which is what your god did to nearly 100% of those who have EVER walked the earth. Your god HATES children. Yet there"s no commandment to protect children from any kind of harm thus proving that the 10 commandments are trash.

Here's some videos for your beady little eyes to watch to show you how twisted god is with Free Will, the paradoxes, and the evils and hate of it...
http://www.youtube.com... - An All Knowing God versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
http://www.youtube.com... - Free Will With god
http://www.youtube.com... - How god Favors Free Will
http://www.youtube.com... - Does god Allow Free Will?

I'm really tired. I need my sleep and I sleep for a day. But those strikes, if you think about them are gallstones WHICH SHOULD NOT EXIST because once again your god, in which you cannot even prove even exists, could have easily started off with peace (which has never been achieved since his inception), love, care, kindness, harmony etc etc etc AND KEPT IT.
bacchicfrenzy

Con

I believe I found four replies in your post.


(1) a one year old child cannot have free will to escape a bullet being shot at them.


Again, there is a difference between humans having the faculty of free will, and how humans exercise free will. This is similar to: humans have the ability to move their bodies, but where they move will be different; humans have the capacity to have emotions, though which emotions occur will be different; humans have the ability to think, though what beliefs they have will be different. Similarly, humans have the ability to choose, but what they choose will be different. God gives human the ability to choose, so God is responsible for the general category of free will. God does not dictate what people will do with free will. We blame the individual, or praise the individual for what they do with free will. Jane gives a rose to John. John then uses the thorn to cut someone. Do we blame Jane? No. Similarly, God gives a mind to people, some use that mind to argue for God’s existence, others use that mind to argue against God’s existence. God just gives the mind. God certainly isn’t to be blamed/praised for you using your mind to argue against God. Similarly, God isn’t to be blamed/praised for whether a human hurts or helps another with their free will. So, the one year old has the capacity for free will, as does the shooter. The shooter then stole away that child’s ability to act freely for the rest of that child’s life. That is truly sad. The shooter is terrible for doing so.


(2) God does not endorse free will


Well, most theists disagree with you, so perhaps you are describing a different God again. The Bible is filled with texts stating: ‘Choose you this day who you will serve’ (Joshua 24:15). The Bible is filled with moral exhortations to choose God, choose a good life, etc… The Bible also clearly lays moral responsibility for action at the feet of the individual choosing, since only those who choose to go to heaven will go to heaven. You object: this is a contradiction, since the Bible also talks about pre-destination. Yes, the Bible talks about pre-destination. This is not a contradiction. It just shows that God is complex, and a simple analysis will not get anyone very far. We can get into molinism if you would like.


(3) God threatening people with death is taking Free Will away


On the contrary, God would not need to threaten people with anything, or promise people anything, if God did not give them the ability to choose. A threat/promise implies the other can choose. Otherwise, God would just do whatever God wanted. So, your argument is self-defeating. Moreover, God is simply pointing out the consequences of their choices, so God is actually trying to increase their chance of choosing to help others (which, I presume you want, since you are so upset about the times when people hurt each other). If I tell a child: ‘if you eat your broccoli, you will be healthy, but if you eat cake all day, you will get fat’, I am not taking their free will away. They can still choose to eat broccoli or cake. I am just informing them of the consequences, so they will make the wise choice. Perhaps you object: God is coercing people into helping others, by threatening them. If so, so does the state, when it passes laws against murder. Are you upset at the state for making laws against murder? If not, why be upset at God for making laws against murder? Does the state take away free will when it passes laws? No, the citizens can still murder each other if they choose. The state just informs them that they will go to prison if they do. Perhaps you think this is still coercion, since now fewer people will murder each other, compelled by the fear of prison, so people are less free to actually carry out murder. Well, good. I’m glad the state does that, and I’m glad God does that.


(4) The ten commandments suck.


If you want to get into a discussion about process theology, we could. Suffice it to say that the ten commandments were very sophisticated for the time, and relevant to the time. A couple of thousand years later, Jesus points out that love of neighbor is actually the root of these laws. These days, we work out what love of neighbor means in new contexts, guided by the spirit. Consider: you tell a four year old: ‘Do not cross the road without me’. That is a very rudimentary law, and actually makes no sense in the long run. But, for a four year old, that is all they understand, and that law is very good. It keeps them safe. Of course, as they grow up, the child understands the root of the rule is to keep them safe. They learn about cars and driving, and how cars can hit them. Once they are wise enough, the rule is no longer needed, as the general principle of staying safe is all that really matters. You cannot start with the general principle, however, since the four year old will not understand that. So, you are upset at the ten commandments, as if that is the root of morality for theists. It is not. The ten commandments is like the rule given to four year olds. The actual morality is ‘love thy neighbor’, among a few other things.


You also linked to a few videos, but that is not your original argument. Feel free to explain the relevant points if you would like.


Please let me know if I missed some of your points. I grant that I probably missed some points. I acknowledge that I am used to arguments being presented with clarity and logical structure, with an aim of making the interlocutor understand the points. So, I admit that I am not used to your style, so your arguments have been difficult for me to discern.

Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Again I"m not going to allow you too much lead way here because there" no room for error on your part.
1.Did you watch the videos which prove that if you believe in your god that you have 0% Free Will? No. Obviously not. So you have nothing to offer to counter. PE-RI-OD.
(1) "a one year old child cannot have free will to escape a bullet being shot at them." Its the same thing as daddy raping, and beating and torturing a 4 year old all the way up until 17 while punching her in the face, sometimes twice per week, all the way up until 17, and that was only the start of her horrors in which she had no free will to escape. She had no free will then. PE-RI-OD. I"m not missing anything.
"Again, there is a difference between humans having the faculty of free will, and how humans exercise free will." What an utterly stupid statement. If YOU believe in your god, in no possible way is that possible because once again YOU and YOUR god are exercising power the people who are committing those who are abusers and violators + everything else on the map.
"This is similar to: humans have the ability to move their bodies, but where they move will be different;" 4 years olds cannot escape from daddy committing these atrocities to move their bodies differently is A MISERABLE EXCUSE. Neither can mommy or children in which according to you, YOUR god creates these monsters to commit these crimes per year. "humans have the capacity to have emotions, though which emotions occur will be different; humans have the ability to think, though what beliefs they have will be different." Has 0% to escape rape. "Similarly, humans have the ability to choose, but what they choose will be different."NOT IF YOU ARE A 4 YEAR OLD, AND OR A 17 YEAR OLD AND OR A SPOUSE BEING TIED DOWN BEING RAPED OR AS THE TITLE OF THIS DEBATE (NOT REALLY A DEBATE THOUGH) There is no possible way god exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil Gary Lindsey Jr in which shot and thus murdered 4 children WHO DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE from this person WHO DID HAVE A CHOICE in which YOUR god GAVE ALL THE POWER TO.
"God gives human the ability to choose," Where EXACTLY in your bible does it say that? In fact it doesn"t, not anywhere. You just invented an excuse.in which you know NOTHING about. And again, 1 year olds, nor 4 year old, not women being raped DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. Now you clearly 100% did not watch the videos, so until you do, I"m ending this.
bacchicfrenzy

Con


Hi Backwardseden,


I believe I found one reply in your comments:


(1) If a person X does something terrible to take away the free will of another person Y, then the person Y has no free will.


I repeat, God gives the potential for free will to people. If that person dies, either of natural causes, or by murder, then of course that person no longer has free will, by virtue of being dead. That does not mean that the person never had free will in their lives. Imagine a seventeen year old gets murdered by Gary. Yes, Gary took away the future choices that the dead person would have had. Is that your argument? I think that is obvious, no one would disagree with you on that. Moreover, if Gary does something terrible, but short of murder, then Gary minimizes the choices that the victim has. Let us say that Gary steals a thousand dollars from Sally. Sally does lose some choices, as she can now no longer buy the computer she hoped to buy. Yes, when people harm others, they often minimize the choices others have, either entirely snuffing it out, or lessening it. But, that does not mean Sally lacks free will. She still has options.


On the positive side, whenever someone gives birth to a child, they give a life of free will to that child. Also on the positive side, when people help each other, they increase the choices that others have. For example, if John gives a thousand dollars to Sally, she now can buy the computer she wants. Civilization has been a slow march of increased freedom. Our life expectancy, literacy and education, health, prosperity and economic ability are all trending the right direction, as a species. Of course, I do not credit God with giving this extra freedom to the race, nor would I blame God if humans started to take freedom away from each other by harming each other. I blame the person who actually did it - humans. You, as an atheist, should have no trouble blaming humans, not God, for what humans do, since God does not even exist in your worldview.


A more general note. The universe started as chaos, particles bouncing in a void. Slowly, God started to bring order to chaos, giving rise to the conditions to support life, then life, then humans, then you and me. We are lucky to be here. We are dependent beings, take away our breath for five minutes, and we are dead. We are a step away from dying all the time, and that is on the lucky days when the particles in our body are organized in such a way as to sustain life. I don’t know why you expect things to be perfect, and are angry at God when they are not. Things are a chaos, forces more powerful than us can knock us down at any time. Thankfully, God is slowly putting things together, with our help. But, we are nowhere close to done. Join in the ordering of all things, not the chaos of things. Of course, much is still in waste. What else can you expect? Do you expect to just start existing through no work of your own, have particles arranged in such a way to support your life, through no work of your own, have food, shelter and some democracy and rule of law given to you, through no work of your own, have a body that can flourish and be happy at times, through no work of your own, and on top of that expect existence to be the perfect little way you think it should be? That is pretty entitled thinking you are imposing on a universe that doesn't care for you at all. The world is full of forces stronger than us, these forces end up destroying us sooner or later. But, God started putting a few things together, and we can hold a few things together as well, if we want to be good people. Chaos and disaster are to be expected, not surprising or alarming at all. The amazing thing is when things go well, when for a brief moment we are alive, when for a brief moment of life, we are happy. You are so busy blaming God for some evil that God didn’t even do, even though you don't think God even exists to be blameable, and refusing to be grateful for the universe that for a moment gives rise to you and gives you a moment in the sun to flourish.


Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Here's something Matt said a while back that I should have posted earlier. Sorry I didn't.
"When you start making excuses for atrocities you have removed yourself from ANY valid discussion on morals. When you say "yes the bible says you can own slaves but" well now you"re contradicting yourself because before I was asking if you thought the bible was accurately representing the mind of god, the will of god. You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them. You"ve gone and looked at them and said "boy that one really sounds bad, BUT that"s what Israel was doing that"s not what god was doing. So let me ask you this" do you believe that there"s an all knowing all powerful fun loving god who has an important message for humanity and he is so completely inept that his best attempts at communicating to people managed to convey the exact opposite message of what you think he meant? Now like are you the one who got it right? And all the people who authored the holy book and got you started that they managed to get it wrong? Is your god such a bumbling buffoon that he cannot state "thou shalt not own somebody as another human being?" or "please don"t rape the people and pillage the villages around you"" and he managed to communicate so poorly that it got written down as "Thou shalt be able to own other people as property and oh by the way go over there and kill everybody kill everything except for the young virgins." Its asinine. You cannot reconcile this." Matt Dillahunty
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
This will be my final communication with you. I no longer wish to communicate with someone who cannot be reasoned with no matter what. It is so easy to see why you have no genuine friends and loved ones which is a HUGE red flag. I only communicate with those that are intelligent, educated and listen to others and you do neither. As I'm sure that I've stated probably more than once.... you are someone who if someone were to agree and think EXACTLY like you, you would somehow still manage to find fault with that person. The thing is, is that you have been proven wrong with ---everything---. You haven't looked at the videos at all about Free Will, at all. You cannot find any verses where your bible flatly states "I the lord thy god grants man free will" so you as a christian have no free will no matter how many excuses you invent. You haven't looked at the verses at all thus proving your god's 100% pure evil, and even if you were to have examined them, you probably wouldn't even have the foggiest idea as to what evil is. Its also very point blank obvious that you have no idea as to what the meaning of the word "love" is. And its also point blank obvious that you have no idea as to what pain and suffering is either as you have never experienced it. Or if you have, then you are using your religion as a shield as many people do which is based on a lie. And trust me, you have 0% of an idea as to what pain and suffering truly is. But I can ask you this in which outs all of your religion to the s--its... what can anybody, especially children possibly learn from horrific pain and suffering, except nothing? The Buddhists teach the end of suffering. christianity teaches the beginning of suffering. Oh gee. I cannot possibly imagine what is the better one?
So I leave you with this, and yeah it was from yesterday. A coincidence?
- Atheist Experience 22.24 with Matt Dillahunty and Don Baker go to 9m to 10:45.
Posted by bacchicfrenzy 3 years ago
bacchicfrenzy
Hi Backwardseden,

I'm glad you had a good spiritual experience from watching that channel you speak of. Spirituality is important, it lifts us up. As for your arguments, your tactic is what philosophers call 'the strawperson fallacy'. You define God in this horrible way that no theist would agree with, and then you easily refute the version of God you have defined incorrectly and horribly. I don't believe in the God you speak of, and I applaud you for not believing in that God as well. If you want to engage with theists, you have to allow them the view that they adhere to. Your job as a philosopher is to accurately describe the exact position of your opponent, and then rationally scrutinize it. I grant it, it is easier to just yell 'that is stupid' to the arguments you do not agree with. But, that is not an argument.

As for your arguments, in my first reply to you, I argued that God, by granting free will to people, does not prevent people from doing things. So God is all powerful in the sense that God can do anything, but that doesn't mean that God does everything. God allows humans to use free will to help or harm others. So, that is the position of the theist.

And, God does not create or do evil when a person does evil. If you blame God for everything bad people do, you have to praise God for everything good people do. On balance, humans are progressing and treating each other better. So, if you are right that we should praise/blame God for what humans do, we should be praising God more than scorning God. But, we do neither, since personal responsibility decrees that whoever did the act is to be praised/blamed. It is humans that do good/bad, so we blame humans. Also, nature helps/harms us, so we can be thankful/blameful at nature if we want, not God.

Anyway, I would keep going, but I've run out of space. I encourage you to avoid the straw person fallacy, and the elicit appeal to emotion fallacy.
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
I'm thankful backwardness was gracious enough to allow me to vote on this debate. It took me awhile to come to a decision. It was very close. Good job you two!
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, 2 KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813, 2 CHR 14: 9-14 1,000,000!!! etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? Nope. In your bible that is based on your god's superior ego god complex and nothing but, he's murdered a total of 2,821,364
Should you or anyone be worshiping this so-called god who in his bible has demonstrated he has a superior bloated ego complex in which NOBODY can even prove exists? Sure. If you believe in hate and evil and complete immorality.

Now the both of you have been proven have been proven so terribly wrong that what you think of truth, has been proven 100% false and has been turned on its head unless the both of you are so completely brainwashed that no matter what is said to you, reason cannot be used constructively to engineer any blood clots that damn up your brains into flowing ideas.

Here's a thought! If you get the National Geographic channel, or not go to www.fox.com and look up national geographic. Then look for perhaps he greatest documentary series ever made named "One Strange Rock" and start watching. It will make you feel part of something as I did. It is very spiritual. Wow is it uplifting. There's not one negative part about it. It treats the earth as a a living breathing functioning planet, that every living thing is inner connected. It takes everybody to places they've never seen, dreamed of or been. To ideas they've never heard of or dreamed to say "wow I never knew that." Its told from a totally unique perspective which is from 8 astronauts as they have the experience to be above the earth and see how everything, namely how life functions as one big organism - mother earth.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
* god loves rape in his bible NU 31: 17-18, 2 SAM 12: 11-18 sick and disgusting, JD 19:24-29, JD 21: 10-24, DT 20: 10-14, DT 22: 28-29, DT 21: 10-14, JD 5:30, EX 21 7-11, ZE 14: 1-2 proving that he is evil, pure evil and nothing but, is filled with hate and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god commits abortions who knows how many times within several verses in his bible, so that means that christians do not follow their god which is extremely hypocritical and contradictory from his bible HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, 2 KS 8: 9-15 sick and disgusting, 2 HS 15:16 sick and disgusting, HS 9: 11-16, and perhaps the biggest acts of abortions were committed in the great flood according to this so-called god of the bible in the great flood (which never happened btw) so who knows how many pregnant mothers died there in his bible thus proving this god to be nothing but pure evil, hate and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god loves yummy cannibalism in his bible LM 2: 20-22, JM 11: 22-23, LV 26:29, 2 KS 6:28-29, LM 4: 9-11, proving this god to be truly sick and completely whacked out thus is evil, hates,and thus cannot be involved with love..
* Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan, all serial killers, all rapists, all tortures, all pedophiles, all sadomasochists etc etc etc combined. After all god knowingly created them which means that he is ultimately responsible for them. Its either that or god is not a god and lets them off the hook with nothing but a tap on the shoulder for their horrific, disgusting, repugnant crimes and simply god---does---not---care. Now here's some examples of god"s sickened, diseased, abominable atrocities for absolutely no reason at all... the great flood according to the bible (which never happened btw) so who knows what the body count was there?
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
* god wants you to die in his bible if you break the sabbath EX 31:14, NU 15: 32-36 proving god hates and is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god issues death warrants on those that curse at their parents (they are probably children) EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4 proving god hates and is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god wants to put you to death in his bible if you commit adultery LV 20:10 proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god has freely admitted in his bible numerous times that he IS evil IS 45:7, 2 SAM 12: 11-14 sick and disgusting, EX 32:14, 1 KS 1 22: 22-23, 2 CR 18:22, JM 19:3, JM 19:15, JM 23:12, AM 3:6, DT 30:15, 2 KS 22:16, JU 9:23, PV 15:3 thus proving that he IS evil which is irrefutable and also proves he hates and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god in his bible knowingly and truly hates children through numerous passages such as LM4: 9-11, MT 10:37, MT 2:16, JG 21:10, 2 SAM 12:11-14 which is truly sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31: 17-18, LV 26: 21-22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16, 2 KS 15:16, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, EX 12: 29-30, IS 13: 15-18, MT 2:16, (EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4, MT 10:21), JG 11: 30-33, PS 137: 8-9, 2 KS 6: 28-29, DT 21: 18-21, DT 32:25, DT 2: 32-34, DT 3: 3-6, JG 19: 24-29, EX 12:29, 2 HS 2: 23-24, LV 26:29, JM 11: 22-23, JM 19: 7-9, JM 51: 22-26, 2 KS 8: 9-15,LM 2: 20-22, RV 2: 18-23 only to name a few proves god hates and is 100% pure evil and 100% proves he cannot be involved with love.
* god hates women in his bible LM 4 9-11 sick and disgusting, HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, JD 21:10, 2 SAM 12 11-14 sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31 17:18, LV 26 21:22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16 sick and disgusting, DT 2 32-34, 2 KS 8: 9-15, 2 KS 15:16 sick and disgusting, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, 2 KS 6: 28-29 sick and disgusting, JD 19: 24-29, LM 2 20-22 sick and disgusting, 1 COR 14:34,1 TY 2:12 proves god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
ABSOLUTELY 100% NOT "The real question is: how would God allow humans or nature to hurt other humans. The question is not: how would God do these things to humans." If things were your idiotic way in which you obviously have not thought things through because you cannot think, reason, rationalize, use common sense nor use logic that means that YOUR god is not in control of everything, is not in charge of everything, is not all knowing and all powerful, does not know everything, is not omnipotent, is not perfect which means that you god is simply not a god. And to prove you completely 100% wrong right now because you obviously haven't read your bible AT ALL and wow does it show

And Jack Gilbert this also appeals to you and I'm really getting sick and tired of ALWAYS proving you wrong and you being a true coward and never responding because you know that you have 0 out and have lost...

* god hates gays in his bible and wants them stoned to death LV 20:13 proving god hates,is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god hates anyone that blasphemes and wants to put you to death LV 24:16 which is true 100% hate and evil and nothing but and shows that god is nothing but hate and evil.
* god hates anyone that does not believe in him in his bible 2 CHR 15: 12-13, ESPECIALLY if someone worships another god/ idols other than himself, thus wants to kill them DT 13: 9-10 and 17: 2-5 proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god endorses slavery in his bible EX 21 the entire chapter especially 20-21 which is truly sick and disgusting, LV 25:39, LV 25:42, LV 25: 44-46, DT 15: 12-15, DT 23: 14-16, MT 18:25, proving god hates, is evil and thus cannot be involved with love.
* god gets jealous in his bible EX 20: 3-5, EX 34:14, DT 4: 23-24, DT 32: 16-17, DT 5:9, DT 6:15, JH 24:19, PS 79:5, PS 78:58, 2 COR 1:2, proving that he is evil, hates and thus cannot be involved with love.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@bacchicfrenzy - I truly HATE people like you which will come up with any excuse whatsoever to save his god's a$$ from crucifixion and he can't do it. Sorry.Now I am really f--king angry at you for yet again inventing more excuses in which you clearly have none. I'm really tired of it. A DISABLED person like a one year old having a bullet being put into him has no free will you f--king jerk. Also once again, you still cannot prove that your god even exists, and you still have yet to prove that ANYWHERE in your total evil bible in which your god creates and he freely admits that he does and freely admits that he is evil in his bible numerous times IS: 45:7 is the best "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." But nah you christians cannot take YOUR god's word AT ALL.
2 SAM 12: 11-14 sick and disgusting, EX 32:14, 1 KS 1 22: 22-23, 2 CR 18:22, JM 19:3, JM 19:15, JM 23:12, AM 3:6, DT 30:15, 2 KS 22:16, JU 9:23, PV 15:3 Yeah that's one major reason why YOUR god would ---never--- use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.
It is so easy to once again see why you have no genuine friends and loved ones and deservedly so.
And once again YOU FRICKEN SHOW ME ANYWHERE IN YOUR BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS ANYTHING AT ALL EVEN REMOTELY LIKE "I the lord thy god grants man free will" So until that happens, you have nothing as far as free will is concerned.
Now it looks like the videos are not showing up. OK so here they are. And you have no excuse for not watching them. If you believe in YOUR god, you have NO FREE WILL.
- All Knowing god versus Free Will: The Greatest Religious Contradiction
- Free Will With god
- god Favors Evil
- god allows Free Will?
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
Evil is the result of free will. GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL. When Adam and Eve sinned, evil entered the world.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
backwardsedenbacchicfrenzyTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro said Con had "beady, little eyes" in round two. This was insulting, and therefore poor conduct.

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