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backwardseden
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CivilTube
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There is no possible way god exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil: Timmy Kinner

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CivilTube
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/3/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 638 times Debate No: 116236
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backwardseden

Pro

Taken from http://www.foxnews.com... "Hundreds mourn at vigil for victims of birthday party attack"

BOISE, Idaho " A 3-year-old Idaho girl who was stabbed at her birthday party died Monday, two days after a man invaded the celebration and attacked nine people with a knife, authorities said.

Timmy Kinner is accused of stabbing a group of children and the adults who tried to protect them at the party at an apartment complex that is home to many refugee families.

Word of the child's death came at Kinner's first court appearance, where Ada County Magistrate Judge Russell Comstock told him that he was charged with first-degree murder and other felonies in connection with the Saturday night attack.

Comstock told Kinner he was "an extreme danger to the community" and ordered him held without bond.

Kinner is American, and the victims are members of refugee families from Syria, Iraq and Ethiopia. Boise Police Chief William Bones said the evidence does not suggest the attack was a hate crime.

The suspect had recently stayed at the apartment complex but was asked to leave Friday over bad behavior, Bones said.

The 30-year-old appeared in court through closed-circuit video, a common practice for first appearances in Idaho. Wearing a tattered off-white sweatshirt with his arms shackled to his waist, Kinner told the judge he didn't understand the charges or proceedings. He also said he wanted to represent himself.

The judge ordered that he be appointed a public defender anyway.

"I can't explain the charges any more clearly than I just did," he told Kinner.

Three of the stabbing victims were adults, the others children: the 3-year-old girl who died, two 4-year-olds, a 6-year-old, an 8-year-old and a 12-year-old.

If convicted, Kinner could be eligible for execution under Idaho law. Ada County Prosecutor Jan Bennetts said her office has not yet decided whether to seek the death penalty, saying those "high-level decisions" are made only after all the facts are in.

Monday evening roughly 1,500 people turned out at a vigil honoring members of refugee families targeted in the stabbing.

People wept, sang and shouted their support for the refugee community, and many brought bouquets of white flowers intended to symbolize peace. By the end of the rally, hundreds of bouquets filled dozens of baskets on the steps of Boise's City Hall.

But community leaders told the crowd that what the survivors really need is money to cover rapidly growing medical bills and space at home to try to overcome the constant sense of unease they've experienced since the attack. Boise Mayor Dave Bieter and others urged community members to do what they can to help.

Signs were dotted throughout the crowd, some reading "love wins" and "we are all immigrants."

Younis Kamel, a 16-year-old who moved to Boise from Iraq, and his 23-year-old sister Zuzu Kamel held up a more poignant sign:

"I will never forget seeing my friend getting stabbed in front of me," the sign read. Younis Kamel was at the apartment complex the night of the attack.

Another woman held a sign reading "Justice for Teeba," with a photo of a young child in a hospital bed, a breathing tube obscuring part of his face with half a dozen other tubes and medical devices connected to his body.

Louai Nasri, who also lives in the apartment complex, held up a large poster of a young girl dressed in an ornately embroidered shirt and hat. In the photo she is standing in front of a Disney Princess-themed banner and gesturing to a pink, doll-shaped birthday cake.

The picture is of Roaya, the 3-year-old girl whose birthday party was attacked. Nasri said she was a friend of his son's.

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There is absolutely no possible way that if the piece of crap god of the bible exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil. It really is quite that simple. After all, this god of yours, who knowingly creates everybody, knows EXACTLY what is going to happen to everybody trillions of years in advance. Well of course that is only true if god is god.

And the thing is that's even better is this god guy ---always--- favors the evildoer as these children, they don't know what's going on, how to get away, that they are under attack, how to fight back. And absolutely the sicko killer knows this. Even better since the evil doer commits his crimes, naturally its usually against children, in which god truly hates. Would you like the verses? No. I didn't think so.

And then it gets even better because of all those around these kids who will have to go through their lives of grieving and suffering and of loss in which they may never recover from.

It keeps happening again and again and again. god must love it. Otherwise he would not create it.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.""

Tracie Harris "If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That"s the difference between me and your god. He watches and shuts the door and you go ahead and you rape that child and when your"re done I"m gonna punish you. If I did that people would think I"m a freakin" monster."

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?" And she"ll say "yes." And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven?" So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick." Phil Ferguson

"Could god have made the world and not suffering? And if they say "no" then he"s not all powerful. If they say "yes", then why didn"t he? Its a constant thing. There"s multiple ways to come at it." Phil Ferguson

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror." - Richard Dawkins

"Now I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion and organized religion. Absolutely convinced of it. And I think it, religion, should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt. And I claim that right." Christopher Hitchens

There is absolutely NOTHING you can say to circumvent this. If you believe in the god according to the bible, well sorry he's a sicko, loves EXTREME pain and suffering and is an a$$.
CivilTube

Con

Hi, Backwardseden, my name is Efron. I'm a former follower of Christ, and currently labelled as "agnostic."

There is little to say on the matter of the gruesome stabbings other than what has already been said. I agree wholeheartedly. That man is a monster, and none of those children had any say in whether their life was to be spared or taken, which an incredible injustice to say the very least.

"There is absolutely no possible way that if the piece of crap god of the bible exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil. It really is quite that simple. After all, this god of yours, who knowingly creates everybody, knows EXACTLY what is going to happen to everybody trillions of years in advance. Well of course that is only true if god is god."

I agree with your first statement, in that because there is good, there has to be evil to contrast. You seem to be angry in a god that you don't believe in; furthermore, a god that Christ-followers do not believe in either. You're putting God in a box the same way that "so-called Christians" do all the time. The belief in a higher creative being does not have to be characterized by a stagnant mindset. To elaborate, no one can understand God completely, but Christ-followers are able to infer what God is *not* via (H)is sure teachings.

"And the thing is that's even better is this god guy ---always--- favors the evildoer as these children, they don't know what's going on, how to get away, that they are under attack, how to fight back. And absolutely the sicko killer knows this. Even better since the evil doer commits his crimes, naturally its usually against children, in which god truly hates. Would you like the verses? No. I didn't think so."

It's unhelpful to me that you claim these "God hates children" verses exist, and decide not to cite them, but I digress. Matthew 19:13-15, ESV: "Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." And he laid his hands on them and went away."

This doesn't speak to me as children-hating, does it to you?

"And then it gets even better because of all those around these kids who will have to go through their lives of grieving and suffering and of loss in which they may never recover from. it keeps happening again and again and again. god must love it. Otherwise he would not create it."

Who says God loves suffering? The only things we can understand about God are the things he claims of himself, or the things claimed of him by "The Prophets."

There is still much debate on the topic you speak of; why did God create humans, the most barbaric and vicious creatures upon the face of the earth? No census has been reached, unfortunately. No census *should* be reached, in my opinion. Pentecostal reasoning suggests that God "was lonely." What kinda BS is that, right?

"'Now I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion and organized religion. Absolutely convinced of it. And I think it, religion, should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt. And I claim that right.'"

Now THAT is sensible. Organized religion; the main source of hatred in the world. You're exactly correct. What this quote DOESN'T say is that believing in God is believing in complacency in injustice.
True Christ-followers DO ridicule, hate, and hold contempt for "Organized Religion." Because organized religion is what cults are defined as. What is called the "Body of Christ" is a community of believers trying to help and support those who are suffering, while spreading the gospel of peace and love.

"There is absolutely NOTHING you can say to circumvent this. If you believe in the god according to the bible, well sorry he's a sicko, loves EXTREME pain and suffering and is an a$$."

Please elaborate on your reasoning so that I may further explain my point.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Seasoned beatings. I mean greetings. I have to say that. And how are you drooling today? Oh whoooppps, yet another miss-steak on my part. I meant to say doing today, yeah that"s it. I have to be sarcastic. My name is Michael. I have never been a follower of that idiot abomination christ and I"m not stupid enough to, nor is any intelligent person either. Its really quite impossible. And there"s really no such a thing as being "christian".

Exactly" "There is little to say on the matter of the gruesome stabbings"" But its not only that. Things like that are daily occurrences and its quite sickening and its gotta stop. People need to come together and realize that these monsters don"t need to breathe around children nor see the light of day.

"There is absolutely no possible way that if the piece of crap god of the bible exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil. It really is quite that simple. After all, this god of yours, who knowingly creates everybody, knows EXACTLY what is going to happen to everybody trillions of years in advance. Well of course that is only true if god is god."

"I agree with your first statement, in that because there is good, there has to be evil to contrast." Why would you think so? Evil is NOT a need. Evil is NOT a necessity. Evil is NOT a requirement. Only in the world of god is this true. Take away god and a lot of evil disappears. The Aborigines, nearly all of the native American Indian tribes until they were wiped out by the christian sweaty pig christian brethren, the Buddhists, Hindus, Gaia Mother Earth, etc etc etc they in no way practice no preach evil not anywhere close to what the god of the bible does. In fact its not even a close call.

"You seem to be angry in a god that you don't believe in;" I am have you read the sickening bible that people who have not read it believe in and don"t know anything about it? "furthermore, a god that Christ-followers do not believe in either." Yeah for that reason. More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason" George Carlin and he"s right. And christ that sneeze rag in which nobody can even prove either of them has ever existed, christ is the most fought after figure in the history of the human race. Go figure. "You're putting God in a box" I"m not the only one. There are millions that rightly do this. And they have read the bible. "the same way that "so-called Christians" do all the time." Yeah but atheists DO NOT go to war over atheism, not ever in any major war whereas god and religion go to war over their god all the fricken time. BIG HUGE MONUMENTAL DIFFERENCE.

"The belief in a higher creative being does not have to be characterized by a stagnant mindset." Well atheists do not believe in a higher creative being. Or any higher creative being at all.

"To elaborate, no one can understand God completely," Sure we can. god---doesn"t---exist. "but Christ-followers are able to infer what God is *not* via (H)is sure teachings." And yet again, nobody can even prove that this christ figure has ever existed.

"The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." And he laid his hands on them and went away." Such a stupid silly little verse. Oh I get it so children are supposed to suffer through intense horror and agony and pain just so that little nothing verse can be played out? Are you serious? And this is not about jesus, who was NOT the messiah to begin with but only a bump on the carpet as he broke god"s laws and lied about god to begin with and god never gave him the powers to be the messiah nor change his laws, not ever, and christ himself cannot proclaim himself to be the messiah, in other words christ was---not---the---messiah, but just a scab and a drab of yodeling grunge country opera sniveling happy hairy hard off for the armpit of sleaze in a bucket of bile.

"This doesn't speak to me as children-hating, does it to you?" Does it mention "god" Why no it doesn"t. I didn"t mention that snot nosed christ, which has nothing to do with this, you did.
Here now the verses. And there"s not enough space to open them up, but you can if you wish. But be warned, some of them are super sick and disgusting" god in his bible knowingly and truly hates children through numerous passages such as LM4: 9-11, MT 10:37, MT 2:16, JG 21:10, 2 SAM 12:11-14 which is truly sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31: 17-18, LV 26: 21-22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16, 2 KS 15:16, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, EX 12: 29-30, IS 13: 15-18, MT 2:16, (EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4, MT 10:21), JG 11: 30-33, PS 137: 8-9, 2 KS 6: 28-29, DT 21: 18-21, DT 32:25, DT 2: 32-34, DT 3: 3-6, JG 19: 24-29, EX 12:29, 2 HS 2: 23-24, LV 26:29, JM 11: 22-23, JM 19: 7-9, JM 51: 22-26, 2 KS 8: 9-15,LM 2: 20-22, RV 2: 18-23 only to name a few proves god hates and is 100% pure evil and 100% proves he cannot be involved with love.

"Who says God loves suffering?" If your god did not love suffering, pain, anguish, hate, grief, then as stated he would---not---create---it. Its that simple. But like I said you cannot even prove that this god of yours even exists. "The only things we can understand about God are the things he claims of himself, or the things claimed of him by "The Prophets." Wow is that totally 100% false.
Ezekiel 20:25-26 "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; 26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD." According to the secular web which if one of the fatal flaws of YOUR bible "God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)"
Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

1 Kings 22:23 "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

"There is still much debate on the topic you speak of; why did God create humans, the most barbaric and vicious creatures upon the face of the earth?" I never asked that question. What a stupid question. Here" what christians like you don"t get (don"t bother calling yourself agnostic because you are not, not even close) Your god could have easily created peace, love, harmony, care, kindness, etc etc etc AND KEPT IT. Nah this god of YOURS prefers evil, anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy all in which this god of YOURS has freely admitted to. Emotions like that are so befitting of a supreme deity - right? Oh and jealousy, yeah anger as disguised fear. So wonderful. And then this god of YOURS neatly passed down those emotions so man could learn to HATE with at least 1 billion dead all in the supposed "good" name of YOUR god on the battlefields alone. Great going god. Great going you for believing in this atrocity. Keep up the good work.

Christopher Hitchens also said "religion". And he"s right. Religion, doesn"t have to be organized, is the main source of hatred.

Oh really? You think there"s such a thing as a "true christ follower"? How wrong you are. Watch this video. - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?

There"s absolutely nothing you can say to circumvent what happened here, and continues to happen due to what YOUR god knowingly creates, IF you believe in him, and things like this allows to happen such as this incident. And it happens again and again and again and again. So if you believe in YOUR god, YOUR god loves EXTREME pain, violence and hate and evil. You cannot circumvent this. Your god is an A$$.

Tracie Harris: "Your question was regarding free will as an argument for allowing suffering. That's when you get into the problem of evil. Now the problem of evil as we all know is not an argument that demonstrates that no god exists or that god exists. What it demonstrates is that god is your god is an a$$. What she's telling you is she believes in a god, and I assume she worships this god? Its like is she 'happy' about her god?" Caller: "Oh oh yeah everything except for the old testament." Tracie "In other words what she is saying is 'I love this god who believes that the free will of the rapist is more important than the free will of the child being raped. That I think that its worth it to have a child be raped because I really really put a high value on a rapist's free will.""

"When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?" And she"ll say "yes." And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven?" So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick." Phil Ferguson

"Could god have made the world and not suffering? And if they say "no" then he"s not all powerful. If they say "yes", then why didn"t he? Its a constant thing. There"s multiple ways to come at it." Phil Ferguson

Thanx for being intelligent in your debate, unlike nearly all, it is highly appreciated. I hope you can keep it up.
Pease tc and have fun -Michael
CivilTube

Con

Thank you for your response, Michael! Although it is amusing and adds great depth to your arguments, I would appreciate that you waste little time on emotional rants and void vitriol such as this:

Michael:
"in other words christ was---not---the---messiah, but just a scab and a drab of yodeling grunge country opera sniveling happy hairy hard off for the armpit of sleaze in a bucket of bile."

This is a debate, not an argument between Elder Harrison and his uncle, Angry Gregtheist. (i hope that got a good laugh.)

Alright, first and foremost. Before I get into responses, I would like to clarify the teachings of the Bible, as well as the term "hermeneutics." They go hand-in-hand quite well with each other.

Hermeneutics is defined as "the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts." While this is a pretty bare-bones definition, I'd like to go into more detail on how it's used in *the Christian community that I was once, but am no longer part of. (FootNote 1, at the bottom of my argument.)

The term "interpretation" is key, because there is no definitive interpretation of "The Holy Bible" and there never will be. This causes discontent among the "so-called Body of Christ," creating the various denominations. (Pentecostal, Catholic, Mennonite, Baptist, etc.)

Thus, my points become moot and unclear due to my inability to elaborate effectively.
My point is that the concept of God is non-objective, no matter how adamant one may be that he's the "one truth."
When we talk about hermeneutics, we also have to talk about translation issues. The original languages of the scrolls that The Bible is translated from are dead. Because of this, it's incredibly hard for me to believe in any pastor or priest on any subject. That's an entire ordeal in and of itself. The concept of pastor or priest is long overdue for an abolition.

Alright! Responses, responses. Let's go down this rabbit hole together, shall we? I'll try to be holistic when responding to your sections, and would appreciate that you respond to my entire sections as well, instead of responding to the bits of them. They all serve a purpose within the entire section. I'm going to leave out your introduction, seeing as it doesn't strike me as part of your argument at all. If this is a problem, please let me know. I'm hoping to discuss things with you in a way that's suitable and appropriate.

Michael:
"I have never been a follower of that idiot abomination christ and I"m not stupid enough to, nor is any intelligent person either. Its really quite impossible. And there"s really no such a thing as being "christian"."

Although there's an absurd amount of hatred in your words, I see exactly where you're coming from. I understand and agree, to a point!

First off, calling the average Christ-follower "unintelligent" is a little unfair, isn't it? I believe in a decent amount of the teachings of Christ, although I can't say that I believe he was a real person, which may be relevant to what you say in later sections; however, I'll focus on this section for now.
One point you've made that I wholeheartedly agree with is this: There's no such thing as a Christian. It's profound and true; none can refute it logically. It's what's called a "misnomer." A "wrong or inaccurate name or designation."
But it goes beyond that, doesn't it? They contradict themselves constantly. Only Christ is Christ-like, yet they call themselves Christian. How oxymoronic. What is not being understood, in terms of the "Christian" perspective, is that they know they aren't anything like Christ. They simply strive to be. Even then, it's such a misconception that needs to be solved. You don't try to be like Christ; you try to understand why he is the way that he is; why he taught what he taught; what his purpose was. If you take out the "savior of mankind" BS, he's a philosophical figure whose purpose is to get disciples and pharisees alike to throw away convolution and to accept the simple truth. That truth is this; that no one can deserve, but anyone can give. This is the baseline of Christ's teachings that I follow, because it seems to be a purely beneficial mindset.

Michael:
""I agree with your first statement, in that because there is good, there has to be evil to contrast." Why would you think so? Evil is NOT a need. Evil is NOT a necessity. Evil is NOT a requirement. Only in the world of god is this true. Take away god and a lot of evil disappears. The Aborigines, nearly all of the native American Indian tribes until they were wiped out by the christian sweaty pig christian brethren, the Buddhists, Hindus, Gaia Mother Earth, etc etc etc they in no way practice no preach evil not anywhere close to what the god of the bible does. In fact its not even a close call."

Those sweaty christian pigs you're talking about don't follow the teachings of Christ. It's a stain upon history, just as the encampment and bombing of the Japanese is. We did that as a country, not as Christians.

Man, all those other religions seem pretty cool, huh? They are! They encourage a lot of what I believe in, and now that I mention it, I've been exploring all types of existential explanatory beliefs that put me at ease way more than the concept of God did. The difference between the average atheist and me is that I'm trying to understand the opposing perspective, rather than flat-out oppose it based on anecdote.

Let me clarify what is completely unclear though; I don't think Evil is "necessary," per se. What I meant is that if all is good, what is there to compare good to? If the world were void, what would void be compared to without matter or energy?
This is the basis of the Chinese philosophy called "Yin and Yang."

That is not to say that the discussion on that matter is closed. There is much to be explored; many conclusions to come to, just to be scratched away. Disavowed because of the incomprehensible complexity of it. Such is philosophy, wouldn't you say so?

Michael:
""You seem to be angry in a god that you don't believe in;" I am have you read the sickening bible that people who have not read it believe in and don"t know anything about it? "furthermore, a god that Christ-followers do not believe in either." Yeah for that reason. More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason" George Carlin and he"s right. And christ that sneeze rag in which nobody can even prove either of them has ever existed, christ is the most fought after figure in the history of the human race. Go figure. "You're putting God in a box" I"m not the only one. There are millions that rightly do this. And they have read the bible. "the same way that "so-called Christians" do all the time." Yeah but atheists DO NOT go to war over atheism, not ever in any major war whereas god and religion go to war over their god all the fricken time. BIG HUGE MONUMENTAL DIFFERENCE."

I apologize, the motive/purpose of this section is unclear; I'll need more elaboration to make any sort of response. Thank you for your patience.

Michael:
""The belief in a higher creative being does not have to be characterized by a stagnant mindset." Well atheists do not believe in a higher creative being. Or any higher creative being at all."

You're right! And I wasn't talking about atheists, necessarily; I was talking about Christians. To elaborate, I was talking about the concept atheists have ABOUT Christians. They can be know-it-alls, but that's the stagnation I'm talking about. To believe in self-omniscience is to oppose progression and logic. The Christians that I know have a sense of "I'm figuring it out" rather than "I know everything now!"
Ever heard of Simulation Theory? I think you'd find it funny/interesting/stupid. Anyways, moving on.

Michael:
""To elaborate, no one can understand God completely," Sure we can. god---doesn"t---exist. "but Christ-followers are able to infer what God is *not* via (H)is sure teachings." And yet again, nobody can even prove that this christ figure has ever existed."

I see what you're saying, but I don't see your point. All that you've done here is restated your own belief that God doesn't exist, which is debatable from the Christian perspective. Neither side knows enough, so I'm not saying that debate will ever be conclusive. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Michael:
"The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." And he laid his hands on them and went away." Such a stupid silly little verse. Oh I get it so children are supposed to suffer through intense horror and agony and pain just so that little nothing verse can be played out? Are you serious? And this is not about jesus, who was NOT the messiah to begin with but only a bump on the carpet as he broke god"s laws and lied about god to begin with and god never gave him the powers to be the messiah nor change his laws, not ever, and christ himself cannot proclaim himself to be the messiah."

This verse is not to showcase what happens to children and why, but moreso the fact that Jesus views children fondly; even when his disciples try to rebuke them. In an earlier chapter, Jesus tells his disciples that the greatest of heaven are those who humble themselves as children do. I'll refrain from telling my interpretation. Infer what you will.
Jesus is considered by Christians the physical manifestation of God; a part of what Christians call The Trinity (you've most likely heard of it.) To change the beliefs, or believe in one set of beliefs for a very diverse religious group is what I consider dogmatic. Christ was proclaimed as the messiah for doing miracles.

FN 1: I no longer attend church, I no longer pray, and I no longer believe in God as a defined entity or being. I also no longer believe in the "spiritual" aspect of Christianity. (angels, demons, spirit world, heaven, hell, etc.) I was raised Christian for 15 years
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Well my lingo, as you may have noticed is very satirical, and that"s not going to change for anybody. Its a well practiced written hand that comes from my noodle. Hell, over the past few days I"ve come up with about 150 things that both Donald Trump (easily the worst president of all time) and god have in common, in which case both are completely immoral. Now for the intelligent and edumacated, as indeed you are, it does back of extensively. For those who are not and invent excuses for something in which they know nothing about, and yet they pretend that they do for a subject that they claim to have prowess and knowledge upon and they really don"t, as is usually the case, its a slaughter of insults, or I ignore them.

"First off, calling the average Christ-follower "unintelligent" is a little unfair, isn't it?" Not at all because the christ of the bible in which no one has even been able to prove has ever existed, is a false prophet and offers false hope. Did you watch the video? Be that as it may, obviously not. So let"s get down to business. And I am going to present A LOT of videos at the tail end of this thus proving that there"s no proof for christ"s existence, much less that he was a true prophet.

Great family values statements "abandon your families, give away all your possessions, follow me:
Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
------------
Give away ALL of your possessions. Nobody who is SANE is ever going to do this!
Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."
"
Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Matthew 13: 22 "22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful."

Nobody, absolutely nobody is a christian whith christ barking those tepid rules that no sane person is going to follow.
"What is not being understood, in terms of the "Christian" perspective, is that they know they aren't anything like Christ." What imbecile would ---ever--- WANT to be? And no, you don"t follow christ. Do you "love your enemies"? No you don"t. What kind of stupid jerk would tell you to? Especially if they are ---always--- bad news? Or better yet -Putin?

"Those sweaty christian pigs you're talking about don't follow the teachings of Christ." Absolutely they did * Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
* Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."
* Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
* Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"
* 2 corinthians 2:14 "Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place."
* Revelation 14:6 " And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
There are MANY others.
christ and god are a stain on history. "It's a stain upon history, just as the encampment and bombing of the Japanese is. We did that as a country, not as Christians." How naive are you? Without christianity, how many wars do you think this country would have NOT become involved in? Now think about that. And to this day, when I was 6 years old I was asked by my best friend at that time and I still do not have an answer "Why should we become involved in other people"s wars?"

- jesus wasn"t jesus (Aron Ra)
- The True Core of the jesus Myth (Christopher Hitchens)
- Did jesus Exist?
- Why christianity is Unreasonable (Richard Carrier)
- Biggest Lie - The fourth gospel ("The first striking revision in the 4th gospel is that the ministry of jesus has ballooned out from from one year to three. The writers not only make a reference not only from one but to three distinct passover festivals. Now was this just a tradition that some early christians held to a three year ministry and others to a one year ministry? Can anyone honestly maintain that whole dialogues could be remembered word for word for many decades and yet believers have no common agreement whether these words were said during one year or during three years?") Um duh. Do you REALLY THINK jesus existed?
- The Gospel According to Carrier (Richard Carrier states jesus may have possibly existed, but scrap all the mythology)
- Proving the Historicity of Jesus? Tracie and David
- Stephanie Thomason vs Matt Dillahunty, or how not to debate an Atheist! (skip to the 7:00 mark!!!) Oh this one is good and Pro is the caller with his furry tongue.
- What did jesus do for you?

"Man, all those other religions seem pretty cool, huh?" No. no other religion is pretty cool. They are as fake and and fraudulent as christ. The world will never be able to have worldwide peace with religion in it. Of course other things need to happen as well.

Um no all religions are bad. All religions are created to explain the unexplained. And then through that its usually power then comes fear and then comes control. And make no mistake ALL religions are an unproved coping mechanism. Why would you want to believe in something that is unproved? ALL religions require faith, and faith cannot be proved. "Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty. You have no evidence for any religion. None.

"I've been exploring all types of existential explanatory beliefs"" Beliefs! Why don"t you explore something that can be pointed out to being factual that is tangible in comparison to something that nobody has ever proved that is only a "belief"? And the thing is, is there"s no concept of god. Did god ever reveal himself to anyone except for maybe 30 people, if that in the storybook bible, because that"s all it is and nothing more that printed words on a page? And let"s be honest here, no god of the bible would use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible. Why not believe in yourself rather than requiring an outside religion?

"What I meant is that if all is good, what is there to compare good to? EXACTLY! Why not give it a go because its---never---happened!!!!!! People have written about "utopia", what a bunch of prefabricated guesswork because nobody knows and in turn they would prefer a world with evil in it.

"I apologize, the motive/purpose of this section is unclear; I'll need more elaboration to make any sort of response." You had that response. There's a whole ton more. But here's only a small portion of it...

* Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan, all serial killers, all rapists, all tortures, all pedophiles, all sadomasochists etc etc etc combined. After all god knowingly created them which means that he is ultimately responsible for them. Its either that or god is not a god and lets them off the hook with nothing but a tap on the shoulder for their horrific, disgusting, repugnant crimes and simply god---does---not---care. Now here's some examples of god"s sickened, diseased, abominable atrocities for absolutely no reason at all... the great flood according to the bible (which never happened btw) so who knows what the body count was there? 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, 2 KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813, 2 CHR 14: 9-14 1,000,000!!! etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? Nope.

Can't believe how little space there is!
CivilTube

Con

I think what you're not getting, is that I'm not FOR God, necessarily. Not even FOR religion. I'm trying to explain to you that since you're not involved in said religion, it's absolutely unfair to make judgments upon the entire group of people who call themselves followers of Christ. Or even the entire group of people that claim to "belong to a religion."

May I remind you that your bio says that you belong to the religion of atheism. It may not technically be classified as a religion, but it sure as *Empirical Senses* functions as one. It functions as a belief system, as proven by your adamant behavior. "ThErE is nO wAy tO CIRcuMvENT tHis."

You have an interpretation of The Bible that people who ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT AND BELIEVE IN IT can't relate to; so what's the point? The end-all I'm trying to lead you to is that you're arguing for nothing of real value. From what I can tell, you've devoted your life to pedantically "disproving" the existence of a being that none of the believers are going to simply stop believing in. What is your goal in this discussion? Throw a bunch of videos and verses that have been stripped of all context and laugh in my face? I don't believe in the EXISTENCE, I simply believe that there's meaning and value that can be gleaned from the teachings of this book.

There was no requirement that I had to be Christian to debate you, but so what if I was? This would just be another hateful and worthless fight over an outcome that is the opposite of beneficial. The opposite of progressive. The opposite of what you say you're fighting for. What do you want, Michael?

-Efron
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Greetings!
From your bottom question, you asked "What do I want?" I want worldwide peace. It comes in packages of 5. In order for there to be worldwide peace, 5 things MUST happen and everything falls into these categories. 1. Get rid of religion. 2. Get rid of money/ wealth 3. Get rid of borders 4. Get rid of all guns and weapons of mass destruction. 5. Get rid of the media.

But you ARE for god. You ARE for religion. You hold onto them like fine wine. It is embodied with you. No offense. What do you think you are trying to say when you say "Man, all those other religions seem pretty cool, huh? They are! They encourage a lot of what I believe in, and now that I mention it, I've been exploring all types of existential explanatory beliefs that put me at ease way more than the concept of God did."

"it's absolutely unfair to make judgments upon the entire group of people who call themselves followers of Christ. Or even the entire group of people that claim to "belong to a religion." No its not. Everybody is born an atheist. No exceptions. None. In order to become involved with religion you must somehow become indoctrinated within it and taught its laws in which always rely on faith. Religion always gives people false hope because of this faith because nothing about faith has ever been proven to be true.
Here's a few statements on faith as well as a few videos.
- Another Appeal To Faith - The Atheist Experience
- Atheist Experience-Faith has no place for seeking truth

"Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, judaism, any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, the most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence?" Matt Dillahunty

"Faith is the reason people give when they don"t have evidence." Matt Dillahunty

"Faith can be very very dangerous, and deliberately to implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong." Richard Dawkins

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is the belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." Richard Dawkins

Also "More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason." George Carlin and he's 100% right.
So really, who "should" and or "wants" to believe in religion?

"May I remind you that your bio says that you belong to the religion of atheism." It does because there was no other way to state atheism under the way debate.prg is set up. Now atheism is not a religion. Here's a veryyy good video on what atheism is...
- Reasons for accepting atheism

Also the definition of atheism does not in any way classify atheism as a religion.

"You have an interpretation of The Bible that people who ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT AND BELIEVE IN IT can't relate to;" Have you gone up to them and asked them if they've read it? Most of them will of course say yeah sure sure. And their tells shine oh so bright that the answer is of course "no". And then you show them some of the verses in the bible (and I ran out of space to show you a lot more of the true hate spewing from the bible) and guess what? Nearly 100% of them go into flat out denial, can't believe what they are reading is true, or they invent some stupid mundane excuse for it, or they state god was justified in murdering whoever he wants (the worst excuse meaning they are as immoral as their unproved god is), or they don't believe anymore, or they skip it like nothing happened, etc etc etc. excuse after excuse after excuse. In my 43+ years of doing this and having talked with roughly 22,000, I've seen everything.

Children watching violence on tv, bad. Children in church seeing a lifelike grotesque statue of a crucified man, good. Makes sense? - David Blickstein

"When you start making excuses for atrocities you have removed yourself from ANY valid discussion on morals. When you say "yes the bible says you can own slaves but" well now you"re contradicting yourself because before I was asking if you thought the bible was accurately representing the mind of god, the will of god. You"ve got this conflicted mess of contradictions and you"ve found a way to rationalize them. You"ve gone and looked at them and said "boy that one really sounds bad, BUT that"s what Israel was doing that"s not what god was doing. So let me ask you this" do you believe that there"s an all knowing all powerful fun loving god who has an important message for humanity and he is so completely inept that his best attempts at communicating to people managed to convey the exact opposite message of what you think he meant? Now like are you the one who got it right? And all the people who authored the holy book and got you started that they managed to get it wrong? Is your god such a bumbling buffoon that he cannot state "thou shalt not own somebody as another human being?" or "please don"t rape the people and pillage the villages around you"" and he managed to communicate so poorly that it got written down as "Thou shalt be able to own other people as property and oh by the way go over there and kill everybody kill everything except for the young virgins." Its asinine. You cannot reconcile this." Matt Dillahunty

"The end-all I'm trying to lead you to is that you're arguing for nothing of real value." Real value? I just showed you what real value is. There's no need for all this violence and hate. And religion is especially ranked at the top of it. Always has been especially when this god guy could have started off with love, care, kindness, peace, harmony AND KEPT IT. No he chose evil, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy all in which he has freely admitted OF HIMSELF. Such is so befitting of a supreme deity - right in which is only a superior ego god complex? And I know I've stated the before in which christians DON'T GET. So they hand onto their evil, anger, rage, fury, vengeance, jealousy just like their god. WAY---TO---GO!!!! So DO NOT tell me I'm in any way wrong here.

"From what I can tell, you've devoted your life to pedantically "disproving" the existence of a being that none of the believers are going to simply stop believing in." I don't have to prove that this god guy doesn't exist. What is the title of this debate? There is no possible way god exists unless you believe in utter hate and evil: Timmy Kinner and god, oh yeah created Timmy to commit his vicious crimes knowing all too well that he would as well as the horrific suffering of the children he MURDERED.

"What is your goal in this discussion?" Easy. YOU and EVERYBODY else is better than this crappy god in which if you believe in him, you know nothing about. Get educated. Read the god damned bible. Oh and oh yeah, no god of the bible would be stupid enough to use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.

"Throw a bunch of videos and verses that have been stripped of all context and laugh in my face?" Oh really? Then why don't you watch the videos. And why don't you look up the verses to see just how cheecky and loving, and kind and considerate, and caring and nurturing smoochy and huggable this god guy of this is and you prove just how the verses are taken out of context. Of course you believe in god, otherwise you wouldn't defend him. And don't tell me or yourself otherwise.

Here's more verses are being taken out of "context". Do you even know what you are talking about? Tell you what, why don't you look them up, and spread the word that god---is----evil---and---hate? Peace is needed not this s--t.
* god hates gays in his bible and wants them stoned to death LV 20:13
* god hates anyone that blasphemes and wants to put you to death LV 24:16
* god hates anyone that does not believe in him in his bible 2 CHR 15: 12-13, ESPECIALLY if someone worships another god/ idols other than himself, thus wants to kill them DT 13: 9-10 and 17: 2-5
* god endorses slavery in his bible EX 21 the entire chapter especially 20-21 which is truly sick and disgusting, LV 25:39, LV 25:42, LV 25: 44-46, DT 15: 12-15, DT 23: 14-16, MT 18:25,
* god gets jealous in his bible EX 20: 3-5, EX 34:14, DT 4: 23-24, DT 32: 16-17, DT 5:9, DT 6:15, JH 24:19, PS 79:5, PS 78:58, 2 COR 1:2,
* god wants you to die in his bible if you break the sabbath EX 31:14, NU 15: 32-36
* god issues death warrants on those that curse at their parents (they are probably children) EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4
* god wants to put you to death in his bible if you commit adultery LV 20:10
* god has freely admitted in his bible numerous times that he IS evil IS 45:7, 2 SAM 12: 11-14 sick and disgusting, EX 32:14, 1 KS 1 22: 22-23, 2 CR 18:22, JM 19:3, JM 19:15, JM 23:12, AM 3:6, DT 30:15, 2 KS 22:16, JU 9:23, PV 15:3
* god in his bible knowingly and truly hates children through numerous passages such as LM4: 9-11, MT 10:37, MT 2:16, JG 21:10, 2 SAM 12:11-14 which is truly sick and disgusting, DT 2:34, NU 31: 17-18, LV 26: 21-22, 1 SAM 15:3, HS 13:16, 2 KS 15:16, EZ 9: 5-7, HS 9: 11-16, EX 12: 29-30, IS 13: 15-18, MT 2:16, (EX 21:17, LV 20:9, MK 7:10, MT 15:4, MT 10:21), JG 11: 30-33, PS 137: 8-9, 2 KS 6: 28-29, DT 21: 18-21, DT 32:25, DT 2: 32-34, DT 3: 3-6, JG 19: 24-29, EX 12:29, 2 HS 2: 23-24, LV 26:29, JM 11: 22-23, JM 19: 7-9, JM 51: 22-26, 2 KS 8: 9-15,LM 2: 20-22, RV 2: 18-23

The only thing that I hate in this world is god, guns and Donald Trump, easily the worst president of all time. I am at perfect peace with everything else.

Please ---always--- tc and have fun -Michael
CivilTube

Con

You're not listening, nor do you care to try to understand. You could turn that argument against me if you wanted to, but I'm amazed at how unwilling you are to take what I'm saying at face value.
This is exhausting; I forfeit.
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@dsjpk5 - Copying and pasting what I state, what good is that?

Watch One Strange Rock. I'm sure you will be impressed. You do not have to have Netflix or Amazon Prime to watch it.
Do you get Netflix or Amazon Prime?
OK no foreign films.
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
dsjpk5 - There's no "voting" to this.

Apparently there is.

It is what it is. Sick, diseased and disgusting. And if you believe in god, only shows his utter evil, hate and contempt for children especially. But we already knew that.

Changing the subject entirely do you get The National Geographic Channel? If so, I cannot recommend enough the masterpiece series One Strange Rock. If not one of the great documentary series ever made, its damn close. Its very spiritual, makes you feel like you belong, takes you to places you"ve never been, knows that life is all inner connected, knows that earth is OUR home, its told from 8 astronauts so they have a completely unique way of stating their ideals of wonder and viewing Mother Earth is motion - algae blooms, dust storms over the oceans which are crucial for life in the Amazon etc etc etc" and its produced by Darren Aronofsky who directed such masterpieces as Pi, The Fountain and Black Swan. WATCH IT. Now of you do not get the National Geographic Channel go to www.fox.com and click on the button "shows" and then you will see there is a link to National Geographic.

Do you get Netflix or Amazon Prime? Or are you willing to watch

I'm not a fan if foreign films. Thanks for the offer, however.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@dsjpk5 - There's no "voting" to this. It is what it is. Sick, diseased and disgusting. And if you believe in god, only shows his utter evil, hate and contempt for children especially. But we already knew that.

Changing the subject entirely do you get The National Geographic Channel? If so, I cannot recommend enough the masterpiece series One Strange Rock. If not one of the great documentary series ever made, its damn close. Its very spiritual, makes you feel like you belong, takes you to places you"ve never been, knows that life is all inner connected, knows that earth is OUR home, its told from 8 astronauts so they have a completely unique way of stating their ideals of wonder and viewing Mother Earth is motion - algae blooms, dust storms over the oceans which are crucial for life in the Amazon etc etc etc" and its produced by Darren Aronofsky who directed such masterpieces as Pi, The Fountain and Black Swan. WATCH IT. Now of you do not get the National Geographic Channel go to www.fox.com and click on the button "shows" and then you will see there is a link to National Geographic.

Do you get Netflix or Amazon Prime? Or are you willing to watch some foreign films? Youtube has quite a batch of great films.
Posted by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
Before I begin, I have to give a hearty "thank you" to backwards for allowing me to vote on this debate. A very compassionate act to be sure. I really struggled with my vote. Both sides did a marvelous job. It was a difficult choice!!
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Thanks for proving to me that deep in the underbelly of religion it is even more evil than most presume, not me. Not to those who know better, to those who have studied it and not who have pretended to and yet defend it without knowing the consequences of it. And with people like you that do nothing, its gaping maw will grow ever wider.
Posted by CivilTube 3 years ago
CivilTube
Yo, thanks for telling me what I believe in, super helpful considering you have no idea who I am or what I stand for, and have no interest in understanding the concepts I'm trying to explain! Man, who knew I believed in God as a definitive entity/being? You learn something new every day from people who know absolutely everything about you after one debate.
Posted by AKMath 3 years ago
AKMath
If you will so kindly let me accept this debate it would be an honor Backwardseden. I realize how horrible and immoral my previous arguments were. I fully take back things I have said such as, it's okay if God kills women and children, and not fully disproving your arguments. I also apologize for not watching all and only one of your videos given in the argument. With all that said, I've finally gotten my sh*t straight, and my deepest apologies. I can totally understand if you don't want to debate me.

Thanks,
AKmath :(

From your another one of your debates, I wish to accept.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
I run out of characters constantly CONSTANTLY. Don't you HATE that? Right now I am composing your argument. I hope I don't. But I wouldn't be surprised. debate.org needs to knock it off with that dung goop.
Posted by CivilTube 3 years ago
CivilTube
I apologize for the lack of completion on RD2, I ran out of characters completely.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
Sorry I posted the same quotes from the same people from RD1 to RD2. Obviously there's others.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
backwardsedenCivilTubeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro called Con "naive" in round three. This is poor conduct.

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