The Instigator
kaizo
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Athias
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Transgenderism is a mental illness

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/22/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,419 times Debate No: 119999
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (47)
Votes (0)

 

kaizo

Pro

Transgenderism is a mental illness and telling those individuals that they are indeed what they claim to be is only making matter worse.
Athias

Con

When using the term illness, You're implicating a pathological condition which produces symptoms. Naturally, This begs the question: what are the symptoms of Transgenderism? What evidence do you have that these symptoms are connected to Transgenderism? Are the results of your/anyone's findings reproducible in each case? What are your controls?
Debate Round No. 1
kaizo

Pro

Gender dysphoria or transgenderism (however you may want to refer to it) is a condition where a person believes that their sex and gender do not match. Which is outright delusional, When men and women claim to be the opposite genders this contradicts very basic human biology which classifies humans as being either male or female with very distinct physical and mental differences.
Athias

Con

So belief is a symptom of an illness? Once again, Where's your evidence? What are your controls? And are these findings reproducible in each case?
Debate Round No. 2
kaizo

Pro

the deviation from the standard which existed throughout human history and still occurring within all living creatures which have different genders requires you to prove that this deviation is healthy and acceptable. But I would like to ask a question, If transgenderism is perfectly normal, Then what explains the stupidly high suicide rate of 40%? Which by the way, Doesn"t get significantly better after Sex reassignment surgery. Also, If hopping from gender to another fine, Does that suggest that there are more than two genders? If yes, How many are there and are they created and legislated based on how people feel?
Athias

Con

Rebuttal

"The deviation from the standard which existed throughout human history and still occurring within all living creatures which have different genders requires you to prove that this deviation is healthy and acceptable. "

No, I'm required to refute your assertion that Transgenderism is an illness. I don't have to prove health or acceptability.

"But I would like to ask a question, If transgenderism is perfectly normal, Then what explains the stupidly high suicide rate of 40%? "

Irrelevant. We are not discussing "normalcy. " We are discussing illness. Suicide is not a symptom of belief; suicide is a product of action, Just like homicide.

"Also, If hopping from gender to another fine, Does that suggest that there are more than two genders? If yes, How many are there and are they created and legislated based on how people feel? "

You are asking questions that have nothing to do with the subject. It is your onus to provide substance to your claim, "Transgenderism is a mental illness. " Now if this assertion is based on the premise, "believing in something, Which I allege to be factually incorrect, Makes one mentally ill, " then I stress you once more to answer the questions I've been asking since Round 1: What evidence do you have that these symptoms are connected to Transgenderism? Are the results of your/anyone's findings reproducible in each case? What are your controls?
Debate Round No. 3
kaizo

Pro

The proof that a 60-year-old is not a 6 year old is that he/she lived for 60 years, Likewise, The proof that someone born a male will die a male is that he only has XY chromosomes except for a few X chromosomes (biology 101, 1905). Therefore, By defining a mental illness as a behavioral or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment of personal functioning, It is clear that people who believe that they are the opposite sex classify as mentally ill given that 40% of trans people have attempted suicide and more than half were diagnosed with depression at some point in their lives (American foundation of suicide prevention, 2014).
Athias

Con

Rebuttal #1

"The proof that a 60-year-old is not a 6 year old is that he/she lived for 60 years, Likewise, The proof that someone born a male will die a male is that he only has XY chromosomes except for a few X chromosomes (biology 101, 1905). "

Once again, This is irrelevant. We are not arguing the veracity of any transgender claim. We are arguing whether transgenderism is a mental illness. Unless you wish to propose that believing in something, Its veracity notwithstanding, Is a sign of (mental) illness, We can dispense with this line of argument.

Rebuttal #2

"Therefore, By defining a mental illness as a behavioral or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment of personal functioning, "

It is too late to stipulate a definition, Especially after giving me leeway to give description to illness since the first round. Not to mention, It's already the fourth round. Nevertheless, I will entertain it and convey that not only does transgenderism not meet the pathological standard I proposed, But also it doesn't even meet the description you stipulated. And I will do it in part using the study you cited.

According to Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults, A study conducted by the Williams Institute of Law and the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, There is NOT a 40% suicide rate. There's a 41% attempted suicide rate among respondents (Rodgers & Hermann, 2014, P. 2) In addition to that, The study states, "the NTDS questionnaire included only a single item about suicidal behavior that asked, 'Have you ever attempted suicide? '. . . Researchers have found that using this question alone in surveys can inflate the percentage of affirmative responses, Since some respondents may use it to communicate self-harm behavior that is not a 'suicide attempt, ' such as seriously considering suicide, Planning for suicide, Or engaging in self-harm behavior without the intent to die. "(Rodgers & Hermann, 2014, P. 3) Furthermore, And most notable, The study states that the survey they conducted "did not directly explore mental health status and history, Which have been identified as important risk factors for both attempted and completed suicide in the general population. "

The study you cited does not substantiate your argument. It is a multivariate analysis which explores age, Race, Sex, Family relationships, Education, Workforce participation, Medical conditions, Disability, Etc. Incidence of suicide attempts were disparate. One would presume that if Transgenderism was controlled for as the cause for suicide (or attempted suicide) the results would be consistently reproducible. They are not according to the study you cited. " Respondents who indicated 'white' race/ethnicity had the lowest prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts at 38 percent, While American Indians and Alaska Natives reported the highest at 56 percent. "(Rodgers & Hermann, 2014, P. 6) What about this: "Generally, Those with greater educational achievement were less likely to report having attempted suicide, With 31 percent of respondents with a graduate degree, Compared to 49 percent of those with a high school diploma, Reporting a lifetime suicide attempt. "(Rodgers & Hermann, 2014, P. 6) How would you explain the substantial disparities in incidence when these factors are considered since as you claim, Transgenderism is the "mental illness" which produces the symptom of suicide?

Rebuttal #3

The association of "illness" to psychological (mental) misbehavior was heavily influenced by the nineteenth century neurologist, Jean-Martin Charcot, Who aimed to prove that "hysteria" had a neuropathological basis (The Myth of Mental Illness by Thomas Szasz. ) This of course has since been discredited given the insufficiency in scientific explanations for the behavior involved with hysteria. However, There was a never a dissociation of this behavior from that which was conventionally understood as illness; instead "mental illness" became part of the psychiatric lexicon despite lacking evidence which informs pathology. There has yet to be any biochemical, Genetic or neurological basis for any "mental illness. " According to Against Biologic Chemistry, Dr. David Kaiser states, ""modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness" Patients [have] been diagnosed with "chemical imbalances" despite the fact that no test exists to support such a claim, And"there is no real conception of what a correct chemical balance would look like. "

That which my opponent calls "mental illness" is in fact misbehavior (disorders) which are catalogued using a classification system determined by the arbitration of members of the American Psychiatric Association. Dr Tana Dineen writes in Manufacturing Victims, "The Psychology Industry relies on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) of the American Psychiatric Association for many of the names and labels it uses. The original 1954 version served to crystallize the nineteenth-century belief that mental illnesses were biologically based and similar to physical diseases. But unlike medical diagnoses that convey a probable cause, Appropriate treatment and likely prognosis, the disorders listed in DSM-IV are terms arrived at through peer consensus. . . " This would implicate that the diagnoses of these behaviors are not determined by pathological methods (e. G. Lab work, Identifying the pathogen, Analyzing its behavior, Etc. ) but using fallacious reasoning (i. E. argumentum ad populum. )

Medicine has always focused on the hard sciences: biochemistry, Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology, Microbiology, Etc. By allowing a soft science like psychology to invade medicine under the pseudonym, Psychiatry, Psychiatrists have been able to disguise abstract concepts as scientific findings. My opponent cannot relate transgenderism to illness because he cannot substantiate a pathological basis, Let alone any pathological basis for a mental illness. He can not even substantiate his own assertion that suicide is a symptom of transgenderism, Being contradicted by the very citation to which he alluded.

On to closing arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
kaizo

Pro

kaizo forfeited this round.
Athias

Con

My opponent has forfeited the fifth, And final round.

Before I continue with my closing arguments, I must correct a mistake I made in Round 4. When I made reference to psychiatrist Dr. David Kaiser, His statements were cited from Against Biologic Psychiatry not Against Biologic Chemistry. (The latter would make no sense. ) My apologies.

Closing Arguments

1. My opponent asserted that transgenderism was a mental illness. When pressed to provide substance to his assertion of illness, A pathological condition which produces symptoms, He did not.

2. My opponent then tried to associate illness to transgenderism by referencing an unsubstantiated correlation between transgenderism and a 40% suicide rate. Not only did my opponent fail to convey how suicide was a symptom of illness, But his reference to the aforementioned correlation was incorrect. According to the source he referenced himself, There was a 41% attempted suicide rate that varied substantially when other factors were taken into account (i. E. Age, Sex, Race, Family relationships, Education, Workforce participation, Medical conditions, Disability, Etc. ) If transgenderism was isolated as the cause for suicide attempts, Then the results would be consistently reproducible even with the other factors considered.

3. My opponent attempted to veer the debate's focus from his assertion of illness to whether the beliefs of transgenders were verifiable. When I then asked if he was using belief, Its veracity notwithstanding, As a premise to argue illness, He attempted to shift the burden he bore to substantiate illness on to me to substantiate health.

4. In Round 4, I conveyed that the association of illness to mental misbehavior was a product of the 19th century neurolgist, Jean-Martin Charcot's attempt to prove hysteria was in fact a physical disease with a neuropathological basis. Despite being discredited, "mental illness" became a part of the the psychiatric lexicon. I also made references to statements by psychiatrists and psychologists observing their own industry which included Dr. Thomas Szasz, Dr. David Kaiser, And Dr. Tana Dineen. Not only has there yet to be any biochemical, Neurological, Pathological, Or genetic basis which inform these "mental illnesses, " but also these misbehaviors are catalogued and determined using a classification system, The DSM, Subjected to the arbitration of members of the American Psychiatric Association--the arbitration of which operates on the ad populum logical fallacy.


My opponent failed to meet his onus and demonstrate that transgenderism was in fact an illness, Let alone a "mental" one. I've met my onus by demonstrating that transgenderism does not meet not only my offered description of illness but also his description. And I used, In part, His own citation in addition to my own.

I'd like to thank my opponent for debating this subject with me, As well as the audience and commentators who participated. Vote well.
Debate Round No. 5
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Seleucus 3 years ago
Seleucus
@Jppg001

You said: "My point is that as transgenderism is a mental disorder, People shouldn't be forced to accept the transgender's delusions. Obviously transgender people should be respected, But no told that they are right when they are not. "

I would amend the passage to read " *If* transgenderism is a mental disorder. . . " but otherwise your point is well said and I agree.
Posted by Jppg001 3 years ago
Jppg001
@Athias: Looks like someone has run out of arguments
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
@Jppg001: I've entertained your comments for far too long. Have nice day, Sir.
Posted by Jppg001 3 years ago
Jppg001
@Athias: So neither of those disorder which are heavily medicated are actually disorders? . Ur a joke
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
@Jppg001: It's not "my thinking"; it's simply that which is. And neither of those are diseases nor illnesses. Or at the very least, Information to that effect has yet to be discovered.
Posted by Jppg001 3 years ago
Jppg001
@Athias: I just trying to understand what, In your thinking, Would make those two diseases mental illnesses
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
I'm not interested in veering off subject and indulging tangents. Can you relate your question to transgenderism?
Posted by Jppg001 3 years ago
Jppg001
@Athias: Is being bipolar or schizophrenic having a mental illness? If it is tell me why.
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
@szexiv: I've stated as much as I've needed to state. At this point, It would be redundant.

@Jppg001: Once again, The subject of the debate is not the veracity of a transgender claim. It's over the assertion, "Transgenderism is a mental illness. " Thus far, Neither my opponent nor anyone here in the comments section has yet to substantiate that Transgenderism is an illness, Let alone a "mental" one. Instead you argue tangents.
Posted by Jppg001 3 years ago
Jppg001
@Seleucus Regarding someone as mentally ill doesn't mean to be hostile to them, Or are you rude to a person because they suffer from schizophrenia? No you are not. My point is that as transgenderism is a mental disorder, People shouldn't be forced to accept the transgender's delusions. Obviously transgender people should be respected, But no told that they are right when they are not.
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