The Instigator
Jesshua
Pro (for)
The Contender
brodiescott76
Con (against)

Veganism

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Debate Round Forfeited
Jesshua has forfeited round #3.
Our system has not yet updated this debate. Please check back in a few minutes for more options.
Time Remaining
00days00hours00minutes00seconds
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/27/2021 Category: Health
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 460 times Debate No: 127712
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

Jesshua

Pro

Everyone probably has heard about veganism once or twice now. With the incoming years, It has started to gain some slight popularity. Personally, I think veganism is a great option for many humans around the world if the conditions prove it successful. Plus, We all know that the meat industries produce lots of greenhouse emissions into the atmosphere, Rivers, Oceans, Soil, Etc.

Health-wise, It gets very tricky. Veganism is still relatively new to science and are still exploring ways of how your body reacts to a vegan diet. The positive thing is, On most individuals veganism has a great impact on their lives in a beneficial way that stimulates health and lowers the chance of many disease that are unfortunately killing thousands of people daily like heart diseases, Various types of cancers, Diabetes, Harmful cholesterol, E. Coli, Salmonella, You name it.
But as we know, Every diet can have it's pro's and it's cons if not planned well according to the person's needs. People tend to say we are protein-deficient, We lack amino-acids, "Where do you get your B12? ", And even, "You're going to die soon! "
Look at this, It is possible to survive on a vegan diet while remaining healthy. I won't go into much detail about the nutrition, Although you can still get protein from legumes, Grains, Quinoa, Tofu, And many others. Getting your vitamins looks harder than it seems, For example I get my daily-intake of vitamin b12 with just tofu, Soy-meat and plant milks! (I don't eat pills because I don't have to at the moment, Or ever, Who knows lol. )

Another important factor about "being natural" and veganism, When you eat a pill, That doesn't make it unnatural because they usually have concentrated plant protein and vitamins. Plus, Most of your food is probably modified in one shape or form unless you eat GMO-Free food all the time. Furthermore, Plant protein has been decreasing in the past decades because of weakened modifications, And the meat industries taking over and polluting more CO2 and other chemicals which significantly alter the chemistry of them. We made so many things unnatural already, So where would we be without them, Progressing is a good idea as long as it's beneficial for organisms. There's nothing wrong with that if you're thriving. :)

Hmm? What about the food-chain? It's been said for decades that we are always at the top and that there is always a specific level for every y sentient organism. You might be surprised that this is only partially true because we can thrive without the consumption of sentient organisms. This also produces a popular excuse of superiority of how we on top of every other animal on Earth. Yeah, Not today.

When animals get eaten alive, They usually have many hormones and adrenaline pushed to their most sensitive organs when there skin might be teared, Etc. Unfortunately, It's know that it doesn't numb all the pain completely but it does last a few minutes before they loose enough blood to be dead and feel nothing anymore. This is absolutely not a justification that we should continue hunting or torturing animals just because a similar thing happens in *nature. If we can, Why not reduce animal suffering if MANY of us have the option to do so? Don't let your brain catch you by the taste ;).

But what about producing livestock in an 'ethical' and 'sustainable' manner. First of all, It will NEVER be ethical when killing an organism if it had the chance to survive and if there was another alternative. Sustainability doesn't just come with clean energy sources, But with animal welfare too to keep it thriving. Consuming it for food is not sustainable for many, Unless they are in a rare situation that they can only consume that certain product for the moment.

Let's face it, Probably no one likes prolonged suffering. But what about fake meat? It doesn't involve animal suffering right? Not necessarily, A real chicken or cow for example is still needed and have to be modified because without a doubt, Humans just want to eat meat. Like I mentioned earlier, A great population can survive and thrive on a vegan diet.

*PS: Please don't shame people that consume animals, I know, It might make you feel mad but that's not how we solve things like in that Youtube video where they were kicking and throwing stuff at someone that was eating meat.

There is so much more I would like to discuss with you all but I just want to see how this goes, And what arguments I can improve on while looking at different perspectives and facts.

Thanks!
(Please use respectful language whenever possible :D)
brodiescott76

Con

Hello my friend.

I think your argument is well presented. However I would say it seems to be more of an argument against factory farming as opposed to eating animals. The climate change argument, "being natural" argument, Producing livestock argument and prolonged suffering argument can all be attributed to food processing facilities that make vegan food and ignored when ethically hunting.

So if its ok with you, Id like to focus on two other points you brought up. If there are any other points youd like to zero in on I have no problems with that.

1. Why not reduce animal suffering if many of us have the option to do so?

I will argue from a position of workplace experience. Im the senior exterminator for my companys pest greenhouse sector, Operating in the greenhouse capital of North America. I will make the argument that just as much of not more animal suffering and death goes into the growing and processing of vegetables as does from the meat industry. Not only that, But the humane regulations that exist for pasturized animals do not exist for animals classified as pests. As greenhosues are currently required (and would be far more required if everyone went "vegan" overnight) I would argue that net animal death and suffering would increase.

2. A great population can survive on a vegan diet.

I see this as a kind of moralistic fallacy. But moreover it assumes that the free choice of individuals should be subject to the will of another group. You may ask "Why do you feel like you need to eat meat". To which id respond "Why do you feel entitled to have an opinion on what I should eat". (I don't mean that to be rude, Just laying out my argument.

I look forward to this talk.
Debate Round No. 1
Jesshua

Pro

Hi! Thanks for responding, I really appreciate your points and feedback.

"Why not reduce animal suffering if many of us have the option to do so? "
Yes, I forgot to mention the workplace and people that work industries that can be affected by vegans. I clearly see your point, Especially as a senior exterminator. Unfortunately it is true that while harvesting crops and other types of vegetables can contribute to many insect deaths because of pesticides used. I also see how that number could potentially increase if more people went vegan because the demand would surge more. What I would add to this is that the current existing technology doesn't allow us to use pesticides that don't harm animals and while there are some that already do that, It's not in widespread adoption. So, In the meantime, We can still try to consume less animals and maybe a plant-based day once a week. Yes, There might be deaths one way or the other, Although our ultimate goal is to minimize suffering for organisms as much as possible. Like you said, If many people went vegan overnight, Our system would not be ready for it, And would result in a major issue that it currently stands at.

"A great population can survive on a vegan diet. "
While this is true, Not everyone can convert to veganism immediately because of their situation and if they want to do it. It also gets really complicated when you try to get someone away from what they like, Although at the expense of other lives taken away. Just imagine if someone liked eating cats and dogs for example, We would feel entitled to that person to change his 'diet' because it's affecting pets we like and care about. If that were to be the case in real life, It would be considered murder, If that were to be considered a pig, It would only be considered as food. That is a great disparity right there. And yes, Both animals feel and react to pain.

(My main point is that we can reduce some part of animal suffering right now, But a great proportion of it will have to continue with gradual change. ) I also encourage you and others to explore some vegans foods that you like and make you healthy overall. A slight amount of more insect could potentially die, But you'll be ready when the time comes for more vegan and especially REAL sustainable and cruelty-free alternatives. It might take a few years or decades, But it's essential to find as solution to feed 8 billion and counting mouths with the most beneficial solutions. (Also meat factories contribute more CO2 than plant factories which just contributes to climate change as well. )

There's not one golden key yet but your understanding is important to keep thriving!
P. S: Don't pressure yourself if you want to eat more plant-based foods, Make it you who decides to change. ;)
brodiescott76

Con

Hello again,

I will preface this by saying I have no intention of going vegan. If it were only up to me, My diet would consist only of pork, Venison, Chicken, Fish and beef. And I disagree with the premise that eating less or no meat is in any way a morally superior diet. If I was a vegan, But went to work and killed rodents by the thousand so people could eat food saftey certified cucumbers I don't see that as a moral triumph. Nor do I see people buying those same vegetables claiming to be vegan as morally superior.

To our first point. Its not just insects were talking about. Its rodents, Birds, Small mammals and amphibians. Personally the amount of rodents ive killed this year is in the hundreds of thousands. Birds, Small mammals probably in the low hundreds. For argument sake wpukd it be safe to assume the life of a mouse would be equal to that of a moose? If so, Id ask the question. What is more moral. Shooting a moose ending its life in a matter of seconds or minutes in the wild and living off the meat for a year. Or poisoning a mouse so that it bleeds from its mouth and anus for four days until it dies to keep it away from your vegetables? Also in which circumstance does the animal suffer less?

I don't consider eating cats and dogs murder. Its weird because in western culture we view them as a kind of quasi sacred animal. But its not murder. But more importantly why should a population decide to survive on a vegan diet?

To your main point. I don't see that we can reduce some part of animal suffering by going vegan. The animals that are being killed are just smaller. Instead of killing 1000 cows to feed a town for a year youre killing 1000000 rodents.

In my opinion the best course of action to reduce animal suffering is to encpurage individual self sustainability. Educate people about hunting, Fishing and growing their own crop and canning. This eliminates dependance on factory farms which (be they meat processing plants, Greenhouses, Canneries) kill more animals in one day then a hunter will in a lifetime.
Debate Round No. 2
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
This round has not been posted yet.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Surgeon 1 month ago
Surgeon
Body - how so?
Mind - how so?
Environment - how so?

This just seems to be rhetoric to me.

Given that a significant portion of human DNA is mainly from Nomadic tribes living in colder and dryer climates, That lived off meat, Fish etc (especially in winter) for many 10's of thousands of years (including those that lived in near ice age conditions). That was the human environment for a LOT longer than our current Crop farming (c. 10k years ago). It is true that those tribes from warmer and wetter cliamtes had more exposure to all year round vegetation and have a higher tolerance to plant toxicity. But all humans for all of human existence (at least 0. 5 million years, But probably longer) have always had a significant portion of animal based proteins in their diet. It is therefore hard to imagine how we are metabolically well suited to a vegan diet. The evolutionary adaptations needed to thrive as a vegan are not possible in this time window.

Ofc as omnivores we can survive not eating meat, But the plain fact of the matter is that the vast majority of humans both survive and thrive on a rudimentary diet of meat and fish, Without the need for plant based sustanance. In small quantities it is possible to add in some nuts, Seeds and vegetation (depending on the mix of the aforementioned DNA inheritance one has).

As for the environment I only ever hear a one-sided argument of the costs of farming animals (methane), But never the consequence (cost) of converting that to vegan suitable products. There are no free lunches, Just trade offs. Vegetation requires high levels of freely available CO2 to grow (possibly higher than today), Land and a lot of fresh water. How would reducing animal farming trade-off?

Finally there is a rather unsavoury element to Vegan activism. Acting superior, Posing on a moral high ground, Chiding others for eating meat. All this and they have no objective moral framework to base it on, Just emotions and slogans.
Posted by Jesshua 2 months ago
Jesshua
I completely agree! @sjoss
Posted by sjoss 2 months ago
sjoss
dopting a vegan diet is one of the best things one can do for their body, Mind and the environment. But for those of us who aren"t ready to pull the plug, Making manageable changes is a great place to start. Perfectionism shouldn"t stand in the way of improvement.
This debate has 4 more rounds before the voting begins. If you want to receive email updates for this debate, click the Add to My Favorites link at the top of the page.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.