The Instigator
TouchtheSky
Pro (for)
The Contender
judaism
Con (against)

Was Jesus Christ the Son of God?

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Debate Round Forfeited
TouchtheSky has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/6/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 870 times Debate No: 113586
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (17)
Votes (0)

 

TouchtheSky

Pro

Judaism, I'd like to personally apologize for not being able to respond to your previous debate. I've read some of your debates, and I know that in the past, you have been treated very unkindly by Christians, and I apologize for that. I hope you can give me another chance. I respect your beliefs and hope that I can be considerate and polite in sharing my faith. However, in the heat of the moment, I often tend to get very passionate and my sharp words have caused hurt feelings in the past. I'd like to apologize ahead of time in case I end up sounding a little too strong.

I've never really talked to many Jews before, and I haven't really heard your side of the story. I know that much of the Bible we read is the same, but we have extremely different interpretations of the Old Testament when we try to fit it into the New Testament. I hope that I can be open-minded and willing to hear your side of the story.
judaism

Con

Dear TouchtheSky,

Thank you for again inventing me to debate you on perhaps the biggest issue dividing Christians and Jews today. Again, I hope it can be polite and fair, and that all sides will take away something of great value from the other side. I also apologize for accepting late, I was engrossed with work at collage, I am very sorry for the wait.

If I may copy and paste from our last attempt:

Why would anyone who's ever read the Hebrew Bible, obviously miss the vital prophecies which so clearly point to Jesus? How could Jewish congregations have been blinded to the truth behind such paramount passages as Isaiah 53, Daniel 9, and Psalm 22? What are the rabbis hiding from us?

The truth is, they're not hiding anything, and it is my belief that if you are open-minded enough to hear our side, our story, our interpretation of Scripture, in the course of this friendly debate, it will change your life forever.

For an appetizer, I offer you two original works of mine:

Can G-d Become Man? The Divinity of Jesus on Trial

https://docs.google.com...

Sin and Atonement: The Divide Between Christians and Jews

https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 1
TouchtheSky

Pro

I'd like to thank you so much for giving me those documents- each of them is rich with facts and evidence for your beliefs. I'm going to have a hard time addressing each of them, as I only have three days and you had this prepared ahead of time, so my arguments are going to be a lot more choppy and less fancy in terms of pictures, footnotes, and the like. I hope, however, that I can get my point across efficiently. Because your arguments will take far more than 10,000 characters to discuss, I too will be using the format of a google document.

EDIT: I'm unfortunately running out of time, and I've been extremely busy this past couple of days. With your permission, I'd like to start by simply discussing the first article you sent, dealing specifically with Jesus' divinity. If you'd like, we can debate the other article on sin and atonement at another point in time.

Without further ado, here is the link to the document:

https://docs.google.com...
judaism

Con

Shalom TouchtheSky,

Shabbat is about to start, I couldn't finish my response in time, please forgive me. I am so sorry to have to forfeit this round, and I promise you, I will answer as soon as I can.

For the next round, if you want, you can go ahead and post your critique to my Sin and Atonement paper.

Again, I am so sorry to have to do this. I won't be able to respond till after Saturday night. Again, thank you for all the kind words.
Debate Round No. 2
TouchtheSky

Pro

Alright, I completely understand and respect your beliefs. I will not pressure you in any way, and as you suggested, I'll get started on your second paper, on sin and atonement. To make it easier to follow, I'll write my critique on the same paper I previously used and sent you the link to.
judaism

Con

TouchtheSky,

I didn't have time to answer your remarks on sin and atonement, Daniel 9, or Isaiah 53.

But I did on Jesus not being G-d. The link is below:

https://docs.google.com...
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
TouchtheSky,

Just wondering if you're fully finished with your arguments or not.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
We all use google docs. Cheating! Loving it! :)
Posted by asta 3 years ago
asta
I'll be surprised if both sides even wrote their whole argument.
Posted by asta 3 years ago
asta
Is it me or are both sides just using a document to hack the 10,000 character maximum character limit?
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
"John 8:59 refers to Jesus leaving when the people try to advocate stoning him-" Bunk a totally alien foreign idea. Only the small or great Sanhedrin had a judicial mandate to try Capital Crimes cases. A mob that's a clear Tora violation. Stoning entailed having a bound naked man pushed face down a 3 storey scaffold unto a sharp boulder below. The foreign alien book of john/prostitute was written in a foreign country.

'we are damned to hell.' This Xtian theology has no source in T'NaCH literature. "he fulfilled the old law" Utter none sense. The Torah revelation its applicable to all generations of the bnai brit people. No one individual can fulfill a commandment any more than no one individual can live the lives of all generations of Jewry to live in this world throughout all time.

"God promises Satan" Bunk the Torah speaks in metaphors teaching the mussar of the evil inclination within the human heart.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
"I still believe that the argument of the trinity is strong" You are you? What you personally believe proves nothing. Ruach HaKodesh - translated as holy spirit - refers to the knowledge of how to pronounce the Divine Name of HaShem. The new testament idolatry never once bring the Name of HaShem much less does it make even the slightest attempt to teach how to pronounce this Name.

The new testament imaginary man did not know how to pray. Prayer that's a Kabbala. The Yerushalmi Talmud teaches that over 247 prophets occupied their energies to write the Shemone Esri. The Men of the Great Assembly were 120 and our sages teach that these men qualified as prophets. How does the Tora define prophet? The new testament does not know. A prophet commands mussar. What is mussar. The new testament never discussed this concept! Proof that its authors did not know the definition of the term prophet. This leaves over 127 prophets outstanding. Kabbala means masoret/tradition. Therefore the Shemone Esri represent the ultimate in kabbala, b/c over 127 [the years of the life of Sara] prophets occupied their energies writing the Shemone Esri! Prayer requires making a blessing, jesus son of Zeus's prayer in no wise qualifies as making a blessing. Proof that the gospels redition of the imaginary man jesus that that myth was an ignoramus.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
" the idea that Jesus, the innocent lamb" Another non T'NaCH idea. The Akada of Yitzak, comes to teach of the oath brit which Yitzak swore to cut a brit with HaShem. Sara commanded Avraham to expel Hagar and her son, that Yishmael would not inherit the brit faith. A brit that's an oath alliance. An oath alliance has no connection with what a person does or does not personally believe. An oath alliance, the concept of faith, that a person keeps and honors the terms and pre-conditions by which he swears to keep the oath alliance.

At the brit between the pieces Avram swore an oath brit together with HaShem which swore an oath brit. Goyim do not know what oath Avram swore. At the akada/the binding of Yitzak upon the altar/ Yitzak swore an oath brit, and Goyim to not know what oath Yitzak swore. Why? B/c Goyim like Yishmael have no inheritance in the brit faith.

The korban/sacrifice requires the dedication of living blood. What is living blood? The Torah of Moshe commands do not eat blood. The Shul'chan Aruch poskins that if a person cooked a piece of liver in a pan by accident that the liver its permitted to be eaten but the pan requires le'bum [it must be kashered before using the pan again]. Liver, its full of blood. Hence clearly the blood which the Torah prohibits ie living blood does not compare to the blood found in a liver. Meaning, by the time that the butcher cuts out the liver from the animal, that animal its already dead. But the blood pumped out of the throat wound by a living beating heart, that's living blood - such blood contains nefesh/soul. A korban/sacrifice dedicates the life soul unto HaShem. The dedication of life that's a completely different idea than the foreign concept of death atoning for sin.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
"Can God become flesh" No. The Tora teaches that God is not a man, meaning Man other men can comprehend. The God of Israel no Man can comprehend. "Jesus believe he was God"? Utterly absurd, the dude exists only as a myth. But just to play the devils advocate, "what difference does it make" A quote from Ms Hillery Clinton LOL. "Jew"s sins could be forgiven by the death of one man". This Xtian theology that death atones for sin has no connection with T'NaCH sources what so ever. The guilt trip: he died for you. ewwwwwwwww how revolting.

New Testament sources have no authority over the Torah. Its a false messiah movement. Xtian new testament sources = to pie in the sky none sense. They carry no validity b/c the belief in Jesus represents a false messiah movement.

Interpreting the sealed Books of the prophets requires 2 pre-conditions by which the generations can unseal these sealed sources 1) middot tohorot and 2) context. The Xtian bible translations destroy the sugia context. The NaCH its ordered by means of sugiot. The Xtian bible changes this order with its chapter and verse addition which does not exist in the Torah.
"You asked why Jesus would need to be baptized if he didn"t sin." What is baptizem? The Torah talks about the din of tohorat ha'biet. But this requires a specified measurement of living water, rain water qualifies as "living water". A mikveh has this qualified measurement of 40 say'as [a type of measurement] of water. Babtizem lacks this minimum measurement so it accomplishes nothing. The new testament has not the slightest clue of the concept of tohor. A Cohen had to be tohor to do service in the Tabernacle. So what is Babtizem, it has nothing to do with tohor and the concept of atomement of sin by babtizem - that's clearly a non Jewish concept.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
takes one to know one. LOL
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
No. Because you're a jerk.
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