The Instigator
Red_Fox
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
LOL98700z
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

We can all ignore Gender

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 574 times Debate No: 119782
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

Red_Fox

Pro

(Gender: man; preferred pronouns: he, Him, His. )

Do you have a friend who's always going on about the NBA or NFL or baseball? I have a buddy who is really into accumulating points that turn into free hotel stays and airline flights. He brings it up a lot and wants all his friends to do it, Too. I've done it a little. My wife's friend's passion is Family History, And sometimes she says that she's literally 'a better person' because it is her pastime. Oh, And then there is this one lady at work whose wall is covered with papers detailing the minutiae of gender definitions, Politics, Disorders, Etc, Etc.

0 - Debate Thesis
I am moral, Ethical, And polite while never acknowledging or caring about anyone's gender and completely ignoring the entire gender industry.

1 - My argument #1
Gender is a hobby. Like all hobbies, No one has to take it up, Or care about it at all. Occasionally, It is fun to hear about others' hobbies. Most times it is boring. Sometimes, It is pretentious.

The worst part is when fanatics try to convince us of something within the world of their hobby. Fanatics expect us to agree on the right way of thinking about some controversial call by a referee. Fanatics think they are better than us just for having the hobby. Fanatics can't imagine how anyone could live their life without being immersed in their thing.

The reality is that very few hobbies attract more than a minuscule fraction of the population. Gender is one of these. It is a hobby that most people don't follow, And no one needs to follow it.
LOL98700z

Con

Gender has become a more and more controversial issue in our lives. Before I start any of my argument, I would like to quote @Thoht's comment in another debate on gender which i have participated in.

People are re-defining "gender. " We have redefined words in the past. In reality, All English words have been made up at one point in time or another. All of them have been redefined. Many of them have multiple definitions. There's no real reason to have two different words for biological sex. We can just say 'sex' and not 'gender' in all those cases. Having the second word for it is not inherently useful.

Bisexual is a term for people who would have sex with their own sex or the opposite sex. Pansexual is the term most people will use if they'd have sex with any sex/gender. So people who call themselves bisexual may not have sex with other people that are of different genders or intersex et cetera.

So most people accept their biological sex, But you can be male and still want to wear dresses, Play with dolls, Have long hair, Wear makeup, And tick every single "feminine" box outside of "sex=female. " It seems silly to call these people 'boys. '

I thank Thoht for having such a well point. Anyway, I will begin my argument on why we shall not ignore Gender.
First of all, Gender, According to Merriam Webster Dictionary means:
"A subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, Pronoun, Adjective, Or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, Social rank, Manner of existence, Or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms. "
Thus, Making my opponent's argument pointless. Gender isn't a hobby, It is a combination of physical, Social, Psychological and also behavioral pattern. I wonder where my opponent classify this serious issue as a mere hobby.

C2: Gender is one of the most important classification in society.
Quoting my opponent, "The worst part is when fanatics try to convince us of something within the world of their hobby. Fanatics expect us to agree on the right way of thinking about some controversial call by a referee. Fanatics think they are better than us just for having the hobby. Fanatics can't imagine how anyone could live their life without being immersed in their thing. " I wonder where you have got evidence on this. In fact, Gender had become a concept that is a part of our daily lives. My opponent tries to argue that no personnel would talk about another's gender, However, That is simply not true. Every person, When meeting a stranger will automatically sort the person into a special pile, Which is how we got the concept of Gender. When you see a person with male physical traits, It is typical you assume him/her as male. That is Gender, And simply, It is not a hobby or ignorable issue in our current society.
Debate Round No. 1
Red_Fox

Pro

(Gender: "Neanderthal"; preferred pronouns: dude, Master, Hero's. )

0 === Thesis
First, I agree that using the grammatical definition of gender would make this whole debate pointless. Second, Your choice of definitions is odd since English doesn't assign genders to nouns (unlike most romance languages). Third, Clearly this is NOT the definition of gender we are debating.

1 === A Hobby
Lots of people think their hobbies are critical to life. This is also true for many Gender Fans. Butterfly classification is also based on a "combination of physical, Social, Psychological and also behavioral pattern, " but that doesn't mean I have to care.

Gender is not part of my daily life. Outside of this debate, I did not refer to or hear about gender at all today (or most days of the year). The most common reason Gender ever comes up is because of Gender Fanatics insisting on its discussion.

2 === My argument #2
Gender today is like color. Let me explain.

When I look around in the world, I see 10 basic colors (ROYGBV + BW & Gray + Brown). You may see more or less, And that's okay. While yes, Some paint companies name their "colors" mauve, Sunflower, Papyrus, And periwinkle, I see them for what they are: dark purple, Yellow, Light brown, And light purple. The list of names can theoretically go on forever. Key to this analogy is that the color "Mermaid" is not self-defining. I can't know what color it is without seeing it or being given its specifications (ie, "it is a medium shade of blue-green").

For non-fanatics, The explosion of genders is equivalent. The list of gender names and pronouns can theoretically go on forever and are not self-defining. For example, You CANNOT understand the gender I call "Neanderthal" unless I explain it to you. (It is a hyper-masculine heterosexual man who is incapable of dealing with modern genders or colors. )

For both colors and genders, Morality/ethics/etiquette don't require us to care. Everyone is free to look around themselves and choose how many "basic" genders they see. This is a personal choice that we don't have to justify to anyone (leastwise to Gender Fanatics). You may say this is a self-limiting position to take. But one of the hallmarks of our time is the freedom to be self-limiting. . . And even self-destructive.
LOL98700z

Con

C1: Word Definition:
My opponent had given a definition of gender which I will quote: Gender: "Neanderthal"; preferred pronouns: dude, Master, Hero's. I must, However ask for a validate source for that. I have yet to find any sources that give me that kind of resolution. My opponent call me odd for English doesn't assign genders to nouns. If you are thinking that is true, That is plain wrong. A good answer to that is for you to search up gender on google.

C2: Hobby
I noticed one word my opponent loves to use: Hobby. I felt a need to emphasize upon this matter. My opponent clearly think that gender is something simply ignorable. In truth, I admit that there are often specialist and experts who emphasize upon the matter of gender, And it is normal for a person to ignore them. However, It is no reason for everyone to ignore gender issue, Which is what this debate is primarily about. My opponent provided an example on how Butterfly Classification is also based on combination of physical, Social, Psychological and also behavioral pattern. From my side, I must argue that Butterfly Classification is no match for talking about gender equality, Gender industry pay gaps and also gender ceilings. It is simply not the same. An issue that impacts society as a whole, Doesn't stand in a category that should be acknowledged as Hobby.

C3: Gender is not color.
Gender is a much more serious issue. It indicts not only color, But also other social issues such as wage gap between different individuals who are different gender. My opponents argues about how Morality/ethics and etiquette don't requires most of us to care about it. However, It simply is foolish to regard the entire concept as a hobby and can be ignored. Without knowledge of this, You will be simply the same as the prejudice people that we are looking at these days who pay female workers with less wage and less privilege.

I will not go into the detail here, But I wish my opponent would provide a better argument than what he is giving me. Although I do admit that his view is indeed interesting.
Debate Round No. 2
Red_Fox

Pro

(Gender: gender-less; preferred pronouns: Red Fox, Red Fox, Red Fox's (no pronouns). )

0 === Defining Gender
I don't know or care how the Gender Industry is defining terms today, But I know we're not reviewing the grammatical gender of the words "dog, " "house, " or "moon. " Also, Since Gender Fanatics seem to redefine everything every couple years, It is unreasonable to expect regular folk to keep up.

1 === A Hobby
While everyone (presumably) has a gender, Most people don't spend much time thinking, Talking, Or inventing genders. Those who do are pursuing Gender as a hobby. No one is required to participate in this hobby, But I do expect polite and equal treatment of all.

2 === Colors
No comparison is complete. I agree that "Gender is not color. " However, They have similarities relevant to this debate:
--- They are both infinite in number, Because anyone can invent a new gender (as I did with "Neanderthal")
--- They are not self-defining, Meaning there is no way to know what gender a person is even after they tell you the name of the gender
--- They both can be made up of a small "basic" set, See next section

3 === Quarter (25 cents)
The three sides (heads, Tails, And grooved edge) of USA quarters provide a good-enough understanding of gender.

The overwhelming majority of people are either man or woman (or whatever they're called nowadays). These are represented by the heads and tails of the quarter. People who fall into one of the innumerable set of "other" genders are represented by grooves on the edge of the quarter.

I am not an expert in the Gender Industry or the Gender Hobby, But a quick internet search confirms that the three sides of a quarter have sizes in line with the distribution of genders. Actually, The similarity would be much better if the quarter were much thinner. The number of people with "other" as a gender is much less than the quarter suggests.

I have updated my preferred gender for Round 3 as an example of a workable method to be respectful without following the Gender Hobby. I recommend that we use a gender-less style to refer to that small portion of people who are not men or women. This respects their insisting that they are outside the "binary" norm, But also accounts for the fact that no one else cares.

4 === Conclusion
A. Gender terms keep changing and growing exponentially.

B. Most people don't have the time or inclination to follow all the changes.

C. Overwhelmingly, People still fall into the categories of man and woman.

D. The Gender Industry has provided a nonsensical set of genders.

E. We can all ignore Gender.
LOL98700z

Con

Since there is a limit on the number of words in this debate. (Red fox really needs to expand this. You are simply giving me a disadvantage. ) I am going to go brief.

A. Gender Terms keep changing and growing exponentially. That is true, However, Terms, Aren't what Gender itself really is. My opponent argued on how gender definition changes frequently, And somehow deems it ignorable. Despite his arguments does make sense, The thing I emphasize upon is the fact that gender is something much more bigger, It is an industry/field that focuses and conducts researches on treatments between male and female workers and also discrimination based upon gender.

B. Everyone have the responsibility and time to understand outstanding issue in gender problem. When I say that people have the responsibility and time, In our current day and age, It simply means swiping through your phone to get the latest updates. One of the most outstanding issue should be the #MeToo movement, Started from the online social platform in 2016, It quickly expanded into a huge movement that focuses on woman's treatment in industries such as film. It doesn't take much effort and time like my opponent suggested to understand something that is easily reachable and understandable on your phone.

C: Despite most of the world's population falls into male and female categories, It doesn't necessarily means that we can ignore those who are left out. Perhaps the easiest and the strongest argument of all 5, My opponent talks about how most people classify themselves as either male or female. However, In my understanding, My opponent is basically saying that: because so many people are identifying themselves as either male or female, Let's not pay attention to the ones who are left. (Next time, Say your argument more carefully. ) Not only is this argument against the human right which states that we are all equal: (http://www. Un. Org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/), But it is also against our current social ideology, In which we style ourselves as equal, Democracy and freedom.

D: I am running out of words, However, My opponent talk about the list being too big, These lists aren't intended for you anyway, Used in only sociological researches, These words are ProFessional.

F: Finally, My argument would be: You can choose to ignore gender, But it is every person's right to choose to ignore gender. While some may certainly be blacked out about it, It doesn't take many efforts and is simple to learn and you will certainly benefit from learning it. Going without the knowledge of gender in this society, Is Dangerous.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
I actually like Red_Fox's point here to some extent. His position is essentially a big part of why people will call themselves 'nonbinary' or agender.

We tend to set things up on a spectrum of girl-boy when it comes to gender and call your behaviors 'girlish' or 'boyish. ' Spectrums like this are falling out of fashion, And I'd be glad if they go.

Examples

Girl = skirts boy =pants
girl = earrings boy =watch
girl = long hair boy = short.
girl = makeup boy = none

A lot of these were reversed in the past. Accepting them all as social constructs and dealing away with the whole boy/girl thing wouldn't be a bad thing.

When Pro says the majority don't care much about gender he's mistaken.

His point is solid enough. People who focus on gender so much and take it to heart can be annoying to those who do not.
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