The Instigator
John_Eaton
Pro (for)
The Contender
Sirtycolt3
Con (against)

We should ban all immigrants from the United States

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Debate Round Forfeited
Sirtycolt3 has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 699 times Debate No: 111232
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

John_Eaton

Pro

They harm the economy by forcing everyday working-class Americans to pay with our taxpayer money to feed their statistically likely illegal lifestyle.
Sirtycolt3

Con

While it is true that illegal immigrants have the possibility to skip out on taxes, a study that was talked about on CNN showed that around half of the illegal immigrants in the workforce alone (As not all illegal immigrants are in the workforce) do in fact pay taxes, which contributes to nearly 13 billion dollars in taxes back in 2010. That's just the illegal immigrants, all legal immigrants are still required to pay taxes and they are also on record, meaning that if they don't pay taxes they are much more likely to get caught doing so.
But even if they do pay taxes, you must still consider that a staggering 7.5% of them have convicted of a crime! Damn that number is high, it's so high that when compared to the nationwide arrest record, 1/3 Americans have committed a crime. So let me say this again, 7.5% of illegal immigrants have committed a crime, while by the age of 23, 33.3% of Americans have been arrested, getting arrested as an illegal immigrant is almost a sure fire way to get deported. As you can see, illegal immigrants are not cheating the system by not paying taxes, most of them; nor are they using that money to fund some illegal cartel that everyone fears they do.
Debate Round No. 1
John_Eaton

Pro

Ok first off, CNN is one of the most left-leaning biased sources you will ever read. Second of all, illegal immigration IS STILL ILLEGAL. So literally 100% of illegal immigrants ARE CRIMINALS. Thirdly, let's talk about legal migration. A study published in Summer 1998 by Kristin F.Butcher and Anne Morrison Piehl determined that quote . 'Using data from the Uniform Crime Reports and the Current Population Surveys, we find, in the cross section, that cities with high crime rates tend to have large numbers of immigrants'. Si why aren't we doing something about it?
Sirtycolt3

Con

1) I agree, I could have picked a better site then CNN, however immigration.procon.org verified this fact and included that all illegal immigrants pay some tax of some sort that is automatically deducted from their pay by their employers, from the store in the form of sales tax, and other ways.
2) Yes they are still illegal, but who here hasn't committed a crime of some sort? When I was 6 I accidentally stole this little rubber toy just because my mom called me over to the resistor and so I lost focus on what I was doing (I have ADHD so I get squirrel moments) So are you going to arrest me? Probably not, illegal immigration is worse, but are you still going to deport a little child just because their parents dragged them here for a better life when they were a child? I hope you don't. But if we were to ignore that small fact, then most of them still hasn't committed a secondary crime or done anything else to provoke legal intervention. Why remove such an important part of the economy? (More on that later)
3a) You have to be careful not to mix connections with coincident, or in this case mix fact with fear. www.colorado.edu states that native residents (Non immigrants) tended to commit more crimes than immigrants. Although this next part is purely opinion, you should still see where I am coming at when I say that immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, would naturally try to stay under the radar as the risk to crime greatly increases when there is a possibility of getting deported if caught.
3b) Like I said in 3a, don't mix connections with coincident, it may be true that cities with high crime rate tend to have high immigrants, however, jacksonfreepress.com states that income is a direct relation to crime rate, if a community has a lower income, it is more likely to resort to crime to feed their family, this makes employment harder so they have to turn to more crime. And when an immigrant goes to a new country, they tend to move towards areas where other immigrants that share their customs are. This is how places like China town form, although I could not find out why they tend to go to cities over towns, it may have to do with work being more available there, and other immigrants already there. Together it creates the illusion that higher crime rates are connected to higher immigrants, however these two statics are separate as immigrants go where ever they want, but end up in cities as they are closer together so they seem larger. While Crime rates are more towards cities as Poverty and Crime rate are connected, immigrants avoid crime so it's unlikely that the crime rate is connected to immigrants.

4) Now like I hinted to earlier, www.thenation.com states that illegal immigrants actually contribute a fair part to our economy, they don't comment on all immigrants in general. www.cbsnews.com has a graph that shows that illegal immigrants actually supply a larger percent of our workforce by just a few percent, so basically they are worth half of our economy... While this sounds like they are taking our jobs, this is actually good. www.investopedia.com States that too low of unemployment is bad, when too low of unemployment is achieved then people fear leaving their jobs to look for better ones, as they might not find a better job. It also means that many businesses will be under supplied either forcing themselves to shrink until they have enough people to fill demand, or pay larger sums of their profit to fill these jobs, less profit means less economic growth. When scaled nation wide you will see that too few jobs will force many businesses to shrink, this creates a dip in our economy, it also forces everyone to stay at their current job rather than work their way up (Pay wont always increase, and if it does the company can't support this forever).

So, is deporting the immigrants worth it? Not only do we have to answer a moral question that is highley bias and debatable, we also have to look at the economic value, if we export even a small fraction of these people, where will we get people to replace them?

Debate Round No. 2
John_Eaton

Pro

1. I'm not saying that all illegal immigrants don't pay tax, I'm saying that they have a lifestyle that is criminal by our standards.

For example, Central Americans (Mexico,El Salvador,Guatemala and Honduras especially) are responsible for 74% of all illegal immigrants in the US and do you know how many of them commit violent crimes? 12 percent of murder sentences, 20 percent of kidnapping sentences and 16 percent of drug trafficking sentences. Why are we allowing this to be allowed exactly despite only making up 13% of the US population.

http://www.foxnews.com...


2. We weren't talking about you or even about ADHD. I suggest you talk about the topic but anyway, 'who hasn't commited a crime?' let's see here um... 2 in 3 black people and 4 in 5 whites! Yes I'm talking jail statistics so this number is probably lower but oh well. Would I deport a child because of their parents? Yes of course I would and I would also deport the parents as well. As I said they are criminals by ILLEGALLY entering the US and should be treated as such and the economic benefits to illegal immigration? Well sure it may be good for the rich and the immigrants but what about us? 'The 50-75,000 jobs given to DACA eligable illegal immigrants' (1) has to come out of someones pocket and that pocket is out of true native Americans. So to replace them simply give jobs to the 4.1% of Americans who are unemployed. (2) Easy fix!

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org...
(2) https://www.bls.gov...


3.3a is as you said just 'purely opinion' and that opinion is wrong. Maybe you should ask their victims how that theory has worked for them! Oh and by the way, the reason that may come up is because of like you said trying to stay low and just rebuild their lives and that may work for 'civilians' but not for the drug cartel or the hitmen or mafia ringleaders who flood into the US like crazy would say otherwise and as I proved, facts back me up here as well but I might as well. I would also like to say that you reasoning for this crime wave by migrants is true. The reason why they are poorer is wrong. It's because of these drug cartel leaders and have you notcied that 'low income' is associated with areas that drug cartels thrive in? Coincidence? I think not.


https://www.businessinsider.com.au...
Sirtycolt3

Con

1) http://www.politifact.com... Valdez stated that "The undocumenteds are no more likely to commit crimes than our native-born citizens.", then later in the article, they state that Nation Research has shown that illegal immigrants commit less crime than the native population. In Texas alone, around 1.76% of crimes are committed by illegal immigrants, this being one of the largest illegal immigrant destinations in the US. So even in the large immigrant areas crime seems to be on the low when it's connected to illegal immigrants. Then the Washington post assures this by directly stating in their conclusion that illegal immigrants don't commit more crime that natural born Americans, . How can you lead a criminal lifestyle if the country you are running away to commits more crime than you do? And while it is true that some illegal immigrants smuggle drugs and other contraband into the country, most of these illegal immigrants don't stay, rather they make many trips back and forth to furth smuggle drugs in, they never actually bring their family or stay in America, they aren't immigrants if they aren't here to stay.

2) When I was talking about myself I was referring to small crime that isn't accounted for, I'm not referring to break-ins and intended theft on a larger scale, http://www.politifact.com... found that around 70% of Americans have done something to get put in jail, I think that number is a bit higher than 2/3 blacks and 4/5 whites.
2b) so if you are to deport a child, even if their parents are illegal immigrants, what about children born in the US? They are natural born Americans, by law, you can't have your citizenship removed and get deported unless you willingly revoke your citizenship from the US. So by deporting these parents you essentially are orphaning them.
2c) (splitting it apart just because this became several different topics now), You can't just give the 4.1% of the unemployed Americans jobs, Firstly that isn't enough to cover all immigrants, even just illegal immigrants. If it was enough our economy would suffer, there would be a shortage in our workforce forcing companies to size down or move jobs overseas, either way, Americans get the short stick in the long run. Plus we still have our right to stay unemployed, just because there are jobs open, doesn't mean people will want them, usually, these jobs that aren't wanted are taken by the illegal immigrants, so yes. They take our jobs, but mostly the jobs we don't want.
3) I'm a little lost in your reasoning here, but drug cartels want to keep a low cover, we agree in this. So if they want to keep a low cover, they would flood mostly to lower income areas where crime is higher, if crime is higher in an area, than their crime gets masked, sure some of the low-income crime areas are because of them, but to say they all are isn't true. Plus the drug cartel can only sell drugs where there are Americans to sell drugs too. Most of these drugs get redistributed by an internal network all over the country, and this isn't just by illegal immigrants, American gangs like the Outlaws and Hell's Angles have been known to work in drug operations as well. So in general, low-income areas are attractions to drug cartels because it's easier to hide there, in rich citie,s they are easier to notice and thus operation is riskier.
Debate Round No. 3
John_Eaton

Pro

I can no longer put off debating you so I'm going to make this worth the wait. Have you noticed that literally everyone you linked is of a Hispanic descent? Also, your first link doesn't work but enough about that. Let's discuss why your points are rubbish.

1. 1st off, the reason why Texas has so few crime by illegal immigrants is because if they are spotted under Texas law they probably will be deported back to let's say Mexico as they do not want to risk publc safety. How are they a public safety risk? Ask Sweden and Germany how mass immigration has gone on for them!

2.To answer your question on 'How can you lead a criminal lifestyle if the country you are running away from commit more crime than you do?' Well to put it simply that doesn't stop you from living a criminal lifestyle, just may make it slightly harder. Oh and by the way, the definition of 'immigrant' according to the United Nations is 'The term migrant can be understood as "any person who lives temporarily or permanently in a country where he or she was not born' so therefore the drug smugglers who make 'trips back and forth' as you put it. ARE STILL IMMIGRANTS! (It's also in the name 'illegal immigrant'
http://www.unesco.org...

3. To answer section 2a, most of these illegal immigrants have ended up in jail while the '4 in 5 whites and 1 in 3 blacks' I stated ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IN JAIL as I explained. Just because you commit a crime doesn't mean you'll go to jail. By the way, the numbers are 177,960 out of every 11.2 million will end up in federal prison
https://edition.cnn.com...

4.2b can be answered by stating the following fact. Foster care system, enough said

5.2c is also very easy to answer, if you want to live off the state without working for it. Being unemployed is the way to go, but for those who want to help our economy, we will give them jobs. And to answer your second point the maths actually add up. If we give the jobs taken up by illegal immigrants (3% of the population) and give it to the 4.1% unemployed population of the US. We could comfortably make up those numbers. Oh, and don't give me rubbish how 'we don't want the jobs that illegal immigrants have' we all have to work for a living and none of us want to do it so how do you get the idea that some people are the opposite?
http://www.pewresearch.org...

6. To go back to the subject of drug cartels of course they would flood to low-income areas. If you go back to my previous round argument you will notice that the 'drug cartel map' are majority of the time, in areas with an income below national average of $59,039
https://www.businessinsider.com.au...


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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Sirtycolt3 3 years ago
Sirtycolt3
Sorry man, spring break a while ago and I went up to the dells for a vacation, by the time I got back I completely forgot to write something, I understand if this seems like an excuse but I have nothing else to say about it. This doesn't mean you won, I just failed respond in time. Immigration is still a hot topic, someone else will finish this fight for me. If not now then in the future. (IDK why I added the last part. It's late, I just want to go to bed and cry but I can't)
Posted by John_Eaton 3 years ago
John_Eaton
No brepop, our forefathers who defeated the British in the Revolutionary Wars did. You have just insulted our forefathers. In 12 hours I will respond to this guys argument
Posted by brepop 3 years ago
brepop
The United States was built on immigrants and with immigrants, we would not be a nation. Sadly your nation is gripped by prejudices and baizes that blind people.
Posted by John_Eaton 3 years ago
John_Eaton
Renie I'm with you, I will respond tommorow to his bollocks. I don't have time for a essay right now
Posted by Renie 3 years ago
Renie
There is a difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants. I have no issues with those staying and entering any country legally (although I prefer a low amount of immigrants) but if you're illegally in my country, I won't tolerate it.

i am not an immigrant myself, but I think it is unfair to immigrants who have gone through the correct legal processes for illegal immigrants to be able to have no repercussions for entering the country illegally - regardless of how much tax they reportedly pay.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
just ban islam, the rest are simply humans, some bad most good, like anywhere else
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