The Instigator
haywire4fun
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Nd2400
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

What rookie was the sleeper in this years draft?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Nd2400
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/16/2018 Category: Sports
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 714 times Debate No: 113999
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (13)
Votes (2)

 

haywire4fun

Pro

I personally believe Lamar Jackson is.
Nd2400

Con

Okay, since you didn't go in depth on your round . i won't either in this round to be fair. Since there really no rules to this debate.

My pick for a sleeper pick is Saquon Barkley Running Back from Penn State, number 2 pick for the New York Giants.. I pick him because he will at least have a full time role compared to your pick Lamar Jackson, who will play a backup role in his first year. Obviously i will go much further in detail in round 2 and 3. I will give you the why and how i think Saquon Barkley, is the better pick and why he will have more upside and potential than your pick. Saquon Barkley, will be among the best sleepers from this yeat NFL Draft.

The ball is now in your court!!!!!

Debate Round No. 1
haywire4fun

Pro

Okay while i agree that he will be an amazing day 1 player i don't believe he is a sleeper. the browns have a running back in Carlos Hyde who in my opinion is a top 10 running back and the browns didn't have a stud QB. so while i am aware baker wasn't the best pick there is no way they would have taken him.

As for Lamar Jackson I feel that he is in the best place to succeed. he has a very high chance to start in the mid to late part of 2018. here are my reasoning for both of my statements.

1) He has the best QB coach behind shanahan, marty mornhinweg coached a jets team with Michael Vick.
2) He gets to train with one of the fastest quarterbacks in his prime ( his prime was his rookie year ) RG3.
3) He has the quarterback with one of the strongest arms to teach him in super bowl 47 mvp Average Joe Flacco ( im a ravens fan. hes not elite.)
4) Joe flacco is injury prone late in his career ithe a knee injury a back injury and a shoulder injury all in the last 2 years.
5) if flacco doesn't prove his worth by week 5 ( im guessing if he doesnt have atleast 3 wins ) they will bench him like Tyrod and peterman.
6) Harbaugh is use to speed QB's he had Pro Bowl QB Tyrod Taylor on his SB winning team.
7) Ozzie will want to see his final 1st round pick in action before putting up his clipboard.
Nd2400

Con

Thank you for this debate topic and for your reasoning. Okay now i will go right into my argument, on why Saquon Barkley is the better sleeper of this year NFL draft. Oh yeah, by the way you never specify on what is a sleeper nor define what should be included as a sleeper. So, this is why i went with a higher draft pick.

Sure Saquon Barkley has higher expectations and yes he might not be considers a sleepers too some. But in the NFL, high draft picks don't usually pay out to what they should be. I will give you some examples:

1. "JaMarcus Russell first overall in the 2007 NFL Draft. " A Bust....

2. "Tim Couch, the first overall selection in the 1999 NFL Draft." A Bust...

3. "Charles Rogers - No. 2 overall selection in the 2003 NFL Draft." A Bust...

4."Blair Thomas was selected second overall in 1990". A Bust...

5. "Ki-Jana Carter - A running back being selected first overall In 1995. A Bust...

https://www.cbssports.com... There a lot of high draft picks, that were Busts. So, just because you were drafted high doesn't mean they can't be a sleeper.

Now i will give evidence on why Saquon Barkley is the best sleeper this year. For a running back to have his size and strength is rare. Some cuts are reminiscent of "Barry Sanders". He Has elite downfield speed to hit long runs for Touchdowns. Best on the outside though he's not terrible between the tackles. Has plenty of power too. Dynamic running back prospect. He will also be a full time started. So, this means he will get a lot of carry, a lot of touches to gain for a lot of yards. Since the passing game from the Giants been down there will focus on running the ball a lot. And this will give Saquon Barkley more potential to score Touchdowns by having the ball more often. Since he took over the starting roll in Pen State, he been unstoppable. He is extremely talented on how to score the football. The Giants has a star with Saquon. He will be among the young stars fighting for the Rookie of the year award this year.

As for your reasoning on why Lamar Jackson being a good sleeper. I will disagree with you. So, lets explain why i disagree with what you said.

1. You mentioned "Marty Mornhinweg coached a jets team with Michael Vick." not a good mentioned. In 2014 the Jets finish a record 4-12. This isn't good at all. Even worst if you look at Vick stat's there not good to look at in 2014. Let's looked at some stat's from that year. Vick completion percentage is 52.9%, his touchdown passing was only 3. His interceptions was 2 and his quarterback rating was 21.4% in 3 complete games. This is a very bad comparison. Not good numbers at all.

2. You pointed out he going to train with RG3. Again not a good quarterback to follow in one footsteps. I would much rather have Lamar Jackson follow Flacco footsteps either though he suck now. Or even better yettrain with Donovan McNabb, but he not. RG3 has a bad record and couldn't pass accurately, and tend to make horrible decision.

3 to 5. Flacco injuries.. Yes he has a lot of them like most NFL players. But he hasn't miss much playing time. Like you had suggested. The last two season he actually didn't miss a game. Only 2015 when he actually miss 6 games. https://www.pro-football-reference.com.... So, he actually plays though injuries. So, this means Lamar Jackson, has a very low chance of playing this year. Even if Flacco plays terrible, Lamar Jackson chances are still very low to play. Because the Ravens coaching staff will, say Lamar is too young still and not game time ready. So, in all likelihood he will have to sit on the bench for the season and try to learn well watching. Instead of actually playing.

6. Harbaugh used Tyrod Taylor during there Superbowl run in 2012 is false. Taylor stat's on 2012 was no Touchdown and one interception, with no game starts. https://www.pro-football-reference.com...

7. Ozzie would want to see Lamar Jackson play. Yes he would. But it not his decision, he not the coach. He retiring this season so he really doesn't have a say if he plays or not. Best case is Lamar plays the last two games of the season.

Pretty simple here Saquon Barkley, will have more of a impact then Lamar Jackson this season.


More sources

https://www.footballdb.com...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com...



Debate Round No. 2
haywire4fun

Pro

While i understand that i didn't specify the parameters of what makes a player a sleeper I would like to point out a fair bit of incite.

1. "Calvin Johnson" #2 in the 2007 NFL draft: Probable 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
2 "Donovan McNabb" #2 in the 1999 draft also a probable 1st ballot Hall of Famer.
3. "Carson Palmer" #1 overall in the 2003 NFL draft Probably not headed to Canton but solid player sans injury.
4. the 1990's NFL draft was bad sans Seau.
5. Next 2 picks after Carter were Boselli and McNair both had above average careers .

And my arguments last time were just to prove that the ravens have the management to have Jackson be come a star, And who ever said anything about just this year i mean throughout their career. Nothing away from Barkley. I just think if any other team had him under contract i would have no problem agreeing with you here's why the giants are the worst fit for his future.

1) They have an aging Veteran as their only pro bowl lineman: Nate solder is the best part of this o-line. and he's not as good as in his past years. The rest of the offensive line is weak at best ( Not strength wise but skill wise ) and it's going to show on Barkley because any star college running back will lose their skill in the nfl if they dont have protection.
Good O-Line when Rookies : Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fornett, or Le'veon Bell, Chris Johnson.
Bad O-line when Rookies: Darren McFadden, Ki-Jana Carter, Trent Richardson,Bubba Bean, "Cadillac" Williams

2) The giants cant handle a running back. The last time they had a running back above 1100 yards was 2010 (the only reason i said 1100 was because of the 2012 season where as Ahmad Bradshaw rushed for 1015 yards which was barely above average. But i'm just saying you could make a jersey similar to the browns QB jersey with failed Giants HB's.
Put him on the browns i feel he would do even worse. But i digress the main cause for concern is the fact that the giants have dismantled their offensive line. Justin Pugh, and Weston Richberg. both gone but they only brought in nate solder. im calling it a 4-12 season at best with <3500 passing yards.
Nd2400

Con

Nice response. So, it my job to break down what you wrote. So, lets do that.
By The way thank you for a good debate.

You started by giving out highly successfully draft picks. Which is correct, some high draft picks are worth it like the ones you mention. But in the NFL high draft pick usually not worth what they pick at. You get more value draft picks in the later rounds like round 2 to 4. You get better value in high draft picks in Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey. More so than the NFL.

You also mention the offensive-line being important for a Running Back, and help dictate they success. Which is true, to some aspect. Like Ezekiel Elliott, benefited from a good offensive-line. And
Darren McFadden, didn't benefit because he had a terrible offensive-line. But it also not always the case. For Saquon Barkley case, he had a terrible line at Penn State. Penn State offensive-line was ranked 107th in 2017.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com... Which isn't good at all. Penn State Rushing Offensive is ranked 59th in 2017.
https://www.ncaa.com...
But despite these horrible numbers from the O-line. Barkley had a very good year. Ranked 33rd overall at Rushing. http://www.espn.com...; Having score 16 rushing Touchdown and over 1100 yards in Rushing, With a 5.7 yard per carry average.

"Barkley's more explosive than Elliott and more likely to hit a 75-yard touchdown when the last 60 yards depend on nothing but pure speed. Also, Barkley's a more reliable receiver".
https://www.cbssports.com... So, even if the Giants O-line lack the ability to protect Barkley's. He is used to not being protected And yet he still has produced great numbers, without a good O-line in college.

LeGarrette Blount led the NFL in rushing touchdowns in 2017, despite the Philadelphia Eagles being ranked 19th out of 30 for there offensive line.
Oh yeah by the way, the Baltimore Ravens is even worst ranking 28th for there O-line. So, you think this will help the Rookie Quarterback Lamar Jackson? I don't think so. They will struggle to protect him if indeed he does play this year. http://www.sportsonearth.com...

You also admitted that it not so much on this year on who having a better impact, But there full careers. So, you acknowledge who will already have a better rookie season and that is Barkley's. Now to predict on who will have a better career is difficult, because there a lot that could happen. But with Barkley's having to play the whole season as your guy Jackson will sit on the bench for most of this season. Barkley's already having a pretty big advantage over Jackson by playing more in his early part of his career. It a better chance Barkley's will have the better career. Plus he more in line to have the better career because as a running quarterback like Jackson is he will be force to do things that he will be uncomfortable with.

There are more flops for a Quarterback than a running back. All we have to do is look at History at the Quarterback position. Dual-threat_quarterback is harder to stay on the field. Such as RG3,
Kordell Stewart, Michael Vick, Tim Tebow, JaMarcus Russell All had injuries and struggle to stay on the field because they all lack throwing the football accurate. So, this doesn't look good for Jackson. His biggest threat is trying to be accurate. In his best year in the college ranks he only had a 59.1% percentage throwing accurately. So, IF he doesn't improve on this. He will not last long at all. As for Barkley's, his biggest threat isn't him it his offensive line. But he already used to having todo more with less. So, we can all see Barkley's, having a hugh advantage over Jackson. In the short term and even a longer term. Oh yeah as for your reason with the Baltimore Ravens coaching staff will help Jackson with success. Well i already said Marty Mornhinweg will not help. You haven't proven otherwise, and as for Harbaugh he no guarantee to keep his job after this season with another sub- 500 record. He will most likely get fired after this season. And of course we already know Ozzie will be gone. You really haven't touch my other statements in my pervious. So, in my case for this year NFL sleeper i brought in evidence on why Barkley's will have the greater impact on his team.

So, please vote Con!!!!!!!
Debate Round No. 3
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Nd2400 1 year ago
Nd2400
@ imabench
I glad you enjoyed reading this one....
Posted by haywire4fun 1 year ago
haywire4fun
While it was meant as a silly debate i respectfully admit you had the better arguments and the better reasoning and if i could vote you would have mine.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
I hardly ever get to vote on sports debates because a lot of them are just so all over the place by the time arguments are all done, so to find one that was at least half decent made this interesting to go through and judge
Posted by Nd2400 1 year ago
Nd2400
@imabench :

Thanks for the vote.

I do agree it went from a sleeper debate to then actually comparing each other draft picks.
I think i went the route i did was, because i had a little more evidence to support my claim. I was going to pick Derwin James at 17th. But a defensive player is less sexy for the stat's line. And i didn't want to argue another QB. I know i could had pick someone else in the later rounds. But honestly that probably would encourage me to pick a defensive player, because i like defenses. LoL

Anyway thank you for vote. I know it rare for you to vote so a super thanks....
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
Just for the record I would have argued that Calvin Ridley was the best sleeper pick in the draft...... #28 overall who trained under the Nick Saban regime at Alabama who was picked just 4 spots before Jackson, but will be joining an already loaded Falcons team that just made Matt Ryan the highest paid QB in league history. With Julio Jones getting almost all the attention along with Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman also being watched, Ridley will have a lot of free space on the field to make solid plays and be very productive since the Falcons have so many other weapons to spread out defenses while Ryan is an elite QB..... But thats just me
Posted by haywire4fun 1 year ago
haywire4fun
the steelers drafted the less talented brother deal with it.
Posted by Nd2400 1 year ago
Nd2400
@WillBCool

Forget your damn steelers. I hate them with a passion....
Posted by WillBCool 1 year ago
WillBCool
Gosh no, a Ravens fan?! Steelers all the way.
Posted by Nd2400 1 year ago
Nd2400
Some good reasons. And i will get to your argument late tonight to tomorrow. (Fyi,I'm also a Raven fan, so i know where you are coming from).
Posted by haywire4fun 1 year ago
haywire4fun
I live in buffalo but im not a bills fan but i was pissed they passed on him round 1
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Forever23 1 year ago
Forever23
haywire4funNd2400Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: At the end of the debate, Con says "So, please vote Con!!!!!!!". Pro never says "Please vote Pro". Because of the fact that Pro never asks for my vote, I assume he doesn't want it. Therefore, I vote con.
Vote Placed by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
haywire4funNd2400Tied
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Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: The debate is meant to argue who is the best sleeper draft pick in the draft but ended up turning into a debate about which player would have a better year, which isn't the same thing. A sleeper draft pick would be someone who does way better than anyone predicted or thought they would, so the last pick in the second round would almost always be a better chance at being a sleeper pick than someone picked second overall, but neither side defined what exactly a sleeper pick was, and instead we got a 'who will do better than who' argument, made all the more hard to dissect because we're weighing a RB against a QB.... I leave arguments tied because the debate arguments were focused on what I mentioned before, but Ill grant source points to con since he used them better and undermine a few of the points Pro tried to make.... Fun debate to read through