The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
ConcodroidMK2
Con (against)

Where did God come from? A dream, a lie, and an explanation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/27/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 959 times Debate No: 111776
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (32)
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backwardseden

Pro

Taken from "The Atheist Republic"
Where did god come from? To Atheist Republic contributor Dean Van Drasek, the answer is simple: a dream, a lie, and an explanation.

You may have come across this topic in books and articles about religion, psychology, anthropology, philosophy, comparative mythology/religion, archeology, and even popular science books. Sadly, there is no answer, as it's buried in the depths of time before humans developed writing, and probably even before there was cave painting. I am not an expert in any of these fields, but I do have some ideas that I find more persuasive than others. Nothing here is original, and it's been picked from a wide variety of sources.

Intelligence in apes seems to be linked to brain size, at least when cross-referenced with technological accomplishments. Hominid's brains in the genus homo developed slowly until about 200,000 years ago. This marked the arrival of our species of hominid, homo sapiens. I suspect that the belief in the supernatural may have been as early as this.

Every human society ever discovered has had some belief in the supernatural. So where does this come from? The answer I find most persuasive is because we, like other animals, dream, but we had the intelligence to question what was the source for this experience.

The origin of gods lies in the belief in spirits, which is the belief that the experience of the mind in dreams was an externally originated experience. Many early cultures (which we know about through their written records) did not know that human thoughts were derived internally from the brain. By the time writing evolved, it was a well-established concept that dreams were frequently thought of as messages from the gods or another outside sources.

All other human sensory perceptions, such as sight, sound, taste and touch, come from external stimulants. When we are awake and thinking, we do not experience purely mental sensory events. Waking memory and dreams use different parts of the brain, which is why dreams can seem so real compared to mere memory. Dreams often use the same parts of the brain which are responsible for the processing of normal sensory signals, such as sight. This, the neurological experience is nearly the same.

In our dreams, which can be fearsomely realistic, we often see our dead family and friends. This presented our ancestors with a logical conundrum, as they "knew" their loved ones are dead, but they could see and hear and may even touch them in their dreams. So without other references, if we see what is real, and in our sleep we "see" those who are dead, then there must be something present that we can't see during the daytime. So an assumption that nocturnal senses would also be stimulated by external forces would be logical.

What happened next was pure human ingenuity. People were seeing these images in dreams, and could not always understand them. At some point in human history, some human decided to lie and claim that they could understand those nocturnal communications. They could interpret the cryptic messages from the dead friends or relatives, or they might even be able to communicate with them or channel them. The first conman was born, who no longer had to hunt or be productive for a living, but who could use their imagination and get the tribe (who more honestly did not claim to be able to understand or speak to these dream-people) to accord them a high status. Thus, the first shamans evolved within the tribes. It is an intrinsic part of almost every human culture, even our modern popular one (just look at all the movies and TV shows where people talk to ghosts and spirits). When we see someone today supposedly channeling the spirit of the dead, we are seeing a relic of humanity going back perhaps as far as 150,000 years or more.

But how to get from spirits of the dead to gods? I like the idea that is based on a basic human weakness that exists still today. People in authority don't like to admit ignorance, because they are afraid this will weaken the regard that others have for them. It would be natural for the tribe to ask the shaman questions such as: Where does the lightning come from? Why does the wind blow? How can I save my sick child? The shaman had no way to answer these questions, but they didn't want to admit this, so they made up an answer based on what people already believed and they knew worked for them within the community: namely, that these other occurrences were also the result of the actions or omissions of spirits, same as in the dreams, but stronger ones. As the lies multiplied and were retold over time, these spirits often became gods. Early recorded religions had thousands of such spirit gods, in the tress, rocks, waters, clouds, animals, etc.

As the explanations got more complex, and writing allowed the stories of the shamans and their ritualistic prescriptions to be recorded, the gods became more complex, rituals more refined, and the priesthood more powerful and organized. Out of this probably arose the institution of monarchy, where a secular ruler was in part entitled to the obedience of the people due to the favor of the imaginary gods. At some point, leadership became hereditary, which is not something we see in most other ape species, where any male can contend for the top spot. But at some point in human history, we decided that a person was entitled to rule over others not because of their own capabilities and merit, but because of their lineage - probably one of the worst ideas in all of human history. At that point, the shaman and the ruling class recognized that they had the same interest in promoting the religion of the gods which kept both in power and affluence.

So why do we have gods? Because we dream, and some people are very imaginative liars, and as we all know, any lie told often enough and loud enough tends to be accepted by many people as the truth.

Why do you think god was invented?

dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
ConcodroidMK2

Con

Why did you post an argument that's not even yours? And besides, your past comments show that your answers have a plethora of misspellings, improper grammar usage, and more of the like, so even if you didn't say that this was taken from the Atheist Republic, a website (with a funny front page, I'll give it that) that isn't that reputable (It's not even in the top 200,000 websites, unlike some other atheist [and Christian] ones).

Anyway, most of "your" arguments are based on pure speculation, not actual fact. For instance, "you" say that humans were presented with a logical conundrum. There isn't any proof for that. You can't actually prove that this happened without a time machine, which I would like God to drop out of the sky right now, but He has His ways, and it's best if I don't have one. We all know that we've dreamt (if we're awake enough) after the fact, and sometimes DURING the fact, even if we have no prior knowledge that dreams aren't real. Luckily, I haven't had anyone (that I can remember well, anyway) die in my life so far, however, it seems that people do see dreams of dead people, but still can't make head or tail of it. I'll give you that much. Humans are selfish. In "your" last paragraph, "you" say that the Shaman and Ruling class probably recognized the potential. Again, that is pure speculation, but I'll go along with it. Anyway, it doesn't seem likely. Why? Because if there's one con man, there are bound to be more con men. I'm sure that there have been usurpers along the line, so if you can sway a bunch of people the first time, why can't you sway them again? Not because the people thought that the first person, whoever they were, was correct because it's highly likely, that in this highly unlikely event, a person would immediately raise a contradiction, and say that they're a god.

So where do I think God (the God of the Christians, Catholics, and to a large extent the Jews and Mormons) come from? I think that he actually, truly, exists, and is betting on a winner- *AHEM*, watching me right now.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Why did you post an argument that's not even yours?" Typical teeny bopper 17 year old question proving once again that you are a teeny bopper and your thinking is at that level and cannot think as an adult. The answer dimwitted dullard snot meat sow is simple is because the article poses a lot of very good ideals that no person who believes in god can legitimately answer thus pinning that iiot, like yourself to the floor and never letting him up for oxygen. Duh.

"And besides, your past comments show that your answers have a plethora of misspellings, improper grammar usage," Who cares? I never stated my se habla ingles was very good. But one thing for sure smutty lethargic tinsel mind is that I have my own language in which no one can copy, so I"m proud of it. Now what exactly do you have going for you? Oh let"s ee"s chip off the ole big black blank bumbling blubbering boring boredom which bores a boring bore, namely yourself, nothing but a snoose from a granny fart.

Ah yes, The Atheist Republic runs some very good articles every now and then, oh I get it you only pay attention to those websites that are popular. So that means you pay attention to the most corruptible company that this country has ever seen, namely the NRA which is failing and fading fast. Ah yes, you pay attention to Donald Trump, the worst scummiest president of all time who has the lowest rating of any president ---ever---. You only pay attention to popularity which doesn"t matter a damn as compared to quality in which your fricken teeny bopper used con-dumb hourglass with a princess inside to grant you your three dishes, doesn"t get.

Oh and btw, according to what? "It's not even in the top 200,000 websites, unlike some other atheist [and Christian] ones)." You? How would you know? What grade of teeny bopper 17 year old concrete parachuting classes that uses a battery powered easy bake oven so you can learn to bake and fry water did yah come up with that one?

"Anyway, most of "your" arguments are based on pure speculation, not actual fact." Well Wowzers yah yodeling Buddhist monk, lookie there its time for me to end this glorious debate and declare myself the automatic winner. That"s because YOU nor ANYONE has yet to prove YOUR god"s existence of any kind. NOT EVER. That"s actual fact. If yah don"t like it, too bad, deal with it. Yah just lost. And I can see those sniveling little bloated screaming tears of rotted anger teething away trying to justify a meager truly lost hope. I truly love idiot schmucks like you know 0% of nothing. Bye.
ConcodroidMK2

Con

Sure, I'll prove my sources. I used Alexa ratings - the ratings that, if you would have bothered to check, show that T.A.R. isn't in the top 200,000 websites. I check my sources, and websites like that (I've learned through experience) aren't websites you can always trust. ***I didn't vote for Trump, and the NRA isn't something that I support at all***. You're inferring things that aren't meant to be inferred. You use a lot of sayings, which account for 26% of your entire... rampage. You do realize that a person who, in your own words, "17 year old ... using a battery powered easy-bake oven to bake and fry water", shouldn't be able to verify his sources and do his research (and realize that you pulled this exact same trick on another, very sane person). Zero percent of nothing is a nonreal answer - something a "17 year old concrete parachuting classes" (whatever that means) shouldn't know about. So you've basically just complimented me there - "I truly love idiot schmucks like you (who have a nonreal amount of knowledge, which .00/0 is, which means you've called my knowledge infinite). Bye." So you're giving up? Be a man (or a woman, or whatever) and don't run away like a coward LIKE YOU DID WITH THE PREVIOUS GUY! If you forfeit, I win. So it's your call.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by ConcodroidMK2 2 years ago
ConcodroidMK2
True. I'm not arguing with you about the topic that you've put out a challenge for. I am, however, arguing with you for being a complete and utter moron. You have no proof of any of what you've said, you're completely ignoring rational judgment by passing it off as 0% of nothing? And how is a sad cow an insult? You're just trying to save face after my absolute thrashing of you in the debate, yet you still refuse to accept rational judgment. You're an idiot. The Bible calls you a fool. You're trying to take the speck out of my eye and show it to the world, trying to prove I'm an ignoramus. But you're not noticing the log in your own eye, and that's proof of your chronic hubris.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
Didn't read it. You said "I'm not arguing with you anymore," You are just a pathetic teeny bopper sad cow chirp true sore loser flat out liar with invented excuses that utterly lacks any worthy valued evidence and cannot handle ANY truth from ANY opposing side whatsoever. Now its NOT my problem that you had to decide to post your ignorant posts and arguments that add up to 0% of anything. That's yours. Its also not my problem that you show 0 intelligence nor and edumacation. That's yours. Had you shown an intelligence and an edumacation, then things may have been different. But nah you had to lie and invent excuses. I'm also not here to please you. And if you don't like it, leave. I---don't---care. Gosh golly gee gosh darned it all its also not my problem AT ALL why you have no friends or loved ones. That's yours.
Posted by ConcodroidMK2 2 years ago
ConcodroidMK2
First off, I am a male. I can't be a "bopper". Second, the Bible has proven time and time again to be right with many, I repeat many, archaeological facts supporting it. Such as the discovery of the Hittites, which I'm sure you would talk about if they weren't discovered. I can rely on archaeological, historical, and rational evidence, while you rant on about my not being able to rely on any source other than the bible.
"Correct form of thinking"? That's like saying that just because you have an IQ of 143 you're smarter than most other people. I took a test when I was 13 and I got a 143, but I certainly wasn't smarter than most other people. I could think creatively, sure, but that doesn't mean I think the correct way. There IS no correct way. And yes, I can handle truth. Do you believe 9/11, or the moon landings, or that the assasination of JFK happened? I can name many Christians who don't think that any of this happened, and I can name many Atheists that don't think any of this happened, either. And text isn't the worst form of communication. Imagine what would happen to the gospels if they were handed down orally. Many languages were lost becuase they never had a written form. And how am I a coward?
Sorry, but you're taking the bible too literally. "And the ONLY way someone can EVER get to heaven in this belief in christ who tells you, once again, to give up your familes and all possessions, which means you don't have a family nor a computer - an impossibility for you. So there may only be an actual 1,000 christians on this planet." Ya ignoramus. If the bible was to be taken that literally, then we'd be made of wood. A little joke among us Christians-Jesus is the door, but he's not made of wood. We're the branches of the church, but we're not made of wood, either. You're trying to denounce the bible by insulting the people that you go against - but you don't realize you're sounding so dumb that even Atheists would insult you, mate-study the Bible and learn.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
Typical teeny bopper who's lost everything and cannot handle any type of truth when slapped in the face with it. Um no darling little maggot, I get my information for a lot of different books, places, websites etc. I don't rely on just one thing like you are 100% forced to, namely your bible, in which as stated and is correct thinking that YOUR god would never rely on text, the worst form of communication possible. You like nearly 100% of all christians are true cowards.
Posted by ConcodroidMK2 2 years ago
ConcodroidMK2
You can't say he's 6000 years, the bibile is unclear about that. And again, you took everything directly from a site. I'm not arguing with you anymore, I won the debate anyway. You're a hater, and you think you're the smartest. You're an idiot and a fool for thinking that.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
I'm sorry I forgot to present the vidie I said I would in the last post http://www.youtube.com... - A Revised Concept of Hell | Mark - Toronto, Canada | Atheist Experience 22.11(see that's yet another reason why I have genuine friends and you don't IS BECAUSE i PRESENT VALID EVIDENCE you have yet to present a single scrapping of it especially something for me to look up)

Now as far as a ball of pain? Oh boy, you have no idea what true suffering and pain is. I could tell you some true stories that would turn your soul black and then I would tell you about me. And according to you, whether you like it or not, your god creates everybody, especially children and no child can learn one god damned f--king thing from suffering, but your god loves to put children through horrific pain and suffering such as decades of rape and torture by daddy, otherwise he would not create children to go through these tortures, so don't tell me your god is love when you have 0% concept of the meaning of the word, and your christ had it easy dying on the cross for 17 hours tops. So-all-you-are-is-filled-with-excuses-and-nothing-but.
Maybe when you have just the tiniest bit of actual suffering it might wake you up into reality, that's this god of yours is just a hand check of the bubonic plague brought on by man's need to explain the unexplained. That's how ALL religions come about and are invented. No exceptions. None. They all have the same things in common which might give any intelligent person some thinking power, but nah not you because you cannot use that brain power that your god supposedly gave you... ALL known religions have an above world (a heaven if you will) and a below world (a hell if you will) and all religions have their own creation myths. There are a few religions founded, the earliest thus far known that are older than your god. 11,000 years. Your god, 6,000 years.
http://www.youtube.com... - Gobekli Tepe National Geographic
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
And to continue with your idiot of YOUR god being perfect. WHAT? Well only to a true idiot who cannot prove his god exists. Yeah this god created man with all of his broken bones, heart attacks, diseases, AND he creates every---single---person---knowing---full---well---what---what---every---single---person---will---be---doing---IF---PERFECT, Hitler, Hong Xiuquan, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, ALL serial killers, ALL torturers, ALL pedophiles, ALL tortures, ALL sadomasochists EVER thus proving this god of YOURS is hate and evil. PERIOD. Forgiveness? To them? Oh but wait the worst crime there is, is to go against your god. Not to torture, rape, beat, mutilate 6 five year old girls. Have a look at this and Matt asks time and time and time and time and time and time and time again "Do you think I should go to hell for not believing is jesus?" Well is that what you believe? Because that's exactly what your fricken bible says. And the ONLY way someone can EVER get to heaven in this belief in christ who tells you, once again, to give up your familes and all possessions, which means you don't have a family nor a computer - an impossibility for you. So there may only be an actual 1,000 christians on this planet. Wow.
Absolutely not do I rage on anyone who's different from me. Once again I've got friends. You don't. And we are different. One actually believes in YOUR god. And I've known him for 42+ years. But we are HONEST with each other and he has yet to prove himself correct and is p**ses himself off. And wow have we gotten into some DOOZIES for sure. But we've learned that when it gets to pitch fever to simply change the subject.
Sayings that don't make sense. Well duh. That's why you don't believe in YOUR god is because you don't understand YOUR bible and you have not looked up those "sayings" and you cannot handle a slap to the face with any kind of truth. So don't tell me that god is loving when you clearly haven't read your bible.
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
SO IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! Does every man sin? Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

Matt Dillahunty "What is sin and why should I care about it? I understand why I should live an ethical life and treating people in certain ways, we have secular foundations for moral systems. But sin from the christian perspective is a crime against god or god"s nature itself - right? If god makes the rules and you violate it, that"s a sin. Well what if god makes a rule that you should kill your child, does that make it good? Caller " Yeah that"s where I do things that are not aligned in what the bible says." Matt "Yeah. But are they good things? Do you have good reasons to have that the things you are doing are not immoral? Like do you have an example? Like don"t confess to a crime or anything. For example the bible is opposed to homosexuality. Do you think there"s something immoral about those who are homosexuals?" Caller "Uh there"s none that I can think of." Matt "Yeah me neither. And so if the bible"s opposed to it add the bible is the word of god, and the Koran is opposed to it as well and the Koran is supposed to be the word of god as well, and there are two holy books and let them argue over who god is and what god thinks and until they can come up with a sound secular justification for homosexualiy being immoral then I don"t need to pay their views any money because its just an opinion."
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
Oh OK great, so have it you way, then you believe in this christ who flatly has ORDERED you to give up your families and give up ALL of your possessions and follow him. Now have a good time with this vidie. http://www.youtube.com... - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?

Really? W here are you going to follow him? And then YOUR christ has one of the super fatal flaws of YOUR bible because he said he would come back within the generation. Well sorry folks he didn't. Oh and I get it also according to you, you don't believe in any of the OT, so that means that you do not believe in creation, the great flood (which never happened btw), Noah, the ark which could have never floated biblically speaking, exodus, the 10 commandments, the parting of the red sea, the 10 plagues, Sodon and Gomorrah etc etc etc. That means according to you, you do not believe that the god of the NT is the same as the god of the OT. And yet the god of the NT is still more powerful in the NT according to jesus and this god did not grant this jesus ANY powers of any kind. Where did he get them? See you like every christian, you make up YOUR rules as you go along WITHOUT EVIDENCE in which no god would use text as a source of communication, not ever, the worst form of communication possible so idiots like YOU can get it wrong.
"God is perfect, we're imperfect." Oh really. See that is yet another reason why you have no friends or loved ones. Keep it going, it will continue. Now you are p**ing me off because you are THAT stupid and ignorant. If YOUR god was peerfect, he would have not had to have destroyed the world only to recreate only to destroy it again only to have this stupid reincarnate of man to die for man's supposed SINS (and sins don't exist btw, only in YOUR stupid bible do they, so you keep looking over your shoulder like you've done something wrong. I've got a clean shoulder on my head AND your bible is contradictory and hypocritical in sin anyway
Posted by backwardseden 2 years ago
backwardseden
@ConcodroidMK2 - Oh gee gosh golly gee gosh darned it all, I thought you addressed yourself with that one. So I originally ignored your post, in which should have been ignored. But nah, you deserve to be humiliated, degraded and dehumanized. You cannot prove one f--king thing and you have to LIE about it. I asked you where Leviticus 20:10 showed ANY love. Naturally since your brain is that of a stiff and you don't know your religion and you have to guess and it AND you believe in its suffering, hate, paoin and evil as that verse 100% represents, you didn't come up with the "love". Nor can you come up with ANY of the LOVE within ANY of the verses previously presented. That's YOUR fault for believing in an evil hateful god. Not mine. Forgiveness? What forgiveness in murdering children and babies and causing massive suffering unto them for 0 reason at all YOU TOTAL JERK? Your idiot Amphia friend thinks I'm being hypocritical and of course cannot prove it because I am far too intelligent and educated for you both.
Here's the massive difference between you and me... 1. I believe in peace, harmony, love, caring about each other, love kindness, etc. You don't. Its not in your blood. You believe in YOUR god which orders you to murder me and everybody else for simply not believing in him. 2. I have genuine friends and loved ones. Wow. You don't and it shows like an ingrown toenail for life. That's because I am honest and I ---never--- lie. I bluff, big difference, but that's only when I play poker.
Oh really? That's a good one "For example, there were two covenants - the covenant of the old and the covenant of the new." You show me where this exists. YOUR jesus cannot simply state he is the new ruler. Who put him in power? It---wasn't---god. AND your jesus broke several of your god's laws such as working on the sabbath proving that he is not the messiah. And YOU cannot even prove he ever existed, just like your god, NO ONE HAS EVER PROVED HE EXISTS.
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