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The Contender
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Where do you "GIVE" from?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/16/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,242 times Debate No: 35646
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
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SOME Biblical stories give wisdom to us ALL. We don't have to know God to know some teachings of Jesus. Can you tell me what is to be learned from this story?
I prefer an Atheist to take this challenge, sorry Christians.
NO belittling, degrading, disrespectful remarks against ME... being a Christian, please.

The Widow"s Offering
Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything"all she had to live on."
1)Why did Jesus sit and just watch? What was he observing?
2)Why did they point out there were 'rich people' making deposits? What is the significance?
3)Why did they point out the widow woman ? How much she gave?
4)Why did Jesus say she gave the most and how do you explain that?


Let me start by welcoming my opponent to DDO, and thanking her for graciously inviting me to face her in this debate. I have suggested using what I think is a more clearly stated resolution, but Pro is adamant that she wants this discussion to be centered on the questions posed in her opening.

I thank readers for your interest, but I impose a truly difficult request of you. Please put aside your personal bias, whether theist or atheist. Do not side with who you agree with, but rather who argues most convincingly. For the moment, consider Jesus objectively, as a literary character whose story is described in a series of books, and nothing more, unless it can be logically and reasonably be justified that we should. For the purpose of this debate wipe the slate clean. You have no opinion one way or the other regarding the divinity of this book, no baggage but also no advantages. Close your eyes for a moment and just try. Atheists too! Try. Okay. Now we are ready to debate.

1) Even as a boy, the Jesus character in the Bible was a young scholar that was constantly preoccupied with learning Jewish theology (Luke 2:41-52)[1]. He seems to have also been a keen observer of human behavior, which appears to be what he was doing in this instance.

2) As the son of a carpenter, and as a Jewish commoner in a Roman occupied province, Jesus enjoyed no privilege or benefit from a social order which shamelessly and mercilessly excluded him, despite his merit and high intelligence. Unable to ascend to wealth or status in a material sense in that system, but capable of so much more, he creatively and imaginatively developed his own alternate reality, one which was inherently dismissive to the wealth and power in a traditional sense which he could never have, trumped it to infinity in the unseen afterlife, and glorified the lowly, owntrodden, and victimized people which he more closely identified with and empathized with.

3) As I mentioned in 2, because of his own disenfranchisement and frustrated ambition, Jesus was more inclined to relate to and identify with the poor and the weak rather than the wealthy and the mighty who he views as oppressors and thus disdains. His influence over the masses gave him an extremely potent, if untraditional, kind of power. Jesus himself was probably convinced that he was the messiah and the Son of God, perhaps even the creator of the universe itself. Great and powerful men are especially susceptible to these kinds of delusions (examples will gladly be provided upon request), and as his influence grew it should not be surprising that he fell prey to this self-deception, especially as he had been born during a time period when the Jews were eagerly awaiting a messiah as promised in their prophesies. Even though his non-violent approach isn't what most had expected, for the ignorant, superstitious, and downtrodden Jewish Roman subjects who followed him, it offered at least some kind of abstract and mysterious hope.

4) For the rich, even donating an amount hundreds of times what that old woman offered wouldn’t put a dent in their treasury, and they wouldn’t even notice the loss. For her, even that small amount represented a far higher percentage of her income, and thus a truly great sacrifice. You can’t fund any operation on that kind of meager donation, but it provided a powerful symbol for the attractive and almost democratic idea that everyone has something to contribute; everyone counts. Jesus was a gifted and compassionate thinker and communicator who was ahead of his time in some ways. Nevertheless, as obvious as I think this may be, I do feel obliged to note that there’s a big difference between being a gifted philosopher who makes unsupported, unscientific, unfalsifiable, and thus unconvincing claims, and actually being an all-powerful creator of time and space. That's a pretty far leap. Care to try to getting us there, Pro?


Debate Round No. 1


rhondadpattison forfeited this round.


I assume my mindblowing observations have stricken my opponent with severe headaches. In all seriousness though, I do hope she feels better soon. I've delayed posting until towards the end of my time in the hopes that she will be able to recover in time to pick up the debate in the next round. If she chooses to continue, then I ask voters to disregard this round entirely; count this as if it were only a two round debate. Thanks everyone, and best wishes.
Debate Round No. 2


LOL! calculatedr1sk! MINDBLOWING, huh? hahaha
Me thinks you overlooked a whole bunch but that is what I want to save for another debate... same topic... just give me time to get better.
My fever spiked at 102.1 but the headaches returned making me sick to my stomach... so I will not continue this debate in such condition. I hope you understand.
Like I said, I copied this debate & ur 1st answer and it is safe for when we pick this up again....
Thanks everyone for your tolerance/patience <3


Oh of course, I understand. My debate skills are sickeningly awesome! :)

Glad I could give you a laugh in your time of stress, take all the time you need to get better. I definitely do look forward to re-debating this and hearing your rebuttal. In the meantime, stay hydrated and dream of puppies. Best wishes to you and your family.

Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by calculatedr1sk 5 years ago
I've updated my messaging so that now anyone at all can message me, I hope that fixes it. Since we added as friends it still should have let you message earlier though, so I don't know what was going on there... weird.

Anyway, feel better and good luck with the family situation.
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
calcuatedr1sk - I copy/pasted our current statements to my page (private) so that next week we can pick up where we left off... you won't even have to rack ur brain for ur first response... or you can add to it/change it then... if you want.

My fever is higher today but the headache has gone... IDK whats up.... just STRESS I think... this has not been a good week. "family" issues....
I appreciate you...
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
calculatedr1sk -
So how do I postpone this discussion? I'm new here... IDK the protocol.
Everytime I try to message you it says you are not taking messages at this time....
I would really like to message you so we can talk a bit....
Posted by calculatedr1sk 5 years ago
I'm sorry to hear of your discomfort and I hope you feel better, Rhonda. There's no way to pause it I'm afraid, but we can always re-debate the topic later.

I tend to avoid facebook these days and don't spend much time there anymore. I don't know why you weren't able to message me, I get messages from others... strange. But at any rate, please feel free to message or leave me a comment on any of my debates and when I see it we can rematch. Be well.
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
I don't know what to do here... is there a way to postpone this discussion calculatedr1sk?
It seems I have gone from bad t worse... now running a temp & my head is exploding. I cannot continue at this time. I DO want to continue this when I am feeling better though, FOR SURE!
I've tried to message you but you messages are still turned off.
Do you have a Facebook page? I do... just type in my name... it would be nice to friend you there also.
I also have a page...

It would be nice if you joined me there also.
So for now, I must end this debate, regretfully...
I DO want to pick it back up... maybe next week, as I do have a lot of things to show you.
Please contact me...
Thank you for being so nice to me, BTW. God bless...
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
calculatedr1sk.... i'm sorry I have been on the go all morning and have just settled back in. I am so tired I think I am too tired right this minute to focus my brain on this.
I WILL get to it later BC I have a bunch of stuff to tell you! ButI must rest my brain right now.
I accepted ur friendship request and tried to message you, Thank you :)

TTYL, OK (y)
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
In fact if we isolate any of those we will not be tackling the riddle of my original post. I think I have made it clear to everyone my stance on Jesus & Morals, and we can tackle all 3 of those topics at a later time if you want... but for now let's focus on this one.
My stance in this riddle is the is a great moral lesson to be learned in this story. I'm sure Christians SEE it with eyes wide open... what I am wondering is if an atheist can figure it out.
I have provided the questions that will lead to an answer... IF you open your heart to the secrets of it!
Don't you like riddles?
Posted by calculatedr1sk 5 years ago
Also, sources are strongly encouraged, as two of the seven points voters can award are allocated to best sources. You can certainly use whatever links you like, but voters sometimes will punish debators for too much reliance on a single source, or relying too much on wikipedia, or dubious/biased blogs. If you check some of my previous debates, my strategy is to try to use 3 - 7 preferably neutral/academic sources per round, and sometimes this strategy has given me the edge to win debates I might otherwise have lost. You'll definitely want to start doing your research while you wait for me to post so that you'll be able to keep the sources category tied up.
Posted by calculatedr1sk 5 years ago
I believe I accurately represent your stance to be: Jesus is a perfect role model, we got our original morals from our creator God, IN Him there is solid moral teaching for all, in the bigger picture.
The "in the bigger picture" phrase is both ambiguous and extraneous, and I motion to strike it if we use this as a resolution. In fact, I make the recommendation that you choose only one of these three separate (related) positions to defend, which were:
i)Jesus is a perfect role model
ii)God is the original source of morals
iii)In Him there is solid moral teaching for all
With only 4000 words/round, you"re going to have a hard time proving and defending all three, plus if you succeed at proving one or more of the points but also seem to lose one or more of the points, voters will be confused about what to do. Arguing only one position for each debate is cleaner and more user friendly for the readers. Which of those three would you most prefer to discuss?
Posted by rhondadpattison 5 years ago
Thanks for the advise and it is my first time here... I also have never been on a formal debate site... though I have been debating on C vs A debate pages for over a year now. Up to about 4 months ago it was gratifying... but I've become bored with the monotony (same questions different day) and somehow I came upon this site.
I am a Christian, and not the type who say they are then behave like the devil! I also don't get into too much 'head knowledge'... as it fogs up the lens, I think!
I do know a little and am learning every day though...
My focus with this question is exactly what you pointed out! I do believe Jesus is a perfect role model and I do believe we got our original morals from our creator God, for IN Him I have found solid moral teaching that is just to all, in the bigger picture.
BTW... I have a tendency to use all caps a lot, but I assure you I am not yelling at you nor will I get upset at you. I would use a highlighter if I had that option...
If I get overwhelmed... I will say so and take a break. I love to use other Bible study links to help me learn & give opinions. I hope we're allowed to do that here.
Again, thanks for the kind introduction... I welcome your challenge.
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