The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
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The Contender
allistruth
Con (against)
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Why can't god tell us about itself by itself?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2021 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 370 times Debate No: 127680
Debate Rounds (4)
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backwardseden

Pro

Why does this god of the bible require a BOOK of all things to tell man about itself, Rather than itself telling us itself about itself? Or why does this supposed god of the bible only tell a few squeamish nerdy supposed prophets who may or may have not existed about themselves according to this BOOK and then expected them to spread the word about itself through them who probably almost certainly have gotten it wrong about this supposed whatever god rather than this supposed god spreading the word about itself by itself to all of mankind? If it can spread the word to a few moronic prophets, It most certainly can spread the word to everybody. Well that is only true if it is a genuine true god. Nah.
allistruth

Con

Why would God, The creator of the universe, The all-powerful, The all-knowing, Have to reveal himself in such a trivial way as writing, In a book? First, Assuming that there is such a God, And for all intents and purposes is the God proposed by Christianity, The actions that this God would take are seemingly mystical, Since He created time (if He did not, Then He would be subject to time, And therefore not be God. ) Since we are bonded by time, We cannot understand a state without time. So, Trying to understand God is very difficult, Which is why Christians are commanded to learn together, At church, Though most of the modern "churches" have become so juvenile that they no longer deserve the name. Unfortunately, Because fully understanding God is impossible, Most christians? Say that no attempt at understanding should be made, Which is completely wrong. After all, What idiot would blindly trust anything with no logical evidence?

The authors of the Old Testament were not randomly picked by God, They could see God, And wrote about Him. God is foundational, Not subjective, By definition. If He wasn"t, He wouldn"t be God. However, It is possible to close one"s eyes to reality, To curl up into a little ball and scream, Rather than be judged by the foundational truth. Which leaves another aspect of the truth to coax us out of our ball, And begin to open our eyes. But we must choose to do it. The Bible is one of the ways that the truth can reach us, Without blinding us. It is like a dream, So full of information it does not seem real, Or practical, And must only unfold a bit at a time, Otherwise we will be swamped, Burned, Judged, And end up back in our little ball, Which becomes a little smaller every time this happens.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"Why would God, The creator of the universe, The all-powerful, The all-knowing, Have to reveal himself in such a trivial way as writing, In a book? "
Exactly. That's what I've been saying for well over a decade now. Also no genuine true god ---ever--- would.
However, We, That's both you and I can dump the chivalry of "The creator of the universe, The all-powerful, The all-knowing" goobly gak until this whatever unproven storybook character fabled fantasy undefined whatever supposed "god" of print only from a BOOK, Namely the bible, That nobody in the entire existence of the human race has ever been able to prove even exists until it's proven that it exists in which case it is an impossibility that this whatever unproven so-called "god" can ever prove its existence in the first place.
Oh yes and this unproven whatever tinsel mind storybook fabled fantasy "god" is ab-so-lu-te-ly bound by time. The idiot bible even proves it yet how many so-called "christians" disagree with that notion? That's one of many ways to prove that the supposed unproven god of the printed bible is not a god.
I also agree that many so-called christians (there's no such thing as a christian
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=x-slAgzJmdU - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus? )
as all christians disobey christ's laws as set down by their savior and they don't get it! Indeed they do what they want, How they want for whatever suits them best for their wants, Needs, And desires and they chuck the rest of the idiot bible into the trash which is why there's over 33, 830 denominations of christianity.
Trying to understand their storybook character fabled fantasy "god" FROM A BOOK of all things is not only difficult, But it is an impossibility.
Yep. No logical evidence. However, It's much worse than that because there's also no thinking, Rationalizing, Reasoning, Nor common sense values.
Please tc and haveth thee fun!
allistruth

Con

Thank you, This seems like it will be a lot of fun.
Your main point, I think, Is that no God would ever reveal Him or Herself to humanity in such a ridiculous fashion as through a piece of literature, And the God that would is laughable, Mere human superstition. I can certainly see how you would arrive at that conclusion. After all, Why would the highest be revealed as the lowest?
However, That logic seems to be faulty in multiple ways, A few of which I wish to articulate.
1. Forgetting the idea of a Christian God, Which has become very psychologically programmed in the last few decades, Wouldn't the foundational truth be constantly revealing itself in every way possible? Through patterns, Through life, Through death, Through beauty, Through everything we see as "good. " Therefore, The truth must in some way reveal itself through literature, Which is really the articulation of pattern.
2. The Bible, As literature, Is the compilation of human observation and ideas from a point in time very deeply embedded in history, To a point in time that changed the entire structure of history itself.
3. The word superstition, Or fantasy, Implies that gods and fairy tale creatures are figments of the human imagination. But is that not an even more fantastical idea than the idea of an existing God? The human mind is a wonderful thing, But I have seen no evidence that it can create from nothing. Even the most awful and amazing ideas are grounded in truth.

So, We seem to be left with two options for the origination of the Bible.

1. A conspiracy of minds across time and space that created a book so powerful that it caused millions of people to be killed, Maimed, And tortured rather than deny it, A book that was completely based on the premise of a "god" that the minds pulled out of thin air and gave life too.
2. Minds across history that observed and interacted with the foundational truth, Or God, And wrote about their experiences in a layered, Incredibly complicated book (which is only what you would expect from encountering the truth, ) which compelled people to seek out this truth at the expense of everything, For what matters in the face of absolute truth?

I look forward to hearing what you have to say on the topic next. I"m sorry that I could not address the issue of God and time, But I don"t want to bring too many variables into this equation. I would love to debate about it another time though.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Oooo, Lotsa subjects to be explored in this argument. So if it seems like I'm jumping around from subject to subject (and I am) sorry, Well shoot me with a pus bucket of hamster wheel death squads.

Yes, Thank you for someone who is intelligent and educated enough to know that no true genuine god in no possible way would ever be stupid enough or ignorant enough to ever use text/the written word. It's a supermassive fatal flaw that shows that whatever supposed "god" that apparently uses text/ the written word does---not---exist.
"After all, Why would the highest be revealed as the lowest? "
Well well worded and true.
The thing that is so nerving is trying to tell and or convince someone else of that who'd completely brainwashed who's comebacks are so shockingly trivial and minute that any preschooler should easily be able to figure this kind of thing out.
1. It's hardest to convince the teens (roughly 14 - 16, In other words, Those that believe that they know everything that there is to know), As they are pretty much set with their brainwashed indoctrination, Though thankfully not all.
2. The hardest to convince and wow, Have you gone through it? , Are those who believe in Islam who ---never--- get it that their quran is not absolute. The thing is, It's only been translated into 114 languages. Well gosh, Golly with a sprinkle of gee, They don't get that within these transfers of language some of these messages are going to be lost, Most certainly changed, And corrupted. Not only that, 114 languages? So according to them, Their unproven storybook character fabled fantasy god of print only from a book in which case nobody in the entire existence of the human race has ever been able to prove exists, Their whatever supposed god does not wish to get known.

So back to what you were saying. . .
1. "Which has become very psychologically programmed in the last few decades"
Mmmm. I believe that it always has ever since its primordial soup of invention.
"Wouldn't the foundational truth be constantly revealing itself in every way possible? Through patterns, Through life, Through death, Through beauty, Through everything we see as "good. "
That in which you are referring to is Gaia Mother Earth/ Mother Nature/ Mother Earth or whatever you wish to call her. That
I can agree with.
2. "The Bible, As literature, Is the compilation of human observation and ideas from a point in time very deeply embedded in history, To a point in time that changed the entire structure of history itself. "
Well, Sure. This BOOK is so great with its manipulation that anybody would believe anything. People believed in Nazi power. People believe in Donald manure spread toilet dust Trump. People believe in guns.
Here's a couple of vidies. . .
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=NEHZrpzMhN4 - 10 reasons why the bible isn't a well-written book
4. "It's not easy to understand. We shouldn't need theologians and pastors to explain all of this material to us if god felt it was that important. " contuinuing "If you show me 100 different christians, I'll show you 100 different christianities. If all these people think god is saying very different things, That's partially his fault as a communicator. "
6. "It doesn't make any clear predictions. " I'm sure you knew that one as well. Wow is that a supermassive fatal flaw that I've used numerous times.
7. "It lacks knowledge that humans at the time could not have had. The bible is only as accurate as of the people of the time. Isn't that a coincidence? It says nothing about modern astronomy or mathematics or medicine. "
8. "The characters make no sense. If you read really great books the main characters are very complex. You know the heroes often have flaws, The bad guys have good intentions. In that sense, The bible doesn't even bother with complex characters. "
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=1qR8XslmofQ - How to get christians to understand biblical hypocrisy

3. Mmm. Superstition. Uh oh. Matt can really be a bully at times, Use every 4 letter word in the English language, However, I've not experienced him ever be wrong.
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=JZyic1xkLZM - Believing Miracles Cause Events Is Justified | Mark-RI | The Atheist Experience 24. 27
Matt Dillahunty: "Until somebody demonstrates that the supernatural exists and can in fact interact with the natural world, You are not justified in appealing to that as an explanation. "
Caller: "If that something existed that would not be explicable through normal science, Because if it was then the event would be natural and not supernatural. "
Matt "No. If there"s something supernatural, That"s where you went wrong. Because you are inferring something about something that you have no evidence for. You don"t know what it"s limits are. You don"t know what X is. You can"t tell me anything about it. And yet you"re trying to by saying if X is supernatural, Then there can"t be a natural explanation for it. But there"s no way there"s no way to demonstrate there CANNOT be a natural explanation. The only thing we can ever do is show there"s not CURRENTLY not a natural explanation. So you"re hiding a big argument from ignorance fallacy in this model. My definition is really simple" Before we get to use the supernatural as a potential candidate for an observation we must first demonstrate that the supernatural exists and could be a potential explanation for it. "

Hmmm, When you say "But I have seen no evidence that it can create from nothing. "
Stephen Hawking and his colleague have invented a mathematical equation where something comes from nothing.
https://www. Christianpost. Com/news/stephen-hawking-something-out-of-nothing-is-possible. Html - Stephen Hawking Explains Creation, Big Bang Sans God (there's several articles like this)
Also Lawrence Krauss has the same belief.
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=46sKeycH3bE - Lawrence Krauss: A Universe from Nothing
Here's something else too. . . As an example the maya invented the number 0, Nothing. Before that number was invented they would have had to have thought of nothing to have originally conceptualized it and thus invented it. There's many more examples like that where something does come from nothing.

"So, We seem to be left with two options for the origination of the Bible. "
Oh well it's not a god. We both know that scuffle mark. It's writers of a long string of hand-me-downs "as a means of controlling people. " George Carlin. He's right.
I mean there is no definition for a god because no human has ever been in the company of a god and been able to prove it. Nobody can test, Show the characteristics, Nor can anyone demonstrate a god. It is impossible because nobody can define a god because none has been defined by anyone in the history of the human race because no god has ever been seen, Defined, Told to by anyone through talking about/ oratory, Written about from a god's point of view as far as to how it can be tested, Demonstrated and thus defined and the characteristics of a god to be proven. So nobody as a believer has any evidence to back up any claim to thus prove that any god from any religion exists.
"If you cannot give a definition for what you believe, Then you really don"t believe in anything. " Tracie Harris
She's right. I believe in plenty of things. I'm sure you do as well. It's those who are religious who nearly 100% of the time cannot answer the simplest of questions. "Why believe? "

Religion is invented as power. And then comes, Though not with all, But nearly all, That power trickles down to "fear". And then that power and fear, Though not with all, But nearly all, That power and fear trickles down to "control".

As a signing off point for this argument. . . Yeah and when it comes down to it, The unproven supposed god of the bible can ---never--- prove its existence. After all, It lied according to the text/ written word. So how can it thus prove itself with any kind of truth to anyone?
* Ezekiel 20:25-26 "Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, And judgments whereby they should not live; 26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, In that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, That I might make them desolate, To the end that they might know that I am the LORD. "
* Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, And I will stretch out my hand upon him, And will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. "
* 1 Kings 22:23 "Now therefore, Behold, The LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, And the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. "
* 2 Chronicles 18:22 "Now therefore, Behold, The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, And the Lord hath spoken evil against thee. "
* 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, That they should believe a lie:"

Well gtg please always tc and haveth thee fun!
allistruth

Con

In reading your statement, I came up with six main points I think you were driving at that I would like to debate. Excuse me if I miss any other points, Summarizing any argument tends to leave behind a lot of things. Anyway, Here we go!

Point one: No true God would reveal Himself through a book.

This statement should be changed to, "No true God would only reveal Himself in a book, But the true God would reveal Himself in every way, Including books. " Why? The truth is revealed in everything, For everything is based on the truth. Human minds tend to fragment the truth, Leading to confusion and discord, But also better understanding, Since a mind cannot comprehend the truth in its entirety, For it is too vast. Each mind contains a different variation of the fragments. When different minds come together, So do the fragments, Making a more complete version of the truth. The more minds that join, The more their image of the truth grows into something resembling the foundational truth. The Bible probably contains the most amount of fragments in one place on earth by definition, For it is a record of minds meeting and combining fragments into an image of the truth, The minds being bound together by their culture, And bound permanently through the art of writing. Since the truth is so immense, It was condensed together into incredibly deep stories that some might call superstition (the creation stories, The tower, The flood), But others knew as archetypes. It was also recorded in the forms of poetry, Of narrative, And as a series of laws.
To say that the Bible doesn"t contain truth merely because it is a book is rather ridiculous. Think of how many books are used to store other truths, From the highly objective world of science, To the beautifully subjective world of art and drama. Perhaps the written word is not perfect, But it is powerful, And thus true. For truth is the most powerful thing in the world, And all that is powerful is deeply grounded in truth.
The Bible should not be ignored because it is not a scientific work, Either. Scientific work is powerful- but it is only one half of the story. This is because it is purely objective, Lacking the complete subjective realm that it depends on. Not only that, Scientific truth of a different sort than the subjective, Or religious truth, Simply because of the scientific process. The process strips subjectivity away, And so loses half of life. It only has the power to remove lies, Not to prove truths. Of course, One could change the definition of truth itself, But imagine practically applying it to one"s life. To constantly be looking to disprove one"s self, To try to live as objectively as possible, Should not be and will not be attempted, For it would be pure hell. People are drawn to the deeper, More subjective truths, That are articulated in poetry, Novels, And plays. The power they hold is astounding, They capture people's heart and soul, And the only way to do that is to find some truth deep in a person"s soul, And to articulate it for them. Perhaps the Bible is not scientific- which is not surprising since those who wrote it were not scientists- but the objectivity that science brings is only half of the picture.

Point two: If the Bible was divine, It would be easy to understand.

This is an extremely illogical argument. Truth is complicated. It is complicated, And multi-faceted, And fully incomprehensible. To make it less complicated in order to make it easier to understand would be to make it untrue. Truth must be truth, And to grow in understanding and belief of it is the meaning of life. Good God, It takes a lifetime to understand just one part of one facet of the truth! Read one of Shakespeare"s plays, And then read a Reader"s Digest of the same play, And you will get the picture. The truth cannot be simplified without making it less true. This cannot be stressed enough: Truth is not easy!

Point three: The Bible is propaganda put out by conspiracy theorists.

To understand this one, Propaganda must be defined. Propaganda is the distortion of truth by an entity to achieve that entity"s own ends. So, All propaganda must have an element of truth in it. How, Then, Would propaganda be distinguished from the truth which it so cleverly twists? One simple way is to ask this question: "Is the truth being told because it is true, Or for the speaker"s personal benefit? " Of course, Smart propagandists will make it seem as if there is no personal benefit. A good way to check that is to see if the person is willing to put their life in the balance. If they are, They are probably advocating for a truth that is bigger than they are. Now, Just stop there and think about how many authors of the Bible died for what they did and said. How about people that were tortured, Thrown in prison, Underwent the most extreme social humiliation and disgust". Pretty much every terrible thing that could happen to a person happened to "one of them Bible folks. "
Another test of propaganda: "Does it stand the test of time? " That which is passed on from generation to generation- especially in cultures with little or no means of writing- is that which is important for life, Which happens to be part of the definition of truth. Propaganda always fails that test, For it is not important for achieving anyone"s goals but perhaps the one person that started the rumor.
As for the conspiracy element, That is quite a conspiracy that stretches through time and space, From mind to mind, From age to age. That"s more incredible than the idea of the transcendent!

Point four: God can not be proven.

Nothing can be proven, Except for the fact that nothing can be proven. That"s not how science works. Science is the great destroyer, Not a creator. It can demolish lies, It can"t do anything to the truth. But since there are an infinite number of lies, Science cannot destroy them all. Science works using time and experimentation, Which can make a theory strong and powerful, And gives it a great deal of the truth, But cannot prove it. Since the idea of the transcendent or spiritual has never been disproven, It is in a way scientifically "true. " Perhaps some people might consider the fact that the transcendent can never be put in an 100% controlled experiment environment means that it is not true, And so can not be depended on, But so many things in life fall into that category that one could not live with that mindset very long. It"s actually quite funny to think about scientifically testing every chair in a lab to see if it can be sat on, Or never taking a walk without testing every step- never mind, It"s impossible.

Point five: Religion was invented as a means of controlling people

If the Bible was invented to control people, It would have disappeared long ago. Power for the sake of power is not powerful, For it is not based in truth. Truth for truth"s sake is the most powerful thing in the world, Which has caused anything that appears to be abused over and over again, Most noticeably in the case of the Bible.

Point six: The Bible contradicts itself.

The best point made in the argument, And one that very great minds debate about constantly.
A few reasons for this mystery:
The most commonly read translations of the Bible are extremely new, And so have not been refined by the test of time. Therefore, It is highly probable that they are somewhat faulty.
As the truth is foundational, It is impossible to fully understand the variety of ways that it interacts with mankind.
Those verses that seemingly contradict each other all stood the test of time, Showing that they were all important for life in some way or fashion.
Some surface contradiction is necessary to keep those shallow readers from misinterpreting the Bible.

One more quick thing: Plenty of people believe in things they can"t articulate. It all comes down to what belief is. If it is something only involving logic, And not action, Then it is not really belief, It is knowledge. Belief causes a person to act, Even if they cannot articulate why they are acting. Take children for an example. They are constantly doing things they don"t understand. Just ask them why they are doing something, And they will quickly run out of logical explanations. Or even adults: If you seriously question an adult as to why they even get out of bed in the morning, They will run out of answers. It all comes down to belief, Every action is based in belief.
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Greetings! I hope that you are doing well! Sorry it took me so long for me to respond.
And btw, I must say that you have a natural gift for the way you compose your words in your debates. It is of natural eloquence in which case I appreciate. Thanx.

Oh absolutely not williteh I excuseth thee for making miss stakes! After all how many miss-steaks did this supposed neanderthal christ "god" make? After all, It created man - correct? Especially with all of his fatal miss-steaks such as cancer, Broken legs, Heart attacks, Covid, Smallpox, Etc etc etc.
So yeah, Of course yee and everybody else is forgiven for making miss-steaks, Including myself in which case, You know what? If I make some mistakes, Yeah, Damn right, I own up to them unlike quite a few that don't. And I apologize at that level.

OK moving on.
"Point one: No true God would reveal Himself through a book. "
with the addon of "text/ the written word".
"No true God would only reveal Himself in a book, But the true God would reveal Himself in every way, Including books. "
I have to disagree with that title right there unless you specify the "christian" god. Also, You describe "himself". It s not known that the "christian whatever unproven god is a "himself". For me personally, And yeah, Call it dumping the masculinity head trip ego that this written "god" has, And calling it an "it".

"The Bible probably contains the most amount of fragments in one place on earth by definition, "
Yes-it-does. So by that very obvious statement, A true genuine god would obviously know this and would not use text. Also with everything you've said, It doesn't matter what man can comprehend, If it's too little, That's god's fault for creating man to not be able to absorb what god's commandments are and thus carry them out - especially through a book. But here's the thing. . . This tepid s--t of a god did it through only a handful of PROPHETS of all things (I'm assuming you are speaking directly of the christian god) rather than communicating TO EVERYBODY and it did it is one little splotch of land which makes it undetectable and who is supposed to listen to them and take their word at it especially when it comes from a BOOK and some of them were directly lied to in the first place by this whatever unproven god so what exactly is the truth when if true this whatever unproven god if a god can speak to everybody.
In other words, It doesn't matter what the capabilities of man are because this whatever "god" who created man can most definitively reshape the mind, Well that is if it wants to, To absorb what this "god" is and not do it through text/ the written word so man can obviously point blank get it wrong especially thorough the thousands of years. That's god's fault in which case both you and I know, Nobody can even prove it exists, Not man's.
See, Even if different minds come together, And they don't in this case because there's no consensus within religion as everybody has a different definition for a god which is why there's no definition for a god and at any rate, No god has defined itself, So how can anybody know what a god truly is?
You mentioned it best "the creation stories, The tower, The flood" are stories. And if you go through them, How many of them are proven and how many through varied translations after translations after translations, After updates after updates after updates are correct through their messages as the interpreters MUST get it incorrect at one point or another as they are human and make mistakes that millions read, After copies after copies after copies, After dead languages after dead languages after dead languages that have died off actually agree with each other, In which case there's no original in the first place so there's no foundation for christianity anyway. . . So yeah, NOBODY interprets correctly.
Doesn't a true genuine "god" see through these supermassive fatal flaws and would never use text/ the written word?

"It was also recorded in the forms of poetry, Of narrative, And as a series of laws. "
Well that would make things even worse. Why not make it straightforward so EVERYBODY can understand it?
https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=KVjmdjSsqZ0&t=163s -"Christians don't understand the character of God" | Stefan - Brooklyn, NY | Atheist Experience #668
"If god is all knowing and he knows the future of all events and he wrote a book that can only be interpreted as if it endorses slavery and if its heinous violence against your children against your neighbors" how could a god be that omnipotent and devise a book where we can"t distinguish between the law of Israel and god"s law? I mean their interwoven where we have metaphor and fact and nobody can distinguish the two. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take figuratively. We don"t know what we"re supposed to take literally. Was it actually a tree? I mean come on. How can anyone distinguish this. I mean come on. It doesn"t make any sense. It doesn"t matter how its translated. It doesn"t matter what version. If it was written by an omnipotent being there would be ONE VERSION. And there would be only ONE WAY to interpret it because it would be written well. " Aron Ra
Actually it wouldn"t be written at all. What"s wrong with your god comin" down and talking to people? "Hey you know some of that stuff that"s in the book? I"m here to correct it. " Matt Dillahunty

The bible doesn't contain truth because it comes from something that is a superior ego god complex in which case the bible is entirely about and nothing else which the main objective of faith is "believe in me or else". That's completely bankrupt and immoral. NOBODY needs or requires a bible for truth.

"The Bible should not be ignored because it is not a scientific work, "
OK well think about this. . . How many genocides did this "god" commit? It approves of rape, Slavery, Hates women, Murders babies, Children, Pregnant mothers (so it's clearly not pro-life as many so-called christians would believe it to be), Issues death warrants for those who blaspheme, Works on the sabbath, Curse at their parents, Commits adultery, Kills for whatever reason (that's 5 of the 10 commandments), Is gay, Does not worship it etc. Indeed these so-called whatever christians that can't even prove that their whatever supposed "god" exists, Completely ignore all the horrific crap in THEIR noodle brained texts/ written word and they do what they want, How they want, For what suit them best for their wants, Needs, And desires and they trash the rest of their bible's as a writeoff. Nice and neat. And of course, When questioned on it, They take either a super aggressive stance on it and do not admit it has taken place or say "well it was justified" for whatever reasoning in which case there's no justification, Or they take a defensive posturing and claim to not know anything about it and or with this type of person, Sure why not, Some do still clam "it's "god" it can do whatever it wants! " WHAT?

"Point two: If the Bible was divine, It would be easy to understand. "
No not really the point. A genuine true god would make this BOOK understandable to everyone. But not really. Because it wouldn't use text/ written word in the first place because this BOOK would require constant updates, Translations etc. AND question: How is a BOOK divine?
You're right. Truth is not easy. So once again why would a genuine true "god" use text/ the written word to make things much---more---difficult especially for such a lowly creature such as man when this supposed unproven whatever god is communicating it's messages to man so man can misinterpret these messages through the worst way possible in text/ the written word as a true genuine god MUST know this? If it doesn't know this, Then it's not a god.

"Point three: The Bible is propaganda put out by conspiracy theorists. "
Gotta agree with that one. Religion is a form of control. Always has been. Always will be.
"A good way to check that is to see if the person is willing to put their life in the balance. "
"More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. " George Carlin. He's right.
Look at Hong Xiuquan and the Taiping rebellion. Hong knew of himself to be the younger brother of christ. He systematically preached the bible as he saw fit. It is estimated that at least 17 million died.
Hmmm, Well the propaganda has stood the test of time throughout the bible. The sneezerag christ is a monument to propaganda if there ever was one. Especially it coming back and saving us all from our sins. Oh please.
Sure there's those Donald Trump conspirators who still believe he was chosen by god that STILL IS our president and will take this country into well whatever.

"Point four: God can not be proven. "
It's the reverse. God cannot prove itself.
However I must concur even though nearly all will disagree. "That's not how science works. " There are certain things that can be proven, Otherwise why bother even blurting out anything to anyone? We'd all be standing stone-cold, Deaf, Mute, Blind, Without touch, Without the ability to hear, Etc.
"It"s actually quite funny to think about scientifically testing every chair in a lab to see if it can be sat on, "
Yep.

"Point five: Religion was invented as a means of controlling people"
"If the Bible was invented to control people, It would have disappeared long ago. "
I gotta disagree with that one. Faith does control people through believability. Fear is a very strong emotion as well as power. Once again, The bible is a superior ego god complex with one helluva lot of terror and of course the "faith" element of "believe in me or else".

Point six: The Bible contradicts itself.
Oh yeah. It most certainly does again and again with at least 1, 000 of them making the bible truly unreadable.
https://infidels. Org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions. Html (The Secular Web - nearly everything you could possibly want is here)

I'm out of space.
tc and have fun!
allistruth

Con

Why thank you! Encouragement is delightful.
I think that I finally got to the bottom of the argument. Your issue is with the idea of how the Bible came to be. Or, Expressed another way, You have a problem with the thought that God directly authored the Bible. (By the way, I refer to God as masculine out of habit, I believe God to be both masculine and feminine. ) That problem is certainly understandable.
Before continuing, I want to insert a warning: this will wander here and there a bit, I intend to cover a lot of material. Also, You won"t hear many of these opinions in a church: that"s because they are old, Deep ideas I have done my best to bring together into one coherent meta-idea, And quite probably have failed horribly. But one must start somewhere!
BTW, I want to address this main idea first, As it is the basis for Christianity. The other arguments are important, But I think I will leave them until next time, As I just don"t have the room to do them justice.

The idea that the Bible is authored by God by putting pen to paper and sending down the finished product on a divine wind is absolutely ridiculous. In fact, I have never argued that He did. The reason for that common misconception is because- like all misconceptions- there is a far deeper truth involved that can be completely mixed up if you try hard enough. The truth is something like this, Although it is practically impossible to articulate. The Bible in a sense was written by God, Not in the way described above, But in a much deeper way. In fact, The word written is very misleading. The Bible came into being because of God, But God did not say "abracadabra" and poof! It existed. It"s so hard to explain. You see, When God is, It can"t be described, Because that which is simply is, Defying adjectives and such. Thus, Everything that is comes from God, Not because everything is God- nonsensical doctrine- but because God must be in everything that is for it to be. That"s why God is the foundational truth upon which everything rests.

Make sure that you do not refer back to what you think is Christianity when you read this, And say that this is not a Christian argument. Christianity has thousands of deviations all over the globe, It also has ten thousand different ways of saying the same thing. Unfortunately, People don"t know what they are saying most of the time, Leading to great confusion and separation. Every religion is imperfect, They always have been and always will be, Because all religions come from people, All people are religious, And all people are imperfect. Christianity is the most perfect of the imperfections, Just as the Bible is the most perfect of all the imperfections that are works of literature.

Everyone is religious, And everyone intuitively knows what the foundational truth is. After all, How does a person of one religion attack another religion? By either accusing the other person"s God as being immoral or impractical, Or accusing the person as immoral or impractical. It"s so outrageously funny! They are both acknowledging the one true God by making that criticism, The one they both should be worshiping, But squabbling about whose idea of God is better. It"s like two children fessing up to mother about a fight they had. Inevitably, The lovely phrase "He/she started it" will come up, Which translated means something along the lines of "Yeah, We are both nasty little buggers that deserve to be punished, But hey, He"s still worse! " Great job, Kid. Stellar way of putting things. See, One cannot say something is wrong without appealing to something higher to compare it with. Otherwise, It is personal preference, And isn"t worth a penny. Saying that a god is immoral or otherwise incorrect is in fact saying that it is lower than God.

Using this discovery, A list can be put together of God"s characteristics, Using the principle of morality and opposition to non-divinity.
God is (remember, This is the same as saying what the foundational truth or moral law is):
All-powerful
All-encompassing
Just
Completely real
The opposite of evil
Timeless
The highest

Now it is pretty easy to see how religions come into being. The founders saw this law acting forcefully on others, As well as themselves, Observed its power, And extracted from their observations some better understanding of the law, And wrote down their thoughts. If the thoughts contained some element of truth, People recognised and accepted the truth, But discarded the rest. As the truth was adapted, A culture and tradition of people that applied the truth emerged. Even if the truth was twisted by the power-hungry, Those that knew the truth could straighten the tradition out again, By their intuitive knowledge of the truth. As others participated in the tradition, Their thoughts were added by the same process, Growing a tradition that contained more and more of the truth. The older the tradition, And the more participants, The more true the tradition becomes. All religious texts are formed in this manner, And kept true by those who search for the patterns of truth. Powerful indeed! The Bible, As the oldest text, With the largest number of people participating in the tradition, Is naturally the most true. The fact that it began in the middle east is irrelevant. Everything must start at one point in time and space. Why Judaism came the closest to the truth of any religion is a mystery, But one religion was bound to at some point.

Of course, The natural sequel to that argument is how and why the truth would manifest itself in the physical world, Or put another way, The reason for Christ.

Since the highest is truth, Or morality, And humans constantly act because of this moral law, It makes sense that humans came from this law or truth. If so, Then humanity is in a real fix, For every single human has disobeyed the moral law in 1, 000 of the most creatively despicable ways. Since the truth is just, The twisters of it will face consequences. No one can get away with twisting the fabric of reality, And humans seem to have an inner drive to do just that. Why? To be able to obey the truth completely, One must be able to disobey the truth fully, And have the choice between obedience and disobedience. Otherwise, Humanity would not exist, Only harmless little puppets on strings, Made to dance to a tune. So humanity had its choice: and chose to act in spiteful disregard to the truth. Humans have been twisting reality ever since, Knowing that they shouldn"t but doing it anyway, Knowing that there will be a reckoning, But not caring. For reality is so big that anyone who twists it even the slightest bit will be swallowed whole. Thus, Humanity is doomed, Seemingly irreversibly, For there is not a single human who can break the trend and once more live completely morally. This is where Christ comes in, And it gets completely crazy.
This guy showed up one time a while back, Who had this problem with the government, And got killed for breaking one of their laws. End of story? Not quite. See, This guy had these followers who began spreading the rumor that the guy was the son of God come to save humanity from their impending doom. The government told this group to shut up or die, Cause they were attracting a big following, But the people didn"t shut up, And every time one was killed, Seven more would take his place. The people didn"t even seem to care about dying, As long as they could tell some more people their story! Who even was this guy, This person who could start such a movement? His followers were even spreading the story that he had risen from the dead! Who was he? In his lifetime, He was the greatest lecturer around, Drawing crowds numbering in the tens of thousands. People took his words to heart, Too, Selling all they owned just to be able to follow him around. If he had stopped there, He probably would have been fine. But he had this absolutely insane idea that he was the son of God, Which ended up getting him killed. It was against the law to claim divinity. So this guy, Liked and respected, Ended up dying in a gruesomely horrific way because he thought that he was the physical representation of the foundational truth- and believed it! Not only that, He was reported of performing miracles in front of tens and thousands of eyewitnesses! What was going on? Then he was killed, And three days later, His followers started spouting the story that he had risen from the dead, Which wasn't the best move in that political climate. What was he? Insane? And really insane, Like the sort of person who thinks that they are a potted plant? He could have been a demon, The only sort of thing that could successfully masquerade itself as the son of God in human form. But most fantastical- and yet most likely of all- he could really have been the Son of God, In human form. It"s insane-absolutely staggering- but what else could make people behave in the way that they did but the most foundational truth?

But this isn"t really logical. After all, Why would God have to die to save humanity? That seems counter-productive. This idea is really deep, But part of it has to do with the "perfect human. " If man can be perfect, And man is perfect, Then there must be a way for man to return to perfection. All it takes is one man to live perfectly, Even with every tragedy that the world can throw at him. That man must be aligned to God, However. He (again, Masculine pronouns out of habit) must be God and man, Just as man is supposed to be. Unfortunately, Man is so turned away from God that his very self is corrupted and imperfect, Taking God Himself to remake man. It took one man to show how to live, Remaking humanity through self-torture and denail and betrayal, It is up to the rest to follow. Plenty of adventure, Pain, And suffering down that route, Hurray! Those are the consequences of trying to fix reality before it crashes and kills people. The tool to fix it is now widely available, But only a few will want to pick it up (no wonder)for only those who accept their imperfections can use it. However, The consequence of not using it is having reality crash in on you, Which is fatal. I wouldn"t recommend it.

These are the only points of Christianity which really matter: You are fatally flawed and sadistically enjoy twisting reality, You must accept responsibility for your actions, You must try to fix your actions and live in a way that doesn"t twist reality, You can only do that by following in the footsteps of the perfect man, And you cannot do it alone. All of the other doctrines from all the denominations are fiddle faddle if they don"t support this.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Hezikiah 2 months ago
Hezikiah
God exists. His name is George Burns
Posted by Ihsieman 2 months ago
Ihsieman
I think that if God were to reveal himself to us, We would not be able to comprehend him, And so, Would never notice him, Therefore it is useless to reveal himself.
Posted by brodiescott76 2 months ago
brodiescott76
Why should God make himself known to everyone? Certainty is the death of faith.
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
The death of faith in your god, Especially with all those tepid viruses diseased versus you presented, Would be a very good thing.
* Why would a god use faith instead of evidence? " Matt Dillahunty
* "Why would you believe anything on faith? Faith isn"t a pathway to truth. Every religion has some sort of faith. If faith is your pathway you can"t distinguish between christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Any of these others. How is it that you use ---reason--- in every of the other endeavor in your life and then when it comes to the ultimate truth, The most important truth your"re saying that faith is required and how is that supposed to reflect on a god? What kind of a god requires faith instead of evidence? " Matt Dillahunty
* "It's called faith because it's not knowledge. " Christopher Hitchens
* "If we genuinely know something, There"s no need to take it on faith. And if you"re going to accept it on faith, Then you"re going to have to play in the arena where every other religion, Every other belief system, Every other truth claim, Playing the faith card gets equal treatment otherwise you"re being a hypocrite about faith. I think faith is a TERRIBLE way to determine what is true or not true. I don"t want to just believe. Let"s go out and know, Or try to know. And if we can"t find the answer instead of making one up or taking it on faith we say that we are simply honest with others and simply say it "I don"t know". I hope to one day know and make that JOURNEY about an evidenced based exploration of facts and a journey towards knowledge with no faith at all in play. " Seth Andrews
* You have 2 sets of parents that believe in god with dying children and they both pray exactly as hard and use exactly the same prayers. One child dies, The other doesn't. Is there justification for faith in god for the parents of the child who has died?
* "Faith is the reason people give when they don't have evidence. " Matt Dillahunty
Posted by brodiescott76 2 months ago
brodiescott76
Why should God make himself known to everyone? Certainty is the death of faith.
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