The Instigator
omar2345
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
alexstilts
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

With time anyone can change

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/16/2018 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 712 times Debate No: 119023
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

omar2345

Pro

I believe that given enough time anyone can change.

Believe: accept something is true
Change: become different apart from traits that are defined the day you are born or stuck with due to a cause and cannot be changed.

I would like anything opposing with what I said. If one point is made that I cannot refute you win, If you want to make more points then you can.
alexstilts

Con

Most people can change, You are right about this. However, Not anyone can change. No matter what you do, Some people just cannot be rehabilitated or become something they are not.

This has both positive and negative views. The most obvious negative is that if someone is a serial killer, They often cannot change. Some people are so mentally disturbed, Violent, And horrific that they just simply cannot change. This is not only a moral judgement, But a scientific fact. Once someone's brain is hardwired into a certain line of horrific thinking and actions, It is often the case that they are unable to become anything different.

There are also positive effects of this inability to change. If people's good ethics are ingrained enough into them, They are often unbreakable. A mother's love to her child is an example, Often unbreakable and unable to be changed. No matter how much you hurt or torture or brainwash or try to convince, This love very often cannot be changed. Whatever time and effort is exerted, Good people will not often change to do horribly bad things.

There are clearly degrees of change, And everyone is able to be changed in some way. However, Not everything is changeable, And not every person can be changed in a big way.
Debate Round No. 1
omar2345

Pro

Thank you for taking up this debate.

Some people just cannot be rehabilitated or become something they are not. - Can you give any examples?

serial killer, They often cannot change. - I say then can. Most if not all serial killer are not born that way instead they are conditioned in their environment to be so. Abusive parents etc. Yes they can more aggressive but aggressive people are not serial killers. A serial Killer is a gradual change. Changing a serial killer is also a gradual change.

Some people are so mentally disturbed, Violent, And horrific that they just simply cannot change. - I don't see how not. People can and do change. If that was not the case why is the 90s different then the 80s?

Once someone's brain is hardwired into a certain line of horrific thinking and actions, It is often the case that they are unable to become anything different. - I require evidence for such a claim. Everything you do makes you a different person then you were before. By you typing today you are now alexstilts which accepted this debate and was typing today.

A mother's love to her child is an example, Often unbreakable and unable to be changed. - What if her child kills her husband and rapes her? It is breakable in this instance. If this is true this absolute statement does not apply to every scenario which makes it wrong.

This love very often cannot be changed. - Love is a chemical in a brain. I am sure scientist can trigger a hateful response from the mother to her child. This would be either a pill or like you said before torture or brainwashing. Love can change.

Not everything is changeable, And not every person can be changed in a big way. - What you said does not prove me otherwise.








alexstilts

Con

It is hard to find specific scientific studies on this matter, Since this is very complicated to do studies on. Additionally, Your argument largely has to do with time, Rather than specifics of the tortment that could be involved. Let us use the example of a mother"s love. If a child raped her and murdered her spouse, That likely would cause most mothers to renounce their love. However, It would not cause all mothers to do so. Whether or not it would, It still deals with the fact that we are dealing with a human world, And extremely unlikely matters do not translate very well into the human world.

Humans have a limited amount of time spent living, And for this reason there is not an unlimited amount of time that we may draw from. However, I can give the example of POWs (prisoners of war) to show the positives of unchanging psyche. Specifically, I will refer to the late Senator John McCain. McCain spent years in a prison camp, Being tortured on an almost daily basis. The experience was horrible and horrifying, But the entire time he remained unwaveringly devoted to his country. This is seen again and again, In positive ways like with prisoners of war and negative ways like with terrorists. No matter how much you torture or how much time you give, People generally remain loyal to their principles, Even to their death.
Debate Round No. 2
omar2345

Pro

It is hard to find specific scientific studies on this matter, Since this is very complicated to do studies on. - I did not make it any better did I? Sorry.

It would not cause all mothers to do so- I require proof, Even then I think my arguments from other rebuttals still hold. More specifically look at the John McCain one and see if you would think he would not betray his principles.

It still deals with the fact that we are dealing with a human world, And extremely unlikely matters do not translate very well into the human world. - I beg the differ. Given the circumstances anyone can change. Forcing said change using drugs or through choice in a reasonable discussion. Was it not tailored to humans my discussion? I don't see how it was not self explanatory that it was about humans.

Humans have a limited amount of time spent living, And for this reason there is not an unlimited amount of time that we may draw from- My first Round argument states "given enough time anyone can change". This can happen through force or choice. Depending on the individuals willingness and if said way of changing someone's mind does work.

McCain spent years in a prison camp- I don't think he would remain loyal to his principles given the correct circumstances. I think he knew he had family waiting for him when he came back. Lets say I kept him prisoner and held his family hostage. I really likely would be able to make Senator John McCain defect and spy on the United States for the promise of one day seeing their children. If I was really good I could make sure he can only get calls with them and when the time comes when his use his over I would kill them off. I from this scenario made John McCain make him lose his prinicples on the false promise that one day he might see his family. Just a thought experiment but I think it would work.

alexstilts

Con

This argument cannot reasonably be made given the parameters you have noted. Because you are making an effectively "what if" argument, No point I make is one you cannot dispute. No matter how many prisoners of war, Terrorists, Parents, Or others unyielding to the forces of the world, You will find some way around it. Much in the same way, Although almost all people can concede that someone like the Night Stalker was absolutely insane and permanently so, You could say that not all time and effort was exerted.

For this reason, I do not believe it is possible to have this debate, As you are making arguments outside of a reasonable plane of doubt and thought.
Debate Round No. 3
omar2345

Pro

I had left it open to allow against to think of any scenario that he can deem would be impossible for someone to change.
alexstilts

Con

The flaw in the argument is the fact that most people can change, That"s the thing. Most people in most areas of life can, Will, And do change every day. Change is an essential part of being human, And we all do it.

Here, Though, Is a differentiation I will make to back up my argument: you can almost always change how someone acts, But not always how they think.

Again, My argument is being made within the real world, Assuming for time and direct changes made as the variable. To the POW example: yes, If his country disavowed him, He probably wouldn"t stick by them and would give it up, But this is unlikely. The experiment would then be in if he could be tortured or brainwashed into giving up the information that the other side wants. He may even give up some information out of sheer pain, Though even this is unlikely, But they would not change the way he was essentially processing.

This is because "brainwashing" as we know it is a hoax. (One great article about this is at this link, That I think would be good for you to explore: http://skepdic. Com/mindcont. Html) When people enter cults or similar environments, They are brainwashed, But not in the way people think. It is consensual brainwashing, Where by kindness and charisma they implant ideas. The cult plays into what they want in order to brainwash them, Rather than doing it by the direct force that many thought they were experiencing.

So what does this mean for our prisoner of war? It means that if committed enough to their country, It is often impossible to break them out of that conditioning. You saw it with Soviet spies during the Cold War as well, Who were completely loyal and undying, Being compared by many to machines. If physical force and pressure is applied, It is a negative: that painful negative may change physical outcomes, But it won"t change the way in which one thinks. Similarly, If one approaches from an angle of positivity and kindness, One will not betray everything they know and hold dear because they are given no reason of force to do so. This is a classic Catch-22.

You may even be able to change one"s actions, But you can"t always change the way they think. Someone may be blackmailed into killing someone, But they can"t be blackmailed into thinking murder is right.
Debate Round No. 4
omar2345

Pro

Yeah your right. Did not think that this was an absolute statement so that is why I made a debate around it.


thinking murder is right- If murder is the only thing you can do then it is right for your survival. An examples of this would be Purge. If your life is in danger then it is okay.

Another example of this would be if as a society we become tribalistic. Instead of progressing we regress. An example of this would the video game Fallout (whichever one in the series). The nuclear radiation did make places unhabitable and the ones that did survive were not capable of restoring the areas before the bombs dropped.

Another example of this would be if a country becomes an Anarchy state. There are no borders and you are to fend by yourself. No government to tell you off or jail you for bad actions you are not punished with murder apart from death.

blackmailed into thinking murder is right. - Just found out this was the entire sentence. I'll still keep that in if you want to read it.

This instance I would say thinking is subjective. Even if they think murder is wrong they can speak as though it is right. It doesn't matter what people think it matters what they do.




alexstilts

Con

At the end of the day: "I think therefore I am. " People are their minds above all else. You can see this in the root of the entire argument.

We may forgive people for their actions of the past if they have changed internally. The material form, The actions that they have taken in the past, Is unchanged and can never change. Why we can forgive them and acknowledge their change is entirely in the mind. No matter what you force someone to do, You can"t force someone into changing their mind.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by canis 3 years ago
canis
With time anyone can change.
No. You CAN not change. -50 c degrees can not change into +15 c degrees. .
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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