The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
7 Points

our country should be like when it started and follow the constitution and be way more conservative

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/14/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,006 times Debate No: 58934
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)




Our country has pretty much gone to hell. Obama is the worst president this country has seen in it's entire history. He has destroyed our economy, let in thousands of illegals aliens and is actually treating them better than actual citizens, promoting homosexuality and bisexuality and try-sexuality and it is all disgusting and unchristian. He should be impeached and someone should turn this country around. I love this country and i love america but i am disgusted by the way it is ran. Theirs all these twisted republicans who say that they are for the people and conservative and then they turn around and stab us in the back by having liberal views and being selfish punks. This country really needs another Reagan or George Washington. The government is trying to take Christianity out of everything so they can have even more control and take away our god given rights. I am completely disgusted with the leaders of this country right now.


There is no structure so I shall just begin my argument. I will start with a refutation.

Pro's assumptions: 1.America was and is a Christian nation.
2.Non-heterosexuality is gross/ wrong.
3. Conservatism is always good for America.
4.Immigration hurts America
All of these are completely false.
My Round 1 Points: C1. America is not a Christian nation and never has been.
C2. Rights for homosexuals is good/moral
C3. Conservatism is not always.
C4. Immigration is good for the economy
(as stated, I will start with refutations and I shall offer positive arguments for liberalism and that the founding fathers had liberal views in my subsequent round)

C1:America Is Not Now, Nor Has It Ever Been A Christian Nation:
There is an important distinction to be made here. There is a difference between the majority of individuals in a nation being a particular religion and the government operating under the direction of the particular religion. The majority of Americans have always been christian, but the government has always functioned in a secular manner.
C1.A: The Treaty Of Tripoli: Article 11: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

This excerpt explicitly states America is not a Christian nation.

C1.B: The Founding Father You Cited And Many Others Were Not Christian:
George Washington: George Washington always bashed religon:
1"....I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."
2."Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause.[George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792]"
3."Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.[George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792; from George Seldes, ed.,The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 726]"

Thomas Jefferson: Jefferson was undeniably a deist.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

" The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

C1.C: Seperation Of Church And State: Any country that has a seperation of church and state (non-theocratic) is not a christian nation or any other religion nation.

The First Amendment: " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

C2: Homosexuality Is Natural Thus Not Immoral, So There Is No Need To Penalize Obama For Being Pro-Homosexual Rights:
(I assume you are speaking in regards to Obama's advocation of homosexual rights, so I will argue under those terms, correct me if I'm wrong)
Morality Action :
That which promotes the most well being.

(If you disagree with my definition, please let me know and offer a better definition)

P1) We should promote well being
P2) Giving Homosexuals equal rights promotes greater well being than denying them rights.
C1) Obama is justified in advocating homosexual rights.

I assume you agree with P1, and and the conclusion follows from P2. So we shall have to investigate P2.

The legalization of gay marriage would result in the greatest well being of others, thus it is moral.

R = P * [(I * D ) + (F * E) - (X * E)]
In case you are unfamiliar with the Utilitarian calculus, I shall explain.

R is results
I is intensity (scale of 1 to 10)
D is duration (scale of 1 to 10 for simplicity)
F is fecundity(1 to 10)
E is Extent ( 1 to 10 for simplicity)
X is Impurity
(I changed the scale to avoid Gregg Cantor and set theory)

Lets assign I a fair value of 8; All gay people would be happy and 60% of people in general want to recognize gay marriage.
Let's assign duration a value of 1o because the pleasure derived from the legalization of gay marriage does not have an end. All further generations of gay individuals will be happy as well, in addition to the joyful heterosexuals.
Let's assign F a value of 8; The legalization of gay marriage would lead to the well being of lots of others (gay and straight, however I must recognize some will be unhappy, however the number of happy will decrease with time.
E shall take on a value of 9. A great number of people would be affected, however a very small minority may not care.
X shall have a value of 2. This is derived from the value of I. The furthest extent of the scale - I=X

R = P * [(I * D ) + (F * E) - (X * E)]
R= (8x10) + (8x9)- (2x9)
80+72= 152

This displays that gay marriage legalization is more moral than illegalization. The only way this could be untrue is if we drastically alter the value of I and X. Which you shall have to argue, if you wish to.

C3: Sometimes Conservative Presidents Really Screw Things Up REALLY BAD:

Hoover Attacking The Bonus Army:
Herbert Hoover sent infantry, cavalry, and even tanks against ragged, hungry veterans and their wives and children, he confirmed a suspicion among ordinary Americans that he was heartless. This created a grand distrust for the government and particularly conservative republicans. THIRTY years passed before another republican entered office. Hoover brought shame to America.

The Watergate scandal was a major political scandal that occurred in the United States in the 1970s as a result of the June 17, 1972 break-in at the Democratic National Committ
ee headquarters at the Watergate office complex in Washington, D.C., and the Nixon administration's attempted cover-up of its involvement. When the conspiracy was discovered and investigated by the US Congress, the Nixon administration's resistance to its probes led to a constitutional crisis. This really really caused Americans to distrust their government.

Bush :( :

Drove the deficit :
This chart from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities shows how the Bush tax cuts are likely to continue be a major driver of federal budget deficits 20 years after they were first passed.

2. Fueled income inequality: This chart from the Congressional Research Service suggests that the Bush tax cuts, which significantly reduce top marginal tax rates and capital gains rates, helped widen income inequality in the 2000s.
C4: Immigration has good economic effects: It is said that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes, this is untrue but I guess it is fair to say they don't pay equal tax. I'm not sure what a "Fair share" is, I would argue the top 1% don't pay enough, but that's a different point. Obviously legalized immigrants will pay more taxes if legalized.
The taxes from immigrants being legalized will result in a GDP growth of 0.3%-0.8%(80-150 billion dollars). Each legalized immigrant would contribute $10,000-$17,000. Contribution= (X-Y)
X=Addition to economy
(Parameters obtained from three studies).

Wages: Wages would increases for newly legalized and natives.
Y=Newly legalized
Wage: X$74-$162^
CAP: X: NA(but given Y, it's safe to assume some kind of increase)
{X,Y}: 10 years: 0.1% decrease: 20 years: 0.5%^

Job Creation:
IPC: 83,500 jobs created.
CAP: 121,000 jobs created
CBO: (2014-2023): 600,000 jobs created per year!

In my next round I will argue:
1. Conservative policy is outdated
2. Conservative policy is harmful
3. Liberal policies are beneficial
4. Obama is not that bad
5. Our founding fathers were not as conservative as you would think

Debate Round No. 1


Grant84football forfeited this round.


I have a feeling my opponent isn't going to debate, I'll make few points just in case.

When the country started, slavery was legal. I think this constitutes a good enough reason not to revert back to 1787 policy.
There was also no first national bank.

Obama’s success rate in winning congressional votes on issues was an unprecedented 96.7% for his first year in office.
He has reduced the defecit. He combated poverty and created jobs. The stock market is doing well.

Well BoP is on you pro.
Debate Round No. 2


Grant84football forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


Grant84football forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4


Grant84football forfeited this round.


BoP unfulfilled
vote con :)
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by StopBabyKilling 7 years ago
Hmm. It would difficult to argue that utiltarianism is a distinct system of morals, as it could be the result of some moral systems and the basis of others. I guess one proposed basis for such is "do unto others as you would have them do to you".
Posted by KhalifV 7 years ago
Utilitarianism is the best available moral system. I would love to hear your inept alternative.
Posted by StopBabyKilling 7 years ago
Attempting to apply a cockamamie (real word) formula to compute the goodness of any belief is fruitless, because the factors in the computation are arbitrary and subject to personal opinion as are the values assigned to the factors. Just because some supposed expert has dreamed up a formula, it does not mean the formula or any formula, for something that is unquantifiable, has any validity.
Posted by StopBabyKilling 7 years ago
It is false that conservatives believe that America is or should be officially Christian or any other creed or no creed at all. Freedom of religion is one of the core freedoms they view as essential to human dignity and pursuit of happiness.
Posted by StopBabyKilling 7 years ago
Under some circumstances, legal immigration can be good for the economy. Illegal immigration never is. Illegal immigrants bypass the normal filtering designed to prevent criminals, gang bangers, people with infectious diseases, people who can never get a job and will be permanently on the welfare roles, terrorists, enemy military, the violent mentally ill, and spies from entering the country.

According to the State of Texas, the 50,000 illegal immigrants entering across its southern border in the last few months caused 8000 homicides. Texas and other Mexican border states are flooded with illegal immigrant crime.

Also, the principle that it is not in the best interests of the country to accept the entire tidal wave of immigrants who could pass these filters, has always been part of our immigration policy. Without this policy, in ten years, the number of immigrants entering could exceed the current population. Hence, we limit the number of immigrants who qualify through preferences to the better educated, skilled, employable, those with vocations that will fill job-skill shortages, and other characteristics that will benefit the nation.
Posted by StopBabyKilling 7 years ago
The 2008-9 demise of the economy had nothing to do with Bush or his policies. In fact, he warned against the Progressive-driven regulations on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which caused it. These were an inept attempt to correct inequality in housing by reducing the income, credit, and employment, requirements for mortgages, hugely increasing the people who could not pay their mortgages, causing the banking crisis as house prices leveled off.

The income difference between earners is not a good measure of economic well being. It is possible, even likely, that all will be better off when the most well off are. The money, as a fraction of the economy, that the Government takes is highly correlated with lower family spending and business profits, which drive growth and low unemployment. As a result, non-conservative high taxes play a greater role in increasing the plight of the poor, than income difference.

Another highly correlated relationship is between the number of single mothers at any point and the number of very poor and the size of the prison population. Thus non-conservative mores increase the number criminals and the very poor.

These factors effect the economy much more than Bush's, small impact by benign neglect. Conversely, Obama's progressive ideology-driven policies have a great negative impact. The huge increases in family health care outlays due to Obamacare, the disastrous stimulus law, his 441 increased or new taxes, his spending more and faster than any human in history, when the debt is our greatest threat, and his crushing new regulation on business, hurt the people immeasurably.

His leftist refusal to enforce immigration law and open borders has caused uncontrolled influx of drug smugglers, criminals, anchor babies, and permanent welfare recipients.

Thus, at every turn, progressive policy has proved to harm us and conservative policy has helped us immeasurably.
Posted by Preston 7 years ago
should have just brought up slavery, no need for the over kill argument.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by YaHey 7 years ago
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: FF and BoP unfulfilled

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